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Doug Wright

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2009, 04:07:35 PM »
Doug,

I once read that two kinds of people play golf. One kind is doing it for the social aspect. The other kind is doing it for the competitive aspect. I would suggest that your foursome member does it for the social aspect.


Interesting. This fellow seemed plenty competitive to me. In fact, he was more competitive than most of our group.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

George Pazin

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2009, 04:10:47 PM »
I'm not going to take sides, cause I'm not interested in getting into it...but here is my game.

As a high capper myself, topping balls is usually one of the least of my problems on the course.  Its usually cause I hit an iron chunky, or I hit a poor chip, or I hit a big banana ball with the woods, or take two to get out of a bunker.  At most I may have 1-2 worm burners per round, and lately its only been with my short irons (lifting the head up I think.  :-[)  I can put together a nice string of good scores only to fall apart on a couple of holes and get triples or quads.  Its easy to do really...hit a tee ball OB, then make another bad shot and next thing you know your staring at a snowman.

I've got all the shots needed to shoot in the 70s...I just don't have the consistency....

So how much good do really short tees do you? Not much, I'm guessing.

-----

Ken, I hate that formula! :) Seriously, if you saw the example I cited about the 3some I played with, I'd be playing a course just under 7000 yards and my friendly fellow golfer who beat me by almost 20 strokes would be playing one maybe 5800 yards.

-----

Regarding moving up, most feel uncomfortable playing different tees, but I sure don't. I just don't often see the utility, particularly as it might often make a difference on only a few holes. Did Pavin move up a tee when he struggled to reach the 10th fairway at BB in '02?

-----

Peter, I get worried if I agree with Huck too often... :)

-----

Steve, there is no place for common sense in golf or on this site.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ken Moum

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2009, 04:12:06 PM »
My 5192 comment is that architects simply shouldn't be building tees at 5192.

You are probably correct.

Because that's about 300 yards too much for all but the best women I know, and it's not long enough for the best ones.

And it's too damned short for most men.

I play a LOT of golf with my wife, and despite her 13 handicap (which is exceedingly good for a Sr. woman) anything much over 5,000 yards is like me playing from 6,900 yards.  

At our CC, which is 5400 yards and American-style soft and green, about the only time she hits an iron shot is her second on a par four, or her four or fifth on a par five. She can reach one par three with an iron, if it's not into the wind.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Charlie Goerges

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2009, 04:15:23 PM »
I think the question is a legitimate line of inquiry and I’d hope that we could have a fruitful discussion of it without falling back on prior arguments.

It’s difficult to encompass or frame the issue properly as there are many reasons that multiple sets of tees (for purposes of this discussion let’s say that multiple is more than 3) get built and an equally large number of reasons that the “incorrect” tees get played. So I won’t try to frame the problem as a whole, I’ll just try to give one example that I find difficult to deal with, if not to understand.

Some background to my example. The course in my example is 6600 yards from the back tees, I’ve usually played these tees or up one set. I’ve traditionally been able to hit it solid enough on average to drive the ball 240+ yards as a general rule. This season I’ve lost a ton of distance for reasons unknown to me, but my general ability is about the same, this is why I even noticed this problem.

My example then is illustrated in the next two images.

In this one (hole 5) you can see it’s a dogleg to the right. The hole is flat except it’s uphill about 20 feet from the wetland (located under where “176” is typed) to the green.




Now in the previous image I’ve depicted 2 drives from two sets of tees. There is no real way to get closer to the wetland without risking going into it. In a case like this, moving up a set of tees wouldn’t help someone capable of hitting the ball over 260 yards. The image above also highlights another problem, and one that I encountered the last time I played there. There is no way around that hazard. If you can’t carry the ball at least 100 yards in the air, you are screwed.  Scratch that, you can play up to the hazard and then putt the ball to the right, over into the woods and follow the cartpath. I seriously doubt anyone could score less than thirty on the hole in that scenario. For myself with my lost distance I was left with the fun option of “Tee shot, bunt it about 75 yards, then full swing”. This last fact wouldn’t be so bad but for the context of the course where several holes have similar difficulties, Including the next hole.




In this one (hole 6) the large wetland comes into play on the second shot on a par 5.




Again, in a vacuum, it’s not so bad. And in this case moving up a set of tees might help. But now the issue becomes whether the tee spacing makes sense. In my case, if I had moved up a set of tees for this hole (or for the entire day) I would have been fine. But if Garland was playing the white tees and for this hole moved up a set, he would have stood a good chance of driving into the hazard (you can’t see the start of the hazard from the tee btw).

So, is the issue one of choosing the right tees or of deficiencies in the golf course? (Note I didn’t say design deficiencies because in reality the designer may not have had any better alternatives.) The problem is complex because you can’t generalize. On the other hand the greatest of the great courses (from what I’ve read) don’t have nearly the issue with tee choice (Pine Valley excepted). Is it because they were built on land better suited to the purpose, or because they were designed with more thought into how all levels of player would be interacting with the course? Is it some other thing that I’m not comprehending? In a case or question like this thread, I think it would be better to bring up specific examples rather than talk in generalities.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 04:18:41 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Kalen Braley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2009, 04:23:25 PM »
I'm not going to take sides, cause I'm not interested in getting into it...but here is my game.

As a high capper myself, topping balls is usually one of the least of my problems on the course.  Its usually cause I hit an iron chunky, or I hit a poor chip, or I hit a big banana ball with the woods, or take two to get out of a bunker.  At most I may have 1-2 worm burners per round, and lately its only been with my short irons (lifting the head up I think.  :-[)  I can put together a nice string of good scores only to fall apart on a couple of holes and get triples or quads.  Its easy to do really...hit a tee ball OB, then make another bad shot and next thing you know your staring at a snowman.

I've got all the shots needed to shoot in the 70s...I just don't have the consistency....

So how much good do really short tees do you? Not much, I'm guessing.

-----

Ken, I hate that formula! :) Seriously, if you saw the example I cited about the 3some I played with, I'd be playing a course just under 7000 yards and my friendly fellow golfer who beat me by almost 20 strokes would be playing one maybe 5800 yards.

-----

Regarding moving up, most feel uncomfortable playing different tees, but I sure don't. I just don't often see the utility, particularly as it might often make a difference on only a few holes. Did Pavin move up a tee when he struggled to reach the 10th fairway at BB in '02?

-----

Peter, I get worried if I agree with Huck too often... :)

-----

Steve, there is no place for common sense in golf or on this site.

George,

Funny you should ask.  A few weeks ago I played a course with my brother who really is a beginner, so we played from the white tees at 6000 yards, which here in Utah is about like playing at 5700 yards. Needless to say I was nowhere close to breaking 90 despite having 7 pars....it was a very Jekyl and Hyde round indeed.  On a related note, I played a course this past weekend that was 700 yards longer but still shot 9 shots better.


Ken Moum

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2009, 04:34:11 PM »
I think the question is a legitimate line of inquiry and I’d hope that we could have a fruitful discussion of it without falling back on prior arguments.

My example then is illustrated in the next two images.

In this one (hole 5) you can see it’s a dogleg to the right. The hole is flat except it’s uphill about 20 feet from the wetland (located under where “176” is typed) to the green.



Charlie, I like this example because it perfectly illustrates one of the things that a lot of critics forget about the act of moving up a tee. I am a short hitter--averaging under 210 off the tee--and fairly crooked as well. So, for me, moving up to that shorter tee means I can use my most reliable club, a nine wood, for both shots.

Too often, us testosterone-poisoned males think that the tee of a par four calls for a DRIVER, and that the tee of a par three doesn't. We are wrong on both counts.



In this one (hole 6) the large wetland comes into play on the second shot on a par 5.




Again, in a vacuum, it’s not so bad. And in this case moving up a set of tees might help. But now the issue becomes whether the tee spacing makes sense. In my case, if I had moved up a set of tees for this hole (or for the entire day) I would have been fine. But if Garland was playing the white tees and for this hole moved up a set, he would have stood a good chance of driving into the hazard (you can’t see the start of the hazard from the tee btw).

To be honest, I like the idea that a long hitter might have to think hard about what club to use off this tee. After all, I face that decision a lot. My home course has three dogleg holes of 432, 446 and 464 (two fours and a five par).

On each of them, if you can hit it 240 in the air on high trajectory, there’s nothing to make you even think hard about cutting the dogleg. Struck well, you will have a second shot of 140-160. On all three, I have to play around the corner, and rarely have a shot of less than 220. In this case, being 40 yards longer gains them as much as 80 yards on their next shot.

Forgive me if I don’t mind them having to lay up now and then.


Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2009, 04:54:10 PM »


 Garland,

  Why are you purposely confusing?

  Anthony


                                                               



I ___ out ___ because ___ find ___ unnecessary.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jed Peters

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2009, 05:03:40 PM »
I am afraid I must disagree.

Due to a rich history of orthopaedic injuries and creaky joints I had, for some months, a hard time breaking 90. I was 79 on January 8, 2009. On January 9th, I hosted a lady guest on the Shore Course. To be companionable, I suggested that I join her on the forward tees. Being able to reach par fours with a medium or short iron did wonders for my game, I shot 78, beating my age by a shot. 

In my next outing from 6500 yards I shot 91.

The most unfortunate thing is that when playing with 'the boys,' our inflated egos prevent us from using the appropriate tees.


Bob



Wow, you must be hitting it well lately, Robert! HA!

Anyhow, I think it's just a case of you needing joint juice.

I've seen practice swings that would make A. Knottenkamper Jr. jealous.

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2009, 05:07:51 PM »
My 5192 comment is that architects simply shouldn't be building tees at 5192.

You are probably correct.

Because that's about 300 yards too much for all but the best women I know, and it's not long enough for the best ones.

And it's too damned short for most men.

I play a LOT of golf with my wife, and despite her 13 handicap (which is exceedingly good for a Sr. woman) anything much over 5,000 yards is like me playing from 6,900 yards.  

At our CC, which is 5400 yards and American-style soft and green, about the only time she hits an iron shot is her second on a par four, or her four or fifth on a par five. She can reach one par three with an iron, if it's not into the wind.

Ken,

Are you sure you haven't been brain washed by the GCAofA into thinking that the only way to enjoy golf is to reach greens in regulation? ;) Make up your own par and shoot for it. Think of a 320 yard hole as a reachable par 5. Think of a 400 yard hole as an easy birdie 4. Think of a 500 yard hole as a par 6 reachable in 3, etc. The numbers are just guesses. Only you can pick the numbers that make sense for you. What's wrong with America? Where has our creativity gone? Where has our freedom gone? Why do we knuckle under to the dictatorship of the GCAofA?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

C. Squier

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2009, 05:11:09 PM »

If those 20+ markers who claim they can hit it 280 play from tees where they can drive it to the length of the driving hazards with a club they can hit somewhat straight, they will play the course more from the areas the architect designed it to be played from.


Scott, I too would like to meet a 20 handicapper who can hit it 280 yards.  Methinks I'll be paired up w/ a Centaur before a 20 hitting it 280 all day.

If we're going to cite 7000 yard tees as a reason for HH'er misery on the golf course, we must also cite greens that stimp at 9+.  I play a fair amount of golf w/ those who only tee it up once or twice a year and a majority of their problems come on greens that run way too fast for them.  

It is a shame when the #1 criteria for most people in describing a good course is that "it's over 7000 yds".  I cringe every time I hear that.

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2009, 05:12:10 PM »
Charlie,

You're not going to pollute this thread with those stinkng swamps are you?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2009, 05:33:44 PM »
I am not sure if this is within the bounds of the topic but I am going to post anyway. 5192 is too short, bottom line; same as 7192 is too long. Only a select number can really enjoy the game from either of those distances. However, do we sit down to consider why courses are so 'long,' meaning long walks between holes, etc.? It is because most of them are designed through housing developments. How many stand-alone courses can any of you think of that have a great number of long walks between greens and tees? The course I have in mind at the moment has 4 walks that are more than 15 yards and only then because the property angles in some very odd ways in those areas. But just about every other stand-alone course I have played has very short, manageable walks on all the holes. Long walks happen because we try to route holes through housing corridors and around roads. Do away with that (whihc will never happen of course) and you do away with long walks.

I played a course near Raleigh the other day that is 7200 yards from the back tees but in every case the back tees are the first ones you come to, either walking or riding the course. So, a lady walking would have 50-200 yards additional walking to get to the forward tees. Couple this with the fact that every hole has at least a 50 yard distance between green and tee, many with 300+ yard distances, and the course is basically not walkable. Every hole with the huge distances crosses a present neighborhood street or a corridor where one is planned. That is what causes long walks.

And I have nothing against designing more teeing areas, thats fine.

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2009, 05:37:57 PM »
...
I played a course near Raleigh the other day that is 7200 yards from the back tees but in every case the back tees are the first ones you come to, either walking or riding the course. So, a lady walking would have 50-200 yards additional walking to get to the forward tees. Couple this with the fact that every hole has at least a 50 yard distance between green and tee, many with 300+ yard distances, and the course is basically not walkable. Every hole with the huge distances crosses a present neighborhood street or a corridor where one is planned. That is what causes long walks.

And I have nothing against designing more teeing areas, thats fine.

Was this course through a housing area?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2009, 05:39:24 PM »
I trust those that can't enjoy a course much longer than 5192 have no intention of playing TOC.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2009, 05:40:59 PM »
...
I played a course near Raleigh the other day that is 7200 yards from the back tees but in every case the back tees are the first ones you come to, either walking or riding the course. So, a lady walking would have 50-200 yards additional walking to get to the forward tees. Couple this with the fact that every hole has at least a 50 yard distance between green and tee, many with 300+ yard distances, and the course is basically not walkable. Every hole with the huge distances crosses a present neighborhood street or a corridor where one is planned. That is what causes long walks.

And I have nothing against designing more teeing areas, thats fine.

Was this course through a housing area?


Garland, I am questioning your ability to read. Yes, its through a housing area, I said that much, nearly specifically in the last sentence.

Bill_McBride

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2009, 05:43:59 PM »
I trust those that can't enjoy a course much longer than 5192 have no intention of playing TOC.


Shirley you jest.   ;D

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2009, 05:52:36 PM »
I trust those that can't enjoy a course much longer than 5192 have no intention of playing TOC.


Shirley you jest.   ;D

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to be forced to play longer tees at TOC and give up golf out of frustration. I could only find the medal tees distance there at around 6700. I suspect the shortest tees might be around 6300, which would be undue burden on someone, especially after having been decarted.
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Dugger

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2009, 05:56:55 PM »
Did someone really cite Pine Valley......perhaps the course with the most difficult long carries in gawf?

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2009, 05:57:32 PM »
...
I played a course near Raleigh the other day that is 7200 yards from the back tees but in every case the back tees are the first ones you come to, either walking or riding the course. So, a lady walking would have 50-200 yards additional walking to get to the forward tees. Couple this with the fact that every hole has at least a 50 yard distance between green and tee, many with 300+ yard distances, and the course is basically not walkable. Every hole with the huge distances crosses a present neighborhood street or a corridor where one is planned. That is what causes long walks.

And I have nothing against designing more teeing areas, thats fine.


Sorry JKM! Just didn't have patience to slog all the way through to the end of your post. I was put off by your seeming claim that only courses routed through housing have the problem I have been addressing. Many modern courses have the longest tees nearby the green, but still require over a 100 yard walk to the forward tees, which lead to my statement that more than 1/4 of the round is just hiking green to tee.

Was this course through a housing area?


Garland, I am questioning your ability to read. Yes, its through a housing area, I said that much, nearly specifically in the last sentence.

Looks like the latest database hiccup lost my response.

Sorry JKM! I didn't get all the way to the end before responding. The second paragraph seemed to be discussing a course separate from the first and I didn't finish reading it. My apologies.

I would point out that there are lots of non-housing development courses with this problem. Since there is around 2000 yards between long and short tees, it is often possible to walk >100 yards between each green and the next tee, which can be over 1/4 the length of the walk.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 06:42:50 PM by Bayley R. Garland »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2009, 05:58:46 PM »
Did someone really cite Pine Valley......perhaps the course with the most difficult long carries in gawf?



I think it must have been Matt Ward posing as someone else.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2009, 06:31:57 PM »
Scott, I too would like to meet a 20 handicapper who can hit it 280 yards.  Methinks I'll be paired up w/ a Centaur before a 20 hitting it 280 all day.

If we're going to cite 7000 yard tees as a reason for HH'er misery on the golf course, we must also cite greens that stimp at 9+.  I play a fair amount of golf w/ those who only tee it up once or twice a year and a majority of their problems come on greens that run way too fast for them.  

In your rush to belittle lesser golfers than you, you overlooked the main point of this thread: there is NOTHING that HHers do all day long. Think about the implications of this relative to the multiple tee theory if you feel so inclined.

Should you find yourself in Pittsburgh, I will bet you any sum of money you choose you will see a HHer drive a ball 280+ before you see a centaur.

Your point about greens is accurate, but unlike many low handicappers who complain about fairness, most HHers tend to realize it's the indian, not the arrow.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Reef Wilson

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2009, 07:00:07 PM »
There are certainly some 20s that can hit driver 280, they just can't hit it 280 in play.

Moving up a set of tees doesn't help much if they insist on hitting driver almost every hole. But a good number of HHcappers also derive most of their fun from hitting big drives, not playing smart golf, so it really comes down to what you enjoy. They get more enjoyment out of one pured drive from the blues than a bunch of pars from the whites or further up.

IMO the game would be a lot better if those new to the game were not allowed to carry a driver at all. My uncle who pretty much taught me the game encouraged me to not hit anything longer than a 5 iron for the first couple of years and I am grateful for it.

Richard Choi

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2009, 07:05:39 PM »
When I was in early 20's still learning how to play, I could drive 280 easy, but I was still a 20+ handicapper because I never knew where the drive was going and my short game was atrocious.

It really is not that rare, especially today with 460cc drivers. A lot of strong young (late teens) kids just learning how to play can hit very long ways, but still play to a high handicap.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2009, 07:12:16 PM »
Ken,

In my first example my main point wasn't that the long hitters couldn't hit driver, but that no matter how long you are and no matter which tee you play from, you're going to have the same length shot for your second. And you're looking at a very long forced carry on that shot no matter what.

So this is a prime case of "just move up a set of tees" doesn't hold water.

My overall point was that having many sets of tees and trying to sort players by that can be problematic at best and moving up or moving back isn't necessarily the best solution. In fact there (sometimes) might not even be a solution.

Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Doug Wright

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Re: "Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2009, 07:29:33 PM »
Did someone really cite Pine Valley......perhaps the course with the most difficult long carries in gawf?



I think it must have been Matt Ward posing as someone else.


Yes I did gentlemen (Matt Ward would have told the guy "Stay away from PV pardner"  ;)). I postulated that the fellow I played with would have found Pine Valley still challenging but much more playable had he moved up one tee. Yes there are long carries, but this short-hitting but otherwise solid 13 handicapper could have experienced the following for example had he moved up one tee:

2.  Green reachable in two (vs. a 100 yard layup/3rd shot).
4. Fairway more reachable and possible benefit from turboboost; possibly a 2 shot hole (vs. fairway sometimes reachable; a sure 3 shot hole).
5. Ability to get to green or fairway area in front of green (vs. no real alternative other than hitting into bad stuff).
7. Maybe a chance with a really good drive to get over HHA (vs. absolutely no chance).
9. Possibly a 2 shot hole (vs. a sure 3 shot hole).
11. Fairway reachable at better angle to make green possibly reachable (vs. hitting into sandy native area or far left; a sure 3 shot hole).
16. Fairway reachable (vs. not reachable, ball in sandy native area). 
 
This situation is very different from the "long enough but wild" MH/HH. PV punishes all those players with impunity. For the very short but straight hitter, playing the proper tees at PV matters. This fellow made his choice. So be it.

PS Have either of you played Pine Valley? 
Twitter: @Deneuchre

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