[Thomas Patterson]

I had the opportunity to play Black Mesa last Saturday morning.  We were the first group out at around 7:20 AM.  I enjoyed this round immensely.  I particularly liked the bunkering and "natural" feel to the course.  The landscape itself was very unique and I enjoyed the routing....it made you feel as if you were in the middle of nowhere.  The contours on the greens were like none i have experienced (granted my experience is not great) and I really thought they fit well.  The condition of the course was immaculate.  Cheers to everyone involved and I hope to make it back there sometime in the very near future.  I hope you all enjoy some of my pictures from the day.

Tee shot #1


Approach #1


Tee shot #2


Green #2 (Matt is right...very tough pin position..anything remotely long will run off into a collection area behind the green leaving a tough up and down)


Green on Par 5 3rd


Tee shot #4


#4


#5 from the right side of the fairway, almost behind the big mound in the right rough


#7 Green


#8 I think?


#8 green from below, right


#11


#11


#14 Tee Shot


#14 from right side of fairway


#14 just below the green for my approach


#15


#16 Tee Shot


#16 Tee Shot zoomed in


#16 approach


#16 Third Shot


Looking back down #16


Looking back down #16 a little farther back on the green


#17 approach and bunker complex


#18 Tee Shot


#18 Bunkers


Windmill!

[Jim Tang]

Thomas -

Thanks for posting these pictures.  Solid.  I was at Black Mesa in 2007 and it was a blast!  What a fun golf course; great movement in the land, lots of risk/reward type holes, excellent design.  I know Black Mesa is very popular on this board.

[Garland Bayley]

Ride or walk?

[Jason Topp]

Thanks for the pictures.  It looks like I might get the chance to play there this fall.  Any chance you could put short descriptions on the pictures so I can understand what I am seeing?

[Matt_Ward]

Thomas:

Be curious to know prior to your playing there what were your expectations and if they were met ?

Was there any hole(s) that you believe is vastly underrated / overrated ?

How does Black Mesa standup to all of the courses you have ever played ?

Jason:

The first two pics are of the starting hole. You hit over the mound on the right on the 1st pic.

The next two feature the underrated 2nd hole -- the pin, in the 4th pic, is places at the far rear and calls upon a supreme approach shot to get close.

The 5th pic is the green at the par-5 3rd -- the two that follow that are the par-3 5th which plays to a natural bowl-like area.

I can update the rest shortly ... got to go for now ...

[Thomas Patterson]

Jim - Thanks for the comments...I agree!

Bayley - we road.  My playing partner isn't the walking type, nor the early morning person either.  I knew I was pushing my luck with one out of 2 requests!  I would very much like to go back and walk it, once in the early morning and once late in the day.

Jason - Descriptions have been updated.  I have only played here once though, so anyone please correct me if I have any pictures labeled improperly.

Matt - My expectations were pretty high, from reading comments here and in other blogs, seeing pictures, etc.  I must say that even with the the high bar I set before I even stepped onto the property, BM delivered in every way.  The staff were very inviting and created a "relaxed" atmosphere.  The driving range/chipping area/putting greens were great.  From the first tee to the final putt on 18, BM kept me guessing and kept me interested.  I think I could play this course 100 times over and not get tired of it. 

I really enjoyed the 2nd, as you stated below.  I pulled my drive left and ended up on a hill, just off the fairway.  I put a 7 iron into the green and got it close (as you can see in the 4th pic).  I was rewarded by hitting a nice approach shot even though I put my drive a little offline.  The approach is very intimidating though, as it was completely blind for me.  I really enjoyed # 14.  If you could pull off a nice drive, it rewards you with an uphill chip into a green sloping from back to front, so a chance to put it close.  However, if your drive is offline, you could be stuck in the mound in the fairway, off the cart path on the right, or down in the huge complex of bunkers on the left.  I'm not really sure if any hole was overrated, but I think I will wait until I have played it a few times before making that judgment.  As far as standing up to courses I have played...it is up at the top.  However, I have not played a lot of "top" courses.  I played Paa-Ko Ridge on Sunday and I much preferred BM to Paa-ko.

[Patrick Kiser]

I was there around April 1st when the cold and wind made the round next to impossible.  Still enjoyed myself, but it was ridiculous.

One thing I will say that I found to be a problem...

For the high to even mid handicaper, there are too many forced carries to the fairway.  I played with two 20 or so handicappers ... and it made for a very long round.

I had no such issues, but I do think the course is too difficult for the high handicapper.

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick:

Time of year does matter -- I have played across the pond on shoulder season time frame and had to endure high winds and rain. I didn't allow freakish conditions from that one time visit to make me believe that such a course was "ridiculous."

Santa Fe can have some tough early season weather -- at roughly almost a mile in elevation -- BM isn't going to be warm and fuzzy at that time of year. One other thing -- the wind velocity can also be quite daunting even in the prime playing months. I played there this past May in a heavy crosswind that averaged 25 mph and gusted to 40 mph.

Last item -- you mentioned about the forced carries to the fairway ... which holes are you speaking about ?

The only ones I can think that would apply are:

1st, possibly the 16th and 18th holes.

Maybe you can elaborate on the holes where such "forced carries" happened.

Thanks ...

[Garland Bayley]

...
Maybe you can elaborate on the holes where such "forced carries" happened.
...

That's easy! Everywhere! If you read his post with comprehension, you would understand the comment about forced carries was for high handicappers. If you have trouble making a swing that will consistently get the ball off the ground, Black Mesa will extract a toll for every failure to do so. And, then there will be a sign informing you that you are entering rattlesnake country when you go to find your ball.

[Matt_Ward]

Glad to see the ill-informed have time to chirp in with their comments.

I'd like to know from the person who made the claim about "forced carries" to spell out where they might be. I am thoroughly familiar with BM and if people play the appropriate tees the issue is not present -- save for the holes I provided. If people have that much trouble with "get(ting) the ball off the ground" then frankly the issue is more about getting lessons than any supposed deficiency with the course.

[Garland Bayley]

... If people have that much trouble with "get(ting) the ball off the ground" then frankly the issue is more about getting lessons than any supposed deficiency with the course.

There he goes again. Golf great ambassador! He likes to let all beginners know they are not welcome. He likes to do it on a public forum so as many people as possible can see it.

What Dugger said!

[Matt_Ward]

A predictable response.

BM provides tremendous elasticity for all types of players -- if someone is truly a beginner then BM is not for them until they have a certain amount of skill level -- the forward tee boxes can accomodate a broad range of players -- however -- if you have someone who can't hit Kansas from the Oklahoma line then start with lessons first.

Let me point out that using your statement that such courses as Pine Valley would not be deemed worthy of your time and attention.

In fact, BM provides more playable area than the Jersey gem which is rated among the best in the world.

[Andy Troeger]

...
Maybe you can elaborate on the holes where such "forced carries" happened.
...

That's easy! Everywhere! If you read his post with comprehension, you would understand the comment about forced carries was for high handicappers. If you have trouble making a swing that will consistently get the ball off the ground, Black Mesa will extract a toll for every failure to do so. And, then there will be a sign informing you that you are entering rattlesnake country when you go to find your ball.

Garland,
Quite frankly I'm with Matt here--if you're not any good you should be playing the most forward set of tees which measure 5,162 yards with minimal forced carries. The failure of people to not make the forced carries at Black Mesa is likely tee choice as much as anything. I love for people to learn the game, but there are only a handful of top courses that I'd recommend to someone that can't hit the ball 30 yards in the air with some consistency.

[Garland Bayley]

Andy, so you would move those humiliated by Matt's comments to the humiliation of 5192?
Even when I was a 10 as a youth, I often hit worm burners. At the course I played they didn't hurt me. At Black Mesa they would. That is what this discussion is about. Every hole at Black Mesa has something significant to carry off the tee (except perhaps from the 5192 tees). And being able to hit them 300 yards when I caught them on the screws back then would suggest that 5192 wasn't appropriate. The original post was about the course not necessarily being fun for high handicappers, which Matt ignorantly disputes with there are no forced carries to speak of.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
I'm afraid Black Mesa (and about half the top 100) doesn't do a good job of permitting worm-burners. I have to admit that really doesn't bother me, even though I hit one occasionally.

Golfers that can't get the ball airborne regularly should probably avoid Black Mesa, along with a number of other places. I can recommend a few courses in Santa Fe/Albuquerque that they would enjoy.

[Matt_Ward]

Do me a huge favor amigo -- please don't substitute YOUR words for mine.

I did admit there are "forced" carries at Black Mesa -- but we are talking about minimal such carries on only a few holes of note ... for example, the 1st is one of them -- ditto the 16th and even the 18th. However, as Andy correctly noted -- you can opt to play a combination of forward tees -- I never said you need to play the entire course at 5,192 yards.

But get this through your head if you can -- if I brought the type of "worm burner" golfer to Pine Valley the net reaction would be far greater about the issue oif playability with that Jersey gem than with the New Mexico layout. I don't see people throwing Pine Valley under the bus in regards to forced carries / overall demands, etc, etc, etc.

Try to keep this in mind if you can -- my question on forced carries was specifically to Patrick since he raised the issue. Last I checked your first name isn't Patrick.

One other thing to straighten out another flippant comment you've made -- you say EVERY hole has "something significant to carry off the tee" -- that is wrong big time. Happy to discuss the ENTIRE course with you or anyone else for that matter - because so much of what makes Black Mesa so unique and compelling is the psychological elements the course plays upon the golfer. To architect Baxter Spann's considerable credit the visual elements of "forcd carries" are meant to mentally throw off the player and are far from a physical element of reality -- like I said if you bag Black Mesa for forced carries -- then Pine Valley and Bethpage Black, would be also thrown under the bus using your thinking. I can name additional such courses where such a situation is far more onerous than what Black Mesa does.

[Jason McNamara]

Try to keep this in mind if you can -- my question on forced carries was specifically to Patrick since he raised the issue. Last I checked your first name isn't Patrick.

You see, sometimes when Matt uses a poster's name, he is specifically talking to that poster. 

Except when he addressed me by name on the Long Island thread - on that thread he was talking "to the broader group."
    (http://tinyurl.com/mtrge6)

Tough to keep track sometimes.

[Patrick Kiser]

Matt,

I actually posted yesterday in response and my post ... vanished.  Victim of the aliens that Philip mentions...

Anyway, to roughly restate things...

I would add the 2nd from Thomas's pics.  Then I seem to recall the 5th, 9th, to an extent the 10th, and clearly the 14th.  I'd add those as making it tougher for the higher handicap.

But as I even stated yesterday in my ghost post ... our clear problem that day was picking the blue tees.  Wrong, wrong, wrong...  Ladies tees that day is what we should have gone off from.  Call it the macho thing or whatever, but it made for a very long day for my two high handicap playing partners to be dragged down into the arroyos and washes time and time again to find their ball.

And it made for an even longer day for me to wait and wait and wait ... before I could take my second shot.

So given this, I think the course is much better suited to the better player or to a player that can get the tee ball out to the fairway pretty consistently.

My two cents.


 

[Patrick Kiser]

About my high handicap buds...

They're not worm burners.  But they're not regular players.  They get out once every couple of weeks, if that.

They were making good contact actually, but ... with some slice here and some hooking there.  And with the wind, that's just guaranteed death from the accentuation.  Plus I'm pretty sure the choice of line was not the conservative kind.

I think I stand by my post though.  BM calls for a mid handicapper or better to really enjoy it and have enough fun.  Otherwise, it could be a real slog.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
I will agree with your premise overall that Black Mesa under any conditions is going to beat up weak golfers--its a tough course.

I do think Black Mesa is better than 90% of the other desert courses in New Mexico and Arizona at allowing the golfer a chance to find their ball and often to get it back in play. At most of the other courses its pretty much gone, whereas I've found at least 75% of my errant shots at BM over the years.

That said, making judgments on a terrible weather day when playing from the wrong tees doesn't mean much. That's like me as a 7-8 handicap going to the tips on some 7400 yard 147 slope course in high winds and wondering why I shot 100 when I could move up to realistic tees and play on a nicer day and shoot 80.

[Patrick Kiser]

At most of the other courses its pretty much gone, whereas I've found at least 75% of my errant shots at BM over the years.

Andy,

I totally agree with you on that one.  That is most definitely one of the better aspects of BM (e.g. recovery).

I'm not sure they'd shoot an 80 from the ladies on any day ... but I think your point is well taken  .


   

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick:

Thanks ... as I said previously ... if you had the same conditions and the same people playing ... if I whisked all of you from BM and brought you to Pine Valley it's likely your same comments would be aired. The point?

It shows that those who are worm burners would find no reprieve if they had to substitute Pine Valley or Bethpage Black or countless other similar type courses.

In regards to the holes you mentioned for carries -- the 2nd tee box (especially the front ones) is right next to where the fairway begins. The 5th and 9th don't have any real forced carry -- my God, if 100 yards is difficult for anyone to handle then it's time to recess from the course and head to Black Mesa's superb practice area.

Agree with you on the 10th being somewhat of a carry though but again it's quite manageable -- unless you are playing into the teeth of a cyclone.

[George Pazin]

About my high handicap buds...

They're not worm burners.  But they're not regular players.  They get out once every couple of weeks, if that.

They were making good contact actually, but ... with some slice here and some hooking there.  And with the wind, that's just guaranteed death from the accentuation.  Plus I'm pretty sure the choice of line was not the conservative kind.

I think I stand by my post though.  BM calls for a mid handicapper or better to really enjoy it and have enough fun.  Otherwise, it could be a real slog.

Patrick, you are wasting your time providing thoughtful arguments drawn from actual experience against Matt on this topic. No criticism of BM is permitted on this board. Why, every time I've had this discussion with Matt, he does what he just did and asks about Pine Valley. Last time I checked, PV was a course designed specifically to test the top golfers of its era, not high handicappers. Rest assured, he will add Bethpage Black to the list next, as though that was another course designed for playability of all levels.

I don't know if you guys know this, but the Prez just named Matt Golf Czar, so no more arguments are allowed... Matt's posts are now all true by definition.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Glad you can provide your insights on this post.

What you seem to miss is that -- PV is a great golf course (irrespective of how it treats high handicappers) -- so is Bethpage Black. Guess what they have in common? They don't treat worm burner type golfers well -- yet in neither case do they suffer a sniff of negativity in regards to their overall standing. The same can be said of your beloved Oakmont -- which I am a major fan of -- ditto the likes of places like Oakland Hills / South and others of this standing.

George, re-read what's been posted -- the test for playability now must handle worm bunrer type golf. That is now the threshold for greatness. Really? Andy made the point quite correctly -- "Quite frankly I'm with Matt here--if you're not any good you should be playing the most forward set of tees which measure 5,162 yards with minimal forced carries. The failure of people to not make the forced carries at Black Mesa is likely tee choice as much as anything. I love for people to learn the game, but there are only a handful of top courses that I'd recommend to someone that can't hit the ball 30 yards in the air with some consistency."

Let me also point out that Andy nails it big time when he says recovery is indeed possible at BM ... "I do think Black Mesa is better than 90% of the other desert courses in New Mexico and Arizona at allowing the golfer a chance to find their ball and often to get it back in play. At most of the other courses its pretty much gone, whereas I've found at least 75% of my errant shots at BM over the years."

[George Pazin]

George, re-read what's been posted -- the test for playability now must handle worm bunrer type golf. That is now the threshold for greatness. Really?

Matt, in all of these ridiculous threads, has any person - ANY PERSON - made the claim that playability is the threshold for greatness? How many have even made the claim that worm burners are the test for playability?

If you think that accomodating worm burners is my objection to BM as highly playable for high handicappers, you have not read a single word I've posted and I won't waste my time retyping it for the 1000th time. Read Patrick's last post for a fitting summary.

I don't doubt PV's or BB's greatness. I do doubt they are playable for all levels of golfers, as that was never even in their missions statements, nor do I believe it should have been. Same goes for Oakmont.

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