"Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Do you think it might have helped if the gent played a mix bag of tee boxes as opposed
to playing only from one continually fixed point of boxes ?

I have a guy I can play with regularly -- who insists on playing two steps from the end of the
tips and can barely reach the fairway on a number of the top tier layouts ... he'd rather enjoy
the self-inflicted punishment than in moving up on a few tees for certain holes.

Like you said -- so be it.

[Doug Wright]

Doug:

Do you think it might have helped if the gent played a mix bag of tee boxes as opposed
to playing only from one continually fixed point of boxes ?

I have a guy I can play with regularly -- who insists on playing two steps from the end of the
tips and can barely reach the fairway on a number of the top tier layouts ... he'd rather enjoy
the self-inflicted punishment than in moving up on a few tees for certain holes.

Like you said -- so be it.

Matt,

Certainly. He could easily play from the same tees as the group on PV #3, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 18 (always a 3 shotter for this fellow) while moving forward on the rest. I've recently seen some courses (I think Four Mile Ranch is one) where they have a "composite' course on the card that mixes tees. This can be helpful I think in legitimizing this practice.   

[Ken Moum]

I trust those that can't enjoy a course much longer than 5192 have no intention of playing TOC.

You overlooked my description of the course as American-style soft and green.

My wife loved Dornoch, and Brora, and North Berwick, and TOC, and The New, and The Jubilee etc., etc.

But at Dornoch, she hit a driver off the deck from 225 that ended up on the green, rolling the last 70+ yards. She turned to me and said, "I LOVE a fast golf course."

And she's never read a word on GCA.com.


K

[Ken Moum]

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to be forced to play longer tees at TOC and give up golf out of frustration. I could only find the medal tees distance there at around 6700. I suspect the shortest tees might be around 6300, which would be undue burden on someone, especially after having been decarted.

I had to get out my scorecards.

TOC is actually 6032 from the red markers, and Par 76.

Dornoch is 5956, par 76

Brora is 5273, par 71 -- but it's only 5872 from the Gent's tees

The New is 5992, par 75

Jubilee is 5573, par 71

Nairn is 5735, par 75

But the point is that these all play much, much shorter than the typical American course. Alice Dye is who first noted that women needed courses under 5,000 yards, thanks to changes in the way we maintain them

If you think it would be as much fun to just adjust par, go play an 8,000 yard course a few times.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Apologies, Jim K, if you feel this is rehashing tired material. I will continue to rehash this as long as folks respond to course criticism with "Play the appropriate tees".

George,
My reply was just an observation.
I just don't think that there are more than a few people on this site who hold 'that' view, and the ones that do have held it forever. They will never change and that should be evident after the numerous threads on this topic.

Please keep after them if you must, I wouldn't waste my time.

[Bill_McBride]

I trust those that can't enjoy a course much longer than 5192 have no intention of playing TOC.

Shirley you jest.   

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to be forced to play longer tees at TOC and give up golf out of frustration. I could only find the medal tees distance there at around 6700. I suspect the shortest tees might be around 6300, which would be undue burden on someone, especially after having been decarted.

The visitor tees play around 6200 if I'm not mistaken,  The way back tees are about 6800 and there are Open championship tees on the New and Eden courses to stretch the course out for that event.

It plays even shorter as it's so fast and firm as a rule.

[John Moore II]

Looks like the latest database hiccup lost my response.

Sorry JKM! I didn't get all the way to the end before responding. The second paragraph seemed to be discussing a course separate from the first and I didn't finish reading it. My apologies.

I would point out that there are lots of non-housing development courses with this problem. Since there is around 2000 yards between long and short tees, it is often possible to walk >100 yards between each green and the next tee, which can be over 1/4 the length of the walk.

The second paragraph was discussing a different course from the first. The first I described had short walks most of the time and was not run through a housing development. Now for someone playing the forward tees, yes, the walk from green to tee may be substantial. However, if we make courses with length, that will be the case, unless we have the back tees play at a different angle from the front tees (making for a long walk for those playing farther back) or have it play somewhat in range of hitting a ball onto the previous green (something of a safety risk).

I think the bottom line is that its fairly difficult to design and build a course that allows for short walks for all golfers and a highly enjoyable and moderately challenging experience for all golfers. At some point, you just can't have everything.

One of the most walkable courses I've ever played was Pinehurst #3. However, that course less than 6000 yards from the back tee and has only 2 sets of tees. So in that way, its fairly walkable for everyone. But if a good player goes there and actually plays well, he or she could shoot 64 or 65 and not feel like the played exceptional. I think I shot around 77 and felt like I played like crap from the first tee onward.

Without dangerous tee shots or something very funky done to add angles to the tees, its very difficult to design a course walkable for all and challenging for all.

But think of this, if the course, from the back tees, is 7000 yards with an average of 15 yards between each tee, then the person playing the up tees has to walk no farther to play the course than does someone playing the back tees. The problem comes when courses are designed either on less than stellar property resulting in walks about river beds, etc., or designed through neighborhoods. That is when you get the very long walks.

[Carl Johnson]

Regarding what George is talking about, however, I believe John K. Moore summed it up perfectly, as such:

"For some people, tee selection can make a difference while for others it amounts to nearly nothing."

As for how many fall on each side, we can agree to disagree.. it really doesn't matter.  The point that I take from George's topic here is that it's silly to say ALL HIGH HANDICAPPERS MUST MOVE UP.  That is indeed silly.  This will help some get more enjoyment, but will do nothing for others.

This is indeed the main thrust of my point. For that reason, I think it is silly to simply say "Play the appropriate tees" when one questions a course's suitability for HHers.

One pet peeve: Most posters seem to conflate HHers with beginners. There are plenty of us who can hit the ball airborne damn near all the time, we simply lack the consistency that comes with frequent play to score well. Shooting 100 rarely means you are struggling to get the ball airborne. Shooting in the 90s means one extra shot per hole - maybe a chip and 2 putt instead of 1 putt, maybe 3 putting instead of 2, etc. One of my biggest eye-opening rounds was when I got placed with a threesome of guys, one of whom shot in the 70s, the other two in the 80s. I was much longer than all three, and the gentleman who shot in the 70s was the shortest hitting by quite a bit (also the straightest and best chipper/putter, no surprise he could score well). It just amplified to me the shortcomings of the multiple tee theory.

Apologies, Jim K, if you feel this is rehashing tired material. I will continue to rehash this as long as folks respond to course criticism with "Play the appropriate tees".

By what standard does one determine the "appropriate" tees for high handicappers (or mid or low handicappers, for that matter)?  Speed of play, which is somewhat objective (and presumably has implications for others on the course)?  The high handicapper's own enjoyment of the game, which is entirely subjective?  What difference does tee selection make, and why is it important, anyway?  Or is their some other measure of "appropriateness"?  Doesn't it depend on the context?

The senior inter-club league in Charlotte that I am involved with has gone back and forth in recent years on whether our matches should be played from relatively longer or relatively shorter sets of tees, using three sets for each inter-club match, based on handicap of the highest handicap competitor in the individual two-ball matches (for example, single digit competitors play from the longest set, and 20's and above from the shortest).  For the past couple of years the baseline tees, used for 10 to 19 handicappers, has been in the 6,000 to 6,100 range.  Just last week the league board voted to jack that up to tees in the 6,300 to 6,400 range (without regard to slope, which some argue is an equally important consideration).  As you can imagine, this vote has already generated a lot of discussion among the players about what is "appropriate" for the lower to higher handicap players in our league.  If any of you can tell me how we should determine the "appropriate" tees for our matches (again, for players from low single digit hc's to the 30's), please let me know.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I think the bottom line is that its fairly difficult to design and build a course that allows for short walks for all golfers and a highly enjoyable and moderately challenging experience for all golfers. At some point, you just can't have everything.
...

JKM,

Read what they are saying above. They play courses easy to walk and have only two sets of tees and they have a BALL!.
Something most have gone awry with the GCAofA dictates.

[Wayne_Freedman]

My rule of thumb...play the tees that are reasonable, but make you a little uncomfortable.

[Garland Bayley]

Carl,

Appropriate tees are when competitors play from the same place. If they are high handicappers playing from the way backs, or low handicappers playing the infamous 5192 tees, it's appropriate as long as they competitors are faced with the same test.

[John Moore II]

...
I think the bottom line is that its fairly difficult to design and build a course that allows for short walks for all golfers and a highly enjoyable and moderately challenging experience for all golfers. At some point, you just can't have everything.
...

JKM,

Read what they are saying above. They play courses easy to walk and have only two sets of tees and they have a BALL!.
Something most have gone awry with the GCAofA dictates.

Garland I get what people are saying. I've played courses that have only 2 sets of tees; I mentioned Pinehurst #3 as one. However, I can say, speaking for myself, that I would bore of playing that course every day. I understand I am not an 'average' golfer by any definition, but without another course nearby, I don't think a course like #3 has enough everyday appeal to keep enough people coming back day after day to be profitable, at least not in America. #3 works well because there are 4 others that play out of the main clubhouse so the members have variety.

[Garland Bayley]

JKM,

I'm not knowledgeable about #3, but I say get a ball that spins like the old balatas, and go out on #3 and have a ball. Play Chi Chi ball and curve every shot. See how you can bend it around bunkers, etc.

[John Moore II]

JKM,

I'm not knowledgeable about #3, but I say get a ball that spins like the old balatas, and go out on #3 and have a ball. Play Chi Chi ball and curve every shot. See how you can bend it around bunkers, etc.

You can only do that so many times. I'd love to be a member of a multi-course club that had a course like #3 then one like #4 (I won't say a course like #2 because thats just a 1 in a thousand type course). That would make it always interesting.
(good, that makes my 2000th post. now i can go to bed)

[Garland Bayley]

...
If you think it would be as much fun to just adjust par, go play an 8,000 yard course a few times.

Must admit you had me there for a bit. Then I remembered telling about playing the ladies from the ladies tees and matching my 4 iron to their driver so limiting drives to the 4 iron, I could beat a lady with a lower handicap that way from her tees. Related that on this board and got told I was cheating, because when she was approaching with a 7 iron I was hitting wedge. Was told to go get cayman balls to play against the ladies with. I did just that and had a ball. Easily puts the course at equivaltent to 8000 yards. 340 yards became my reachable in two par 5. Any longer par 4s were like birdiable par 5s. Even have two par 6s and and a par 7.

[Rob Rigg]

It's kind of funny - a lot of my family in Ireland play the same course fifty to a hundred times a year and there are only two sets of tees. Nobody seems to get tired of playing the course - it's all good craic and the membership has been happy for over a hundred years. And this is a country course, not Ballybunion or Lahinch.

Either they are missing something - or the A.D.D. golfers on this side of the pond are missing something if they need 5 sets of tees to make their home course interesting.

As with most things golf, I tend to think they have it right over there.

[Sean_A]

When I was in early 20's still learning how to play, I could drive 280 easy, but I was still a 20+ handicapper because I never knew where the drive was going and my short game was atrocious.

It really is not that rare, especially today with 460cc drivers. A lot of strong young (late teens) kids just learning how to play can hit very long ways, but still play to a high handicap.

Richard

I don't know which world you inhabit, but a 280 drive from where I stand is rare and much more rare from a high capper.  I think this is similar to wind.  Because high numbers are chucked around so often people just begin to believe they often play in 40 mph winds and hit it 275. 

Eventually you folks will figure out that golf is not about length.  Golf is about getting the ball in the hole. 

Ciao

[Doug Siebert]

I have never understood why this topic comes up so frequently whenever golf is discussed.  Playing from the wrong tees gets blamed for slow play, lack of fun, all sorts of architectural mischief....next it'll be the cause of the financial collapse (too much debt from courses costing more to build those extra sets of tees!)

So long as someone isn't impeding others' enjoyment of the course, who cares what tees they play from?  Yeah, it sucks if you see someone struggling and you know they'd probably enjoy it more if they could overcome their aversion to moving up, but in the end that's their problem, not mine.

Everyone's game is unique, and some people's games aren't going to be affected a whole lot by changing tees.  Handicap itself is a poor way to measure where you should be hitting from - as we all know golf is a wonderful game because there are so many different ways to suck!  Lack of distance is not even a leading cause of why people are stuck in the 20+ handicap range, IMHO.  I've played with some old farts who I can outdrive with a 7 iron who shoot near par on courses in the 6600-6700 yard range because they make every shot count.

As for crazy ideas like 36 5 irons is the proper length, what the heck does the length of one's 5 iron have to do with the length of course they should be playing?  Let's say you hit it 190, there are a lot of ways to create a 6800 yard course, if its a hilly windy site, narrow with lots of trouble and par 70 then its going to be all pretty much any golfer can handle.  If its wide open, F&F, and at elevation then 6800 could almost be the women's tees.  I think my rule of "if you find yourself hitting mostly fairway woods to par 4s move up, if you find yourself hitting mostly wedges move back" makes more sense as far as taking the course itself into account, though I guess it suffers from not being something you can use before you play a course for the first time.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Can I just ask a question; is there a noticeable difference between teeing systems (number of tee’s etc) in the US and the UK.  I have played a couple of courses in the US but a while ago so don’t remember.

[Scott Warren]

I think my rule of "if you find yourself hitting mostly fairway woods to par 4s move up, if you find yourself hitting mostly wedges move back" makes more sense as far as taking the course itself into account.

That would make sense if all architects designed all golf holes for the green to be approached with a mid iron. But they don't. Sometimes they intended for the golfer to be in hybrid territory for the approach, other greens are receptive only to a short iron or wedge.

If they are using tees that allow them to use a club they can hit accurately to near the driving hazards, there shouldn't be too much stress.

But if the design is such that a good % of golfers have to either get their arse kicked at 7000yds or hit irons all day off the tee, maybe it's not a very good one to start with?

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,

Appropriate tees are when competitors play from the same place. If they are high handicappers playing from the way backs, or low handicappers playing the infamous 5192 tees, it's appropriate as long as they competitors are faced with the same test.

In the competition context, I agree with that, of course, but in real life it's tough to convince all others.

I have a qualification, however, which also brings me back to the "context" point I was trying to make.  I frequently play four-ball weekend matches ($2 Nassau) with a group of friends who are all 15 to 20 years younger than I am, and all with handicaps lower than mine.  We have five sets of tees at our club (approx. 5,400, 5,900, 6,400, 6,700 and 7,000).  I play the second shortest, while the others all, uniformly, play the middle tees or next to back, depending on their mood.  We follow the USGA handicap adjustment rule for competitors playing from different sets of tees, with the result that I take a three or four stroke hit in our matches.  The outcomes seem fair.  Sometimes I'm on the winning team, and sometimes not.  So, in our matches we believe the tees are appropriate for us and our friendly competition, even though we are not teeing off "from the same place."  I wonder how many others play in matches where competitors use different tees, with the appropriate handicap adjustment?  . . . and how many others would find the game more enjoyable if they did so?

[Carl Johnson]

Can I just ask a question; is there a noticeable difference between teeing systems (number of tee’s etc) in the US and the UK.  I have played a couple of courses in the US but a while ago so don’t remember.

Ross,

Based on my limited (25 courses or so) experience in the U.K., I'd say that generally U.S. courses are going to have more tees, particularly at municipal, resort, real estate subdivision and newer or renovated private club courses (leaving older private club courses in the other category).  Moreover, again based on my limited U.K. experience, I'd say that U.S. courses generally have greater distance variation between the tees.  I've played U.K. courses with as little as five or 10 yards difference (per tee) between white (members') and yellow (visitors') tees on almost every hole.

And that's raised a question in my mind.  What's the general purpose of those white/yellow differences?  It seems to me it has more to do with marking a visitor a visitor and a member as a member than with playability.  When we visited Irvine Bogside a couple of years ago the pro shop did not mention any tee restriction, so we teed off on number one from the whites.  Then we noticed members glaring at us.  Immeiately someone from the shop came running out and apologized for not telling us we had to play from the yellow, visitor tees.  Am I reading too much into this?

In 2002 we had another interesting U.K. "tees" experience at Carnoustie.  We were told by the starter that play that day would be from the back tees -- not the Championship tees, but the regular back tees at about 6,900 yards.  Even with only light rain and moderate winds, we did not enjoy the course as much as we would have playing from shorter tees, I'm sure.  To top it off, at one point a course monitor asked us to speed up our play.  All of this seemed a little strange for a public course which we assumed was interested in maximizing revenue from visiting golfers.

[Lou_Duran]

There are certainly some 20s that can hit driver 280, they just can't hit it 280 in play.

Moving up a set of tees doesn't help much if they insist on hitting driver almost every hole. But a good number of HHcappers also derive most of their fun from hitting big drives, not playing smart golf, so it really comes down to what you enjoy. They get more enjoyment out of one pured drive from the blues than a bunch of pars from the whites or further up.

IMO the game would be a lot better if those new to the game were not allowed to carry a driver at all. My uncle who pretty much taught me the game encouraged me to not hit anything longer than a 5 iron for the first couple of years and I am grateful for it.

Reef,

All your points resonate truth.  I have played with HHers who can hit the ball 280 and with LHers who get it out 200-210 yards.  Both are relatively rare, and I would wager that the former plays the "wrong" set of tees much more often than the latter.

I think that all golfers should play whatever tees they want provided they don't slow down play and are mindful of their playing partners.  At my former home course, there are $$$$ 5-some wolf games where the players within a group might play from three different sets of tees and finish well under four hours.

As to how you were taught by your uncle, it is the opposite approach that Jack Grout used to teach Jack Nicklaus.  He had the young boy swing big and hard from the beginning, believing that they could tighten it down later.  For many if not most golfers, hitting the ball a long ways is a thrill and the objective.

George Pazin,

What is it again that you're wailing again?  Did someone suggest you play the front tees and offend you?  There are alot of busy bodies these days telling people how they must think and act.  They deserve only the most brief but poignent acknowledgement.

[Brent Hutto]

As to how you were taught by your uncle, it is the opposite approach that Jack Grout used to teach Jack Nicklaus.  He had the young boy swing big and hard from the beginning, believing that they could tighten it down later.  For many if not most golfers, hitting the ball a long ways is a thrill and the objective.

There is also fairly sound evidence now that developmentally the Grout approach will result in stronger, faster, better swingers of the club than the older-fashioned approach of control first, speed later. There is no substitute for clubhead speed and speed is develops better ab initio than as something added later once "control" (i.e. holding back) is overlearned.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Carl Johnson

The whites tend to be the medal tees and play is not permitted on them outside competition play so as to preserve their playing surface.  That also explains the small yardage differential as they are just there to provide a pristine competition tee not alter the length of the hole.