[Peter Pallotta]

Being a sand hill junkie, especially in areas east of the Mississippi, and having had walked similar sites in the vicinity of Pine Valley, I would tend to think that the appearance in the photo depicts more of an attempt to restore the disturbance after its initial clearing.

Pulling stumps creates quite a disturbance....that is if they chose to....and the option of leaving them in and covering them over is another....or a combination of burying stumps and covered debris piles is another possibility....or all of the above combined with burning and bury holes that creates extra sand material.

I'm not sure if we should pull the crack Merion Forensic Crew in to help answer this.....I'd just let sleeping stumps lie.

Paul - thanks, that makes perfect sense. But of course, why wouldn't it?

Hope all is well

Peter

[George Pazin]

The old one certainly looked a lot more Hellish, no? The cleared out one looks downright playable!

[Norbert P]

My intention is to walk. Kalen's to ride. Am I nutso or what?

The longer that you can stay away from those things the longer you'll have the option.  If you're walkin', my two bucks are on you.
But if it's hot, don't kill yourself being a martyr. Rent a rolling couch.  I do think that Kalen competing against you, while riding, skews the results somewhat. I.e., if he wins, you'll decry "use of outside forces" and "not playing the game the pros play"; and if you win he'll holler "Garland is a heretic and was possessed by the spirit of Young Tom", or "He's juicin'!".

Anyway, have fun, wear a big brim hat, snarl and grumble at each other, talk smack, and fix your ball marks. I'll try to make it out for the big showdown.

[Norbert P]

I modified the original question as I think we've come up with the answer that, yes, it was shaped. Thanks for input.

So, where in the world does a sibling exist that compares to Hell's Half Acre?  And do you appreciate the feature/concept?

[RJ_Daley]

Norby, I'm not sure what aspects of comparison you are looking for.  Do you mean waste like that that must be do or die all carry?  If it is just a matter of other waste-sand, man made areas of similar size, well wouldn't the space between 4 and 14 of Chambers Bay with partial carry if you are to be very agressive, be a comparable?  I tried the Google planimeter, and got 14 acres!  On the other hand, the natural sand-waste area on left side of Sand Hills 18, where the wind mill is located, is looking like around 2.7 acres, conservatively measured.  The Dismal River satelite photo isn't up yet, but I think they have a doozy of waste out there as well.  similarly, the totally created moonscape between 4 and 5 of Whistling Straits is about 35 acres and the functional potential big hitter carry on 5 takes in about 3.5 acres. 

[RJ_Daley]

Now that I think more about it, it would be interesting if anyone who has played both PV and Tobacco Road, would make any comparisons of the carry off tee on #15 TR with PVs HHA.  I got that one measured at 3.5 acres.  Then 6 acres of carry to the par 3 17th that is all or nothing, and 3.7 acres of must carry off tee shot on 18, clearing the waste and sand cliff of sorts.  Then there is the short par 4 with safe fairway to right and all carry on the hero line to green on TRs #5 that measures 10 acres, and 3-4 acres carry on the second shot of 4, and the tee shot of 2 there.  

But, walking off tee on 15 first made me wonder how comparable that particular area, with it's waste scrub of love grass, and pine surrounds might be like PV - HHA.  Maybe TR is the common man's PV?  

[Norbert P]

Dick, thanks, those are some fine examples. I'll have to image search the Tobacco Road feature you talk about.

Here's the oft presented hole at Tetherow - #17.  


I like the look of it but it seems to need a bigger bailout and why did they put that tall grass knob in the approach apron (just behind the flag)?

Dick, I'm not sure of my motive for asking this question but I don't hear it talked about much or repeated on courses excessively.
Hell's HA is penal, to be sure, such is that at Tetherow. Chambers Bay . . . more strategic and aesthetic in a lunar motif.
There's one at Wine Valley (par 5, 15th) that makes the hole a dry "Cape" hole, so it is both avoidable, escapable and taunting. There was plenty of shaping within it, mostly to retain sand and add depth and character. It doesn't have sand in it yet, though, so a picture might be deceiving.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The 14th at Blue Heron Pines near Atlantic City, NJ is an imitation:

[Michael Dugger]

Mr. Norbypoo,

As you are well aware, I adore the wasteland feature.  Just love it!

Always loved this one at Hidden Creek.

[Michael Dugger]

Here's a beaut from Pronghorn Faz, this is the opening cape tee shot....

[Michael Dugger]

5th at Tobacco Road

[CJ Carder]

There's also this spot on #11 at Tobacco Road.  Granted it's not a perfect match because it's very playable to go up the left side and around, which I don't believe you can do at Pine Valley.



Then there's the 2nd shot on the par 5 4th that could potentially be a relative.  This picture does an ok job of showing the carry, but it's a bit zoomed in too.  Of course here, the option is to simply play out to the right and come in at the hole from a different angle.



I can think of a few other places at Tobacco Road, but nothing that I think truly matches the shot difficulty that I imagine exists at PV (i.e. solid drive and then very solid 2nd shot - knowing what awaits you for the 2nd puts added pressure to the first).

[archie_struthers]

 


If memory serves me , which it usually does relative to yardage at PV only   ....it is 106 yards across Hell's Half Acre  (shortest point to point)

[Michael Dugger]

Fazio's Pine Barrens has some neat wasteland hazards IMHO....

[Michael Dugger]

Pronghorn Faz...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here's an old photo of Hell's Half Acre on #7 at Pine Valley GC.  It seems much more agitated in its contours than later photos. Was it softened by wind? Maintenance practice? Other?  Or are these convolutions still as prevalent? (I've never been there.)

Slag, Thanks for the great photo.

With thousands upon thousands of golfers trodding HHA over the last 90 years, one has to believe that the contours have been softened by man and Mother Nature.

Photos circa 1922 seem to show a pronounced high right to low left cant to HHA, one that's far less pronounced today.

In looking at the surrounding/flanking/fronting/backing terrain, I tend to agree with Tom Doak with respect to man's hand in the shaping of the feature.

Baltusrol Lower's 17th has a mini version, but at the moment, I can't remember any course with such an extensive interuption between fairways.[/b]


If these internal shapes were manmade, what were the inspirations for them?  Were they practically designed for sand retention or other considerations?

Drainage comes to mind.

[Norbert P]

Great examples y'all.  Those are some fascinating creations on wastelands.   I really like the ones at Bandon Trails #7 and #10 -- seems I'm always in it -- especially being that I'm a bunker slut and I'm not ashamed to do a bunker more than once. Those wastelands always take me back to the look and feel of Australia's bunkers.

                                      

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