[Jay Flemma]

I'm doing a piece on this for Golf Observer.  Some of my faves include winged foot, riviera, garden city, and carnoustie and st. andrews.

Which are great, which are ??, which are interesting, which are bland...

[PCCraig]

The 18th at TCC-Brookline.

The front greenside bunker dictates all play on the hole. The green is super sloped back to front. Anything long is dead as you can't hold a pitch on the green and short isn't fun from the bunker...but is a better miss, just ask Curtis Strange as he purposely aimed for it in the Open there in 1988.

[Anthony Gray]

  PB

[Jaeger Kovich]

Anthony you beat me to it... Pebble was the first that came to my mind. Talk about about heroic style architecture. The tree in the fairway and a cape style hole. Waves crashing against the walls.

[Mark Pritchett]

I like the 18th at Augusta.  It is certainly not an easy par, yet it has been birdied to win the tournament a few times.  A tough driving hole under pressure and I like the fact that it does not have any water.   

[Carl Nichols]

I'm doing a piece on this for Golf Observer.  Some of my faves include winged foot, riviera, garden city, and carnoustie and st. andrews.

Which are great, which are ??, which are interesting, which are bland...

When was the last time Garden City hosted a major?

[Jay Flemma]

1902.  1908 if you count the Amateur.

[JLahrman]

I like the 18th at Augusta.  It is certainly not an easy par, yet it has been birdied to win the tournament a few times.  A tough driving hole under pressure and I like the fact that it does not have any water.  

As the 18th hole of a major championship, I like it a great deal.  3s are common, but so are 5s.  Too many of the other courses have a 72nd hole that really only have two likely outcomes for the pro - par/bogey or birdie/par.  Anything can happen on the 18th at Augusta.

[David Kelly]

The original 18th hole on the Blue course that Congressional used in the 1997 U.S. Open was a dud as a finisher. We'll see how they set up the former 17th now current 18th hole in 2011.  It can certainly be a ball-buster.

[Carl Nichols]

I'd use examples they've played in the last 100 years.   

The now current 18th hole at Congressional is a great example of how technology has affected the game.  As the 17th hole in the 1997 Open, it played really tough -- and would've been a great finisher because of the green and the pond.  More recently, it's been basically driver-wedge for most of the guys in Tiger's tournament.  They're now adding (or have added -- haven't been out there this year) a tee that's WAY back from the current back tees. 

[Cristian]

How about Carnoustie?

[Cliff Hamm]

I've always thought the 18th at Baltusrol was very underated.  I actually think it is better than 17.  Do wish the green was more undulating and the Rees Jones bunkers on the right need to go.  At the same time it is an excellent finishing hole.  I remember Nicklaus saying that everyone but him thought he had it won against Aoki in 1980 - Jack was not a great wedge player and feared his wedge over the bunker.  Anyway, an excellent and exciting finishing hole.

[Chip Gaskins]

Great = Oakmont, Merion

WTF! = Carnoustie

Interesting = Olympic

Bland =  Turnberry, Augusta, Royal Portrush, Pinehurst #2, Congressional

[Chuck Brown]

Jay, you and I have discussed the problematic 18 at Oakland Hills-South.

It is a Par 5 for the members. A converted Par 4 for majors.  By itself, that means nothing to me.  There are probably more great Par 4.5's than Par 5's in the world.  (ANGC #13, versus HTGL #15, for example.)

The problem with 18 at OHCC (or maybe it was intended) is that instead of the racetrack-like curve of the fairway at ANGC #13, banked to help a well-struck ball, the 18th fairway at OHCC sort cants in the wrong direction.  I seem to remember Tom Doak (I think?) make that observation.  I do think that OHCC 18 presents a unique challenge and that it really is a par 4 that is a 4.5, which is psychologically much different than a Par 5 that is a 4.5.  You could call it anything, and it would still be what it is.  I think that if it were a 5, and we had lots of players shooting for birdies and eagles, it would somehow be psychologically more thrilling than the struggle for pars and bogeys.
The green at OHCC 18 is a wonder of a setting (they recently tore down the old halfway shack behind it) and a superb, original Ross green.

[Ron Csigo]

I'd use examples they've played in the last 100 years.   

The now current 18th hole at Congressional is a great example of how technology has affected the game.  As the 17th hole in the 1997 Open, it played really tough -- and would've been a great finisher because of the green and the pond.  More recently, it's been basically driver-wedge for most of the guys in Tiger's tournament.  They're now adding (or have added -- haven't been out there this year) a tee that's WAY back from the current back tees. 

I was out at Congressional earlier this year and per my host, they are planning to build another back tee box adding an additional 50-60 yards from the current back tee for the 2011 US Open.  This new back tee box will literally be up against the property fence and a walk across one of the fairways of the Gold course. 

[Carl Nichols]

Brad Klein thinks that 18 at Congressional is a great hole, but that it would be even better with a new tee 40+ yards back from the current tee (which would make the hole approx. 506 yards).  That, as Ron mentions, is exactly what they're planning to do (almost all the way back to Persimmon Tree Road!).  See:

http://www.golfweek.com/lifestyles/features/story/klein-design-congressional-062909 

[Michael Ryan]

For those of you who were/are against the changes at Congressional where the 18th hole par 3 was flipped to create the new par 3 10th, my google earth image of Congressional hasn't been updated, so I'm still looking at the hole that Ernie Els won the US Open on...

Having played Congressional a few times only since the renovation, I'm happy with any change that makes the old 17th the true closing hole as I think it's a fantastic finisher. 

Mike

[Tim Gavrich]

How about Torrey Pines?  Baltusrol?

[Phil McDade]

The Old Course.

A half-par hole with a great strategic choice on the tee of staying right, risking OB, but easier than negotiating the Valley of Sin. Subtle green, with some tough front pin positions.

Incomparable setting.

[Steve Lapper]

Jay,

  Wouldn't you had to have played them to comment on them? If, however, you haven't, Merion, Southern Hills, WFW, Riveria, Prairie Dunes, Oakmont and Shinnecock are among the best finishing fours in the game.

[Ross Tuddenham]

What about winged foot, Monty and Phil or even Furyk might not agree?

But it shows anything from 4 to 6 is a distinct possibility.

[Jay Flemma]

Lapps, I've played a bunch of them, and covered tournaments at others:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=1850

That was also at golfobserver.com.

Chuck, if I might have the temerity to make a suggestion, I'd love to see OHCC shave down all the rough everywhere and see where all the fairway contours that are covered in rough now send the ball on that hole, so guys have more shots than just a center line off the tee?  Would that help the situation you outline.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm doing a piece on this for Golf Observer.  Some of my faves include winged foot, riviera, garden city, and carnoustie and st. andrews.

Which are great, which are ??, which are interesting, which are bland...

Jay,

I think the dilema in answering lies in the context of match or medal play, amateur/club golf or PGA Tour golf.

For example, I don't recall any birdies on # 18 in the final round at BPB.
In addition, I found the hole sufficiently challenging when I played it.

Many of these golf course were crafted when golf was ALL about match play.

It's ONLY with the advent of medal play and TV that the 18th hole has taken on heightened significance in terms of determining the outcome.

I'm a big fan of the 18th holes at NGLA and Sebonack, relatively short par 5's.
I know that Tom Doak and Jack Nicklaus wanted the 18th to be a difficult par 4, but, who trods those fairways most, members and guests who are amateurs and probably mid to high handicappers, or PGA tour pros playing in an event ?

Hollywood has a great finishing hole, as does Mt Ridge, however, Mt Ridge's current 18th used to be the 9th, and the current 9th, old 18th, was a short par 5.

Baltusrol's Upper has a great 18th.

When you look at the great 18th holes at some of the old clubs hosting events, most of them have been lengthened considerably over the years.  In their original form they would be pushovers.

[Tim Pitner]

Jay,

I concur with your take on Torrey Pines #18. 

Your piece seems a little overly dismissive of the 18th holes at Open Championship courses.  After Carnoustie and St. Andrews, they all look the same?  Really?  It seems like a comment from someone who hasn't played much links golf or doesn't know the courses very well.  While perhaps not great, the finishers at Muirfield and Royal Lytham strike me as solid holes. 

[Jay Flemma]

Jay,

I concur with your take on Torrey Pines #18. 

Your piece seems a little overly dismissive of the 18th holes at Open Championship courses.  After Carnoustie and St. Andrews, they all look the same?  Really?  It seems like a comment from someone who hasn't played much links golf or doesn't know the courses very well.  While perhaps not great, the finishers at Muirfield and Royal Lytham strike me as solid holes. 

Actually those comments were from two British journalists who have covered many open championships, and from two of America's most venerable journalists, including a past winner of the GWAA lifetime achievement award.  We're not saying they are bad, but they look the same.  Even the brit said that in the open rota 17th holes seem to be better or more interesting.

No doubt, Muirfield and Lytham are good...but are they truly great?  memorable as compared to other holes on the same course?  Which is better?  What about troon?  is it possible that the differences between those holes are so slight, that they don't stand out among each other? 

OK, Tim, what are the great finishers on the Rota to you?  Why?

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