"Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"

[Tim Pitner]

My view on this is that far too many people play inappropriate tees (i.e., too far back) for their games, but there is a point of diminishing returns.  Because I (a shaky 9 handicap) shot an 83 from 6500 yards does not mean that I would shoot a 73 from 5500 yards.  In fact, because of how relatively easy drivers are to hit these days, I'm not convinced that the average player would necessarily improve his score if forced to hit 3 woods or long irons instead of drivers off the tee.  Obviously, the short game plays a big role too--if your short game is weak, you can't score, even from 5192. 

So, I basically agree with George's point, with the proviso that, unless you're playing at altitude, very few players need to play from much beyond 6500-6700 yards. 

[JC Jones]

As evidenced with my first post in this thread, I tend to agree with George.  I would, however, like to agree with Tom's proviso.  I would say that as long as you are in the 6500-6900 range, your handicap is irrelevant to your ability to handle the distance.  The problem with 7000+ is that it generally includes all 4 par 3's at 200 or more, which can be much even for the wayward long hitter.

[Charlie Goerges]

Guys, let's slow down here for a moment and examine some of the "whys" and use some concrete examples. I have a few more thoughts and examples, but I need to get them organized. Nevertheless, let's look at some of the issues and see if we can't resolve them.

[Michael Dugger]

The impetus for this thread is Matt Ward's big mouth.  He argued with George that Black Mesa is indeed very playable for the mid to high handicapper.

George disagreed, and while I cannot comment on Black Mesa because I haven't been there, I see his point.

Playing different tees is not always the solution.

A very narrow course, playing fast and firm with crowned fairways and horrific gunk to the sides is going to be hard on the wayward hitter, regardless of what tees they play from.   

[Scott Warren]

5192 is ludicrous?

Someone forgot to send the memo to the group of us who played Painswick at 4800yds on Saturday and had one of the most enjoyable days on a golf course I can remember.

[George Pazin]

5192 is ludicrous?

Someone forgot to send the memo to the group of us who played Painswick at 4800yds on Saturday and had one of the most enjoyable days on a golf course I can remember.

Obviously, there are no black and whites, and as Garland himself indicated, I misunderstood his 5192 comment, as it was related more toward walking versus riding. There will always be exceptions that prove the rule in golf, but the fact that there are highly entertaining short courses does not mitigate my point about the shortcomings of the multiple tee theory.

-----

Other posters are also correct, just because you can hit a tee shot 250+ does not mean you should be playing 7K tees. I actually had some other observations about length after watching the women play this past weekend, but that will be another thread on another day.

[Richard Choi]

This thread is why having no tees at all at Ballyneal is so great.

During the 3 days we played there, we played from practically every tee on every hole. It was really interesting to see how much the hole changes from different angles and different distances. In fact, on 11th hole (par 3), the most interesting tee shot was the most forward tee which was only about 110 yards, but devilish difficult with the front pin as anything not struck well rolls straight in to the bunker or the collection area.

Perhaps we are just too married to the tee markers...

[Garland Bayley]

5192 is ludicrous?

Someone forgot to send the memo to the group of us who played Painswick at 4800yds on Saturday and had one of the most enjoyable days on a golf course I can remember.

Painswick, Swainswick. This thread is about the courses with tees from 7192 down to 5192.
Now do you and Bill have anything to contribute?

[Scott Warren]

Fair enough Garland.

If those 20+ markers who claim they can hit it 280 play from tees where they can drive it to the length of the driving hazards with a club they can hit somewhat straight, they will play the course more from the areas the architect designed it to be played from.

And if they are these mythological 20+ markers who bomb it 280 in the fairway but just can't hit irons or chip for peanuts, they will be hitting shorter irons into the greens, which should make it easier for them to hit more greens/miss them by less.

There are a small number of courses where hazard location is going to force them to play 8i off the tee on par fours, but I think they are few and far between, and by and large, what is forcing them to play 6500yd+ tees is their ego and peer pressure.

[Bill_McBride]

5192 is ludicrous?

Someone forgot to send the memo to the group of us who played Painswick at 4800yds on Saturday and had one of the most enjoyable days on a golf course I can remember.

Painswick, Swainswick. This thread is about the courses with tees from 7192 down to 5192.
Now do you and Bill have anything to contribute?

You owe us 392 yards.

[Garland Bayley]

Obviously, there are no black and whites, and as Garland himself indicated, I misunderstood his 5192 comment, as it was related more toward walking versus riding. ...

George, pardon me, but I think you still misunderstand (and of course Tom has no clue! ). My 5192 comment is that architects simply shouldn't be building tees at 5192. I at no point wrote that golfers should necessarily get out of their carts. My point was that architects should not be using them as an excuse for their transgressions in giving us excessive hiking. Remember, golf rules originally said you must tee off as near the hole just finished as possible! The rules did not say get in a cart and drive over 100 yards away. My 5192 comment is actually more about Painswick than I originally indicated above. Would those of you who brought up the length of Painswick support the adding of 6500 yard tees to bring the course on par with those having tees ranging from 7192 to 5192? Strategically it works out quite differently that way doesn't it?

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland:

Some free advice:  if you wish to make a point, make it.  Speaking in riddles helps no one.

 

So yes, good point you just made there... not one that hasn't been made at least 100 times before on here, but a good one nevertheless.  Architects should not use multiple tees as a crutch, nor add them when they can just figuring people can cart to wherever they need to go. Yawn.. that makes 101 recitals of this.... yeah, I was clueless as to this being your point because I firmly believed you had more to offer.  This is pretty disappointing.. all the riddles and nonsense-speak for THIS?

TH

[Doug Wright]

Guys, let's slow down here for a moment and examine some of the "whys" and use some concrete examples. I have a few more thoughts and examples, but I need to get them organized. Nevertheless, let's look at some of the issues and see if we can't resolve them.

I recently played at Pine Valley with another member of my club here in Denver whom I hadn't met or played with before the trip. He is a very short hitting but consistent 13 handicapper.  Playing from the next to back ("regular") tees as we all did, he struggled mightily on several holes at Pine Valley. For example, he couldn't hit driver far enough to be able to reach #2 in two or the fairway area of the par three fifth, and he couldn't carry the waste area on #16. Carrying Hell's Half Acre was a challenge unless he was up very close. During the first round, his caddy suggested that he consider moving up. After the round I suggested the same thing. I suggested it again after lunch as we headed to the tee for the second afternoon round. He didn't say anything and never moved up. I didn't know the guy well enough to get into his grill about it; I mentioned it to a couple others in our group who just shrugged. I'm not saying that this guy didn't enjoy himself at Pine Valley--I think he did. However, I think he would have enjoyed his experience there even more and still had all the challenges he needed if he had moved up one set of tees. Pine Valley is a surprisingly playable course off the tee if you can carry the ball far enough (and in most instances it's not that far).    None of the rest of us would have given a damn. I learned afterward that he never plays from the back tees at our club, which aren't Pine Valley difficult by any stretch but also present some similar forced carries.  

Why? As others have mentioned, ego, peer pressure (real or perceived, doesn't matter), machismo, maybe because one enjoys the nearly impossible challenge?

In the words of Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations."
 
Harry Callahan: Well, I just work for the city, Briggs!
Lieutenant Briggs: So do I, longer than you, and I never had to take my gun out of its holster once. I'm proud of that.
Harry Callahan: Well, you're a good man, lieutenant. A good man always knows his limitations...

Ah the challenges and temptations of golf. Maybe it's why each of us is enjoys going "Tin Cup" from time to time (or all the time...).    

[Garland Bayley]

...Architects should not use multiple tees as a crutch...

Sorry I missed these threads Tom. Would you be so kind as to point them out to me?

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland - sorry man, I'm not gonna do your dirty work.  Search and ye shall find if ye are indeed interested.

It is a pretty tired point.  Oh, not as beaten to a death not deserved by the most evil of criminals death like the general topic "carts v. walking"...or "who designed Merion"... just call it a little fatigued.

I'll give you this, though:  you are the first to use the magic "5192" figure.

 

[Peter Pallotta]

You know, just to say -- I'm finding that the more I agree with Tom Huckaby, the happier I am.  I'm through with my feeble attempts at independent thought or (worse) interesting analogies.  The posts of the Most Reasonable Man on the Board are good enough for me...

Peter

[Garland Bayley]

Garland - sorry man, I'm not gonna do your dirty work.  Search and ye shall find if ye are indeed interested.

It is a pretty tired point.  Oh, not as beaten to a death not deserved by the most evil of criminals death like the general topic "carts v. walking"...or "who designed Merion"... just call it a little fatigued.

I'll give you this, though:  you are the first to use the magic "5192" figure.

 

I have been on this board for a while now and I have not seen such a thread. It is not the type of thread that would be amenable to the search function of this board. Therefore, if you know of such threads, I would appreciate you pointing them out so that I can wade through them.

[Mike McGuire]

 Play the regular tees if you can reach the greens in regulation downwind on your best shot. If you cant reach the greens, and it bugs you, move up.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not going to take sides, cause I'm not interested in getting into it...but here is my game.

As a high capper myself, topping balls is usually one of the least of my problems on the course.  Its usually cause I hit an iron chunky, or I hit a poor chip, or I hit a big banana ball with the woods, or take two to get out of a bunker.  At most I may have 1-2 worm burners per round, and lately its only been with my short irons (lifting the head up I think.  )  I can put together a nice string of good scores only to fall apart on a couple of holes and get triples or quads.  Its easy to do really...hit a tee ball OB, then make another bad shot and next thing you know your staring at a snowman.

I've got all the shots needed to shoot in the 70s...I just don't have the consistency....

[Garland Bayley]

Play the regular tees if you can reach the greens in regulation downwind on your best shot. If you cant reach the greens, and it bugs you, move up.

Why should it bug anyone that they can't reach the greens? Isn't that an ego function? Why don't you ask the people moving up why they have such an ego problem with not being able to reach the greens?

[Garland Bayley]

Doug,

I once read that two kinds of people play golf. One kind is doing it for the social aspect. The other kind is doing it for the competitive aspect. I would suggest that your foursome member does it for the social aspect.

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland - sorry man, I'm not gonna do your dirty work.  Search and ye shall find if ye are indeed interested.

It is a pretty tired point.  Oh, not as beaten to a death not deserved by the most evil of criminals death like the general topic "carts v. walking"...or "who designed Merion"... just call it a little fatigued.

I'll give you this, though:  you are the first to use the magic "5192" figure.

 

I have been on this board for a while now and I have not seen such a thread. It is not the type of thread that would be amenable to the search function of this board. Therefore, if you know of such threads, I would appreciate you pointing them out so that I can wade through them.

You remain a piece of work, my friend.  

Heck I doubt any THREAD was created devoted solely to this point; however, I never said such were.  I said your point was made 100 times before.  And while that is likely an exaggeration, it's not by much.  In any case, obviously what I meant was said point was made in individual posts.  And if you expect me to hunt those down to prove that to you, well.. don't.  

[Anthony Gray]

 Garland,

  Why are you purposely confusing?

  Anthony


                                                               

[Ken Moum]

I, at age 61, don't get all that much pleasure out of courses longer than about 6100 yards. And find that just under 6,000 is a lot more fun. Beyond that, I end up seeing WAY too many par fours that I simply can't reach in two.

Recently someone on another forum posted a suggestion that 36 X your 5-iron distance is the ideal length of course.

So... the Pros hit it 200-215, which works out to 7200-7800 yards.

I don't carry  five iron, but can squeeze 160-165 out of the eleven wood I carry there, so I should be playing from ~5900. (It's really an amazing formula.)

My 13-handicap wife doesn't like courses over 5,000 yards, and her five-iron equivalent is maybe 130--which adds up to ~4700 yards, a length she finds interesting and enjoyable.

[Steve Lang]

  One can always play the back tees or further back ones than usual and move forward when they aren't appropriate..

Ms Sheila and I regularly play together from our White Tees (2nd from front.. at WCC order is front Green, White, Blue and Black are tips) and she has calculated adjustment by USGA rules for handicap posting for women..  On some holes she'll move up to the real white tee when they have them pushed back on alternate tee boxes or when it just doesn't make sense..  no reason why men can't do the same when "distance or skill" challenged..