Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)

[Tom Yost]

This thread rocks!!  Thanks in advance for providing yardage info along with the descriptions.

[Anthony Gray]

This thread rocks!!  Thanks in advance for providing yardage info along with the descriptions.

 Agreed. It will make viewing the tournament more enjoyable.

  Great Job.........Thanks

 

[Jason Topp]

Thanks for doing this.  If possible, could you put yardages for the US Open and from the tees used for normal play in the descriptions?

[Patrick Kiser]

Charles / Philip,

As mentioned by several, thanks for getting this thread going.  Right in line with some of the Tim Bert threads.

This is exactly what GCA needs more of.  I especially enjoy the tid bits of Tillie insight.  Most appreciated.

[Steve Lapper]

Keep in mind one of Tilly's greatest architectural strategies is the use of offsetting angles btw tee and fairway, and then again from fairway to green. This is most evolved and evident at BB with #'s 2,4,5,10,11,13,and 16 all revealing such a strategic trait. QR and the WF's also have this strength and as such, play more difficult than when first viewed.

BB's #5 may well be the greatest example of this, calling for a precise fade off the box (ideally landing just shy of the bunker complex), followed by a high draw to find the green.

Merion comes to mind as possessing and near -perfecting the use of the offsetting angles, so perhaps all the talk of Mac, Wilson and Flynn is really just BS...It was our favorite imbiber, AWT, who really designed the track!!

[Phil_the_Author]

In the year 2000, GOLF Magazine announced their choices of the 18 best golf holes of the millenium... The 478-yard 5th on Bethpage Black is one of them and deservedly so.

Steve Lapper makes an interesting comment that it calls "for a precise fade off the box..." Actually the brilliance of this hole's design is that it not only demands a near-perfect tee shot, but that it rewards any and all shot types equally. A controlled fade, a controlled draw or, as my Scottish caddy Jerry once said, "Ye hit the dreaded straight one..."

On a course filled with extra-large bunkers, the one that needs carrying off the tee is probably the largest that most players will ever see or play... until they get to teh 7th hole that is. But it is far more than a bunch of sand in the way. It angles to the fairway which angles to the tee and so wreaks havoc with how to place the drive into a spot in the right-center of the fairway that is far enough out to afford a reasonable chance at the green with the second shot. This hole is the use of angles at its finest. Anything in the center or left has a progressively diminishing chance at allowing even a well-struck shot to clear the trees and reach the green which is tucked back left beyond them. It is almost a unique version of a cape hole in that regard.

By the way, the trees didn't grow in over the years, they are original to the forest that was cut through to form the course...

So there you are, having driven it 280 down the right side having barely carried the edge of the bunker and quite proud of yourself, when you look at what is next and see that you now face a 200-yard uphill shot to a green that even as an oval is considerably wider than it is deep. The front bunkers are deep and cavernous, yet better there than in the rough which is a form of green linguini from which knives and fork may be better than a wedge at getting out.

The back side bunker, which looks so benign is really very delicate and challenging for those attempting an up & down. That is because it is quite shallow and the player often has very little room in which to play at toward the hole. Many a shot has found the front bunker from here.

The green is another of those "I don't care what they say I ain't flat like you think" putting surfaces. At Open speeds there are few straight putts and some with as much as 18+ inches break.
 
Par isn't a good score on this hole... it is an achievement...

[Mark Woodger]

great thread. Reminds me what a good course BB is and makes me wish i got off my a$$ and played there this year before the open!

I agree Steve Lapper's comments regarding the requirement to shape shots around BB and the switching from Draw to Fade requriements and back again. I struggled on the 5th to hit the draw required on the second shot both time i have played there.  

[tlavin]

This thread is the best golf gift of the year!

[Charlie Goerges]

I've gone ahead and added a scale to my aerial posts, it's not perfectly aligned with the teeboxes but it is usable for figuring out distances.

Note: I'll be posting number six in a few minutes.

[Charlie Goerges]

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[Charlie Goerges]

Hole 6 - 408 yards par 4:

[Phil McDade]

"It is almost a unique version of a cape hole in that regard."

That's really quite an insightful observation. It bears many of the hallmarks of a true cape, but not the famous ones like Mid-Ocean, because it moves in the opposite direction after the tee shot. One of those "dumbfounded on the tee" moments that I'm certain makes the golfer think a lot about where to go, and how to attack it.

[Phil_the_Author]

Blast Charlie, you're making it very difficult to write words that are worthy of the aerials and now with distances!  

The 6th hole is quirky in a way as it is singular in design for the Black. Every tee shot until now inspired good long drives hit "on the screws". This hole offers the choice of a nicely played 240-yarder just short of the rightiside bunker that the fairway ends into (so watch if your ball is rolling there), a 260-yarder with a bit of a draw to fit in-between the left bunker and the crest of the hill, or a "what the hell lets kill the damn thing" drive to try to carry down the hill to... who knows where since you can't see the landing area!

The best way to play this is to keep one's ego in check and lay up short of that right-hand bunker. from here it is about 165 yards downhill that plays no more than 140 or so. Easy right? Worng! For the green complex is severely bunkered. The putting surface itself looks fairly flat yet that is deceptive as the surrounding hilly terrain hides the tilt of the green. This will be clearly seen in Joe Bausch's photo of the green from behind.

The shot into the hole must be judged carefully as one will play a short-iron and so any wind will greatly effect the ball's flight. In the wind it is a very difficult shot.

This is a good strong hole where birdie is possible with two weel-played shots while a small miss guarantees a bogey or worse...

[Phil_the_Author]

Phil,

Tilly's definition of a Cape Hole really comes into play on #5. Writing about holes that turn, after defining a the differences between a dogleg and an elbow hole, he said, "There is still a third variation, where a corner is formed close by the green itself, usually by the encroachment of a hillside or sandy waste, and this type is known as a Cape hole."

[Charlie Goerges]

Hey Phil, the aerials wouldn't mean much without the analysis and the ground level photos...We're all just cogs in the machine!

I'll add the US Open Yardages to my posts. I'm not sure where I'll find the everyday yardages.


Note: I'll probably add #7 at around 4pm cst and #8 at about 7pm cst


Hey, who has some images of #6? Let's see them! (Joe B, I'm lookin' at you!)

[Doug Wright]

I'm exhausted just reading this thread--and it's just the 6th hole! I can't imagine what it's like to play the course (which I haven't).

Is the 6th hole a "breather" hole?

Thanks for this great thread.

[Joe Bausch]

Hole No 6 pics:

From the edge of the tee box:



From near the beginning of the FW:



From just past the left FW bunker:



Looking back from just past the left FW bunker:



A more aggressive drive that gets down the hill can leave this view for a short iron 2nd shot:



The view of the green from the next tee:

[Phil_the_Author]

By the way, for those who were raised with the idea that Sam Snead walked off the Black during his September 28, 1940, exhibition match on either the 4th or 5th hole (and even a few say on 15), it NEVER happened... I'll give you the details at 18 where it ended... 

[Tony_Chapman]

Maybe someone can provide a bit more insight, but I was in the doctor's office on Monday reading the ESPN The Magazine article with Mike Davis. I believe he said they had a closely mown area behind the 4th for 2002, but have eliminated some of it for this year because they thought guys were less likely to go for the fourth and be 20 yards over the green, but with the addition of some light rough this year behind the green they expect more guys will go for the green.

Thoughts?

[Mike Sweeney]

Maybe someone can provide a bit more insight, but I was in the doctor's office on Monday reading the ESPN The Magazine article with Mike Davis. I believe he said they had a closely mown area behind the 4th for 2002, but have eliminated some of it for this year because they thought guys were less likely to go for the fourth and be 20 yards over the green, but with the addition of some light rough this year behind the green they expect more guys will go for the green.

Thoughts?

Tony,

As you can see from the picture, it probably depends on the pin placement. In general, you would really need a perfect lie to hold that green with a long iron, but a hybrid is doable. Right of the green is very safe and an easy chip and putt for these guys.

[Matt_Ward]

The only way you can go at the 4th green is after a MONSTER tee shot that allows a mid-to-short iron -- the green is still quite narrow and if dry will be very firm. And then you do that only because you are seeking eagle. The safe way to make birdie is to hit your second shot out further to the right to eliminate the frontal bunker and then make a solid pitch / chip for the birdie.

[Charlie Goerges]

Hole 7 - 525 yards par 4

[Steve Kupfer]

The only way you can go at the 4th green is after a MONSTER tee shot that allows a mid-to-short iron -- the green is still quite narrow and if dry will be very firm. And then you do that only because you are seeking eagle. The safe way to make birdie is to hit your second shot out further to the right to eliminate the frontal bunker and then make a solid pitch / chip for the birdie.

I hit a very high iron shot, and having played this hole upwards of 25 times (granted, not as many times as you, Matt) its nearly impossible to hold on the second shot unless you can bring it straight down or can get tremendous back spin.  There is a subtle downslope only a few feet long on the front edge of the green over  that will push a ball that lands right on the front collar of the green all the way to the rear grass repository (this makes bunker shots here tricky for the average amateur).  Matt's suggestion above is certainly the best birdie strategy. I imagine few, if any, players chase eagle here.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Getting a ball to stop on #4 is no easy feat. You are hitting from a lower area to a much higher target at the greensite.

If players can draw the tee ball and have it bypass the left hand bunker it's possible to find a flat spot in the fairway from that position and have no more than 175-190 yards out. At that point a very high / soft iron can do the trick and stay on the green. I agree with the USGA in providing some form of rough as a backstop because anything with pace can easily run through the green and without that rough cut would keep on going into oblivion.

The smart play is as I mentioned - play one's second shot way to the right -- this avoids the frontal bunker and provides for a fairly straightforward chip / pitch to the green.

Gents:

Hats off to the USGA / Mike Davis in eliminating the silly rough cut that was grown all the way across the 6th hole -- this prevented players from the option in reaching the bottom of the hill with a bomb tee shot. That option has since returned.

[Joe Bausch]

Some pics of the 7th hole: