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Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 13 in progress)
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2009, 03:08:31 PM »
The bunker you see out to the left is a new one (it may be two bunkers, I can't remember) added by R Jones, I believe last year or late 2007:



Here is a close-up of it, and me thinks it might get some play as I know I've frequently bailed left on this hole off the tee:



CG's aerial from Google Earth is probably from before 2008 as that bunker is not shown, nor is the new back tee box which I think makes the hole play some unbelievable number like 650 yards.  The tee is also farther to the left than the previous back tee.  It was in mid October of 2007 when I snapped some pics of the tee under construction:










« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 03:40:07 PM by Joe Bausch »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 13 in progress)
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2009, 03:27:23 PM »
I can only hope the USGA will have the good sense in playing the 13th from a shorter position for at least two (2) days of the championship -- this would allow a majority of the field to give it a go at the green in two blows. In '02 the green was within the target range of the longest players -- Tiger, if I recall correctly, was able to get there.

In regards to the bunkers added to the drive zone on the left - I don't know what they add save for the visual appeal in having sand for the sake of sand.

The thing to keep in mind is that when the hole is played at max length -- if yoiu should hit it into the rough it's doubtful players will be able to get past the choke poiint where the long time fairway bunker that's about 140-150 yards out if situated. The fairway width at that point can get v-e-r-y tight. Laying back before it will mean a 3rd shot in the range of 160-170 yards.
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 13 in progress)
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2009, 08:23:43 PM »
I know this thread got side tracked with some tech issues, but while we are here, what do people that have played the course with the new fairway bunker on #13 think of it?

I am not crazy about the fingers in the bunker, but the placement looks very interesting. Due to #4, this hole does not get its due but I think it is a very good hole due to the 2nd shot landing area, and I agree with Matt that they need to vary the distance.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 13 in progress)
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2009, 09:41:20 PM »
Just got in after spending the day with Matt Kuchar walking the course and sharing some thoughts. His game looks very good!

The course is VERY wet after days of rain. I think that we can forget fast & firm...

The greens were stimping today at 11... according to my buddy's on the maintenance crew they begin getting them up to 13.5-14.5 tonight. There was a lot of break in them at 11.

The 8th hole will be played with a very front hole and from the front of the very front tee... about 135-140 yards! Already saw one player back it into the pond!

Sorry guys, but 14 is playing super!

Anyway, as I am really beat, let me tell you this about 13. First a history lesson. This is really sacred ground, for it is the place the Indians who sold it to Thomas Powell in the 1680's had named "Rim of the Woods." According to newspaper accounts when Bethpage was opened, it was the location where the Duke of York showed Thomas Dongan (Colonial Governor of New York) and Thomas Powell (who had just bought the land and would name a village Bethphage - correct spelling) how to play golf in 1688. The only problem with this is that in 1688 the Duke of York went by another name, King James of England! Still, there may have been a representative who visited and is the source of the legend... So Bethpage Black MAY be where golf was first played in America!

To answer Matt's question, YES both tees will be used. Actually the hole plays BETTER from the back one! The fairway bunkers (all three) are very much in play for much of the field while the longest hitters can give the green a run in two shots.

When I catch my wind I'll add more and on the next holes as well...
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 14 in progress)
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2009, 10:31:07 PM »
Onward we March...

Hole 14 – 158 yards par 3:



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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 14 in progress)
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2009, 10:31:24 PM »
Thanks to Uncle Joe for the continued support (Hole 14):







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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 14 in progress)
« Reply #106 on: June 15, 2009, 09:33:43 AM »
There are three changes to this hole since 2002, or rather, 2 changes and one recovery.

The upper back portion that runs the entire width of the green and extends behind the right-hand side bunker is a RECOVERED portion of green that was part of its original design. The two changes are a left greenside bunker and a front left tongue to the green which extends between the bunkers.

There were two "problems" with the hole in 2002. The first, and least, was that the hole was too easy and was the only hole to play under par. The second and "real" problem was that there were few places to set holes that other than the front portion of the green. This has now changed and after watching several players yesterday I can say with certainty that the far back right & front left in the tongue will be wonderful challenges!

Matt Kuchar played back left tee to back right hole and hit a 6-iron and was just at the front edge of the upper right putting surface. He then hit a soft 9-iron and found the front bunker before hitting another hard one that he left to the right and above the hole...

This hole really works well... Of course that is just my opinion and I know a few who may possibly disagree...  ;D

THis year they've put  grandstand behind the hole (there wasn't one in 2002) so anything long CAN'T run down the hill...
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 15 in progress)
« Reply #107 on: June 15, 2009, 09:41:33 AM »
Hole 15 – 458 yards par 4:


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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 15 in progress)
« Reply #108 on: June 15, 2009, 09:41:45 AM »
Hole 15 from Joe B:











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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 15 in progress)
« Reply #109 on: June 15, 2009, 09:59:08 AM »
I take great pride in admitting that I once 8-putted from 8 feet on this green! But before we get to that...

It is missing the horses who spent many a day in the huge corral waiting to be rented for rides around the park, and yes, a good number of drives found their way into them.

THis year it will play every inch of its length and though the right-side of the fairway has been widened a bit, left is still the best. The green is the most severe on the course and has been compared to Augusta often by many tour players such as Davis Love who, in 2002, said that it was "more severe than anything at Augusta."

Getting there, though, is more than half the fun. It is a sharp 40ish foot climb up a hill to where the green sits perched on a cliff edge. The bunkers, especially the front right, are cut into the hill and one can get lost in them. You DON'T want to be in them. You not only can't see the putting surface, but the spectators can't even see you!

The green is fabulous and winding and wonderful, and has a false front that I wish the USGA had allowed the fairway to continue up the slope so that someone would have had the joy of watching a putt or iron in catch and roll back down and off it and down to the fairway! But I'm just a tad bit sick that way!

OF course sick is the maintenance worker who in 1989, for some reason awoke angry with the world and cut the green really tight and located the hole at the very edge of the false front. From 8' below it I sent put after putt up the slope only to have it come back to me... and beyond. I finally sank a 12-footer!   
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 15 in progress)
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2009, 10:15:40 AM »
Here is an early aerial of the 14th green (a photo of a photo of the aerial hanging in the clubhouse!) for comparison sake.

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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Carl Nichols

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 15 in progress)
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2009, 11:35:40 AM »
Joe:
Looks like you had a terrific day out there -- amazing pics.

Phil:
When you were discussing driving distance several posts back, were you looking at data regarding total distance or carry only (which is what the players needed to get to the fairway)?   Your post says "Even on Friday with the terrible wind and rain fatored in, only 6% of ALL DRIVES hit did not travel at least 252 yards, or long enough to find the fairway."  I can't tell if you're referring just to drives on 10 or drives on all holes, but if it's drives on all holes, total distance of 252 (on other holes) isn't the same as a carry of 252.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 15 in progress)
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2009, 12:02:53 PM »
Is anybody interested in some green side bunker comparisons from an early aerial of the course (around 1940, I think) and now (via Google Earth)?  Shall I squeeze them into this thread or start a new one?  I don't know how informative this will be, but it is fun putting them together!
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 15 in progress)
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2009, 12:20:17 PM »
Quote from: Joe Bausch on June 15, 2009, 12:02:53 PM
Is anybody interested in some green side bunker comparisons from an early aerial of the course (around 1940, I think) and now (via Google Earth)?  Shall I squeeze them into this thread or start a new one?  I don't know how informative this will be, but it is fun putting them together!

Go for it Joe.
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 16 in progress)
« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2009, 12:21:19 PM »
Hole 16 – 490 yards par 4:


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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 16 in progress)
« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2009, 12:21:31 PM »
Hole 16 from Joe B:




















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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 16 in progress)
« Reply #116 on: June 15, 2009, 12:30:23 PM »
I took a photo of the 1940-era aerial of the course that is hanging in the clubhouse.  Below is a crude hole-by-hole comparison of the greenside bunkering then and now on the front nine, now being the Google Earth photo from a few years ago, I think.  

PLEASE note the greens are not to scale (although you can compare the green sizes within all the early photos, as well as within all the 'now' photos).






« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 12:34:00 PM by Joe Bausch »
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@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 16 in progress)
« Reply #117 on: June 15, 2009, 04:51:38 PM »
Carl,

In 2002 the drives on 10 were measured for carry and distance. Th numbers I referred to were CARRY numbers. The % on Friday was 16 not 6, with it being 6 % overall for all four days.

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Emil Weber

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 16 in progress)
« Reply #118 on: June 15, 2009, 05:25:14 PM »
Thak you for Great Tour!!!

Interesting to see the comparsions btween the old and new aerials of the greens. Is Bethpage planning to restore the course somewhen in the future?
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Paul_Lorenzen

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 16 in progress)
« Reply #119 on: June 15, 2009, 06:37:45 PM »
Phil,
2 questions regard 8:

1. In Joe's old photo of 8, there appears to be a bunker short right - about where today's tree is. Was that a bunker? When was it removed?
2. Do I recall a pond to the left of 8 green in the 60s/70s or did my lifestyle in college betray me?

Ok - maybe 3 questions.

Thanks, Paul
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 16 in progress)
« Reply #120 on: June 15, 2009, 08:25:27 PM »
HI Paul,

yes, the entire front of that hillside was a bunker. Poor maintenance in the late '30's and then WWII and beyond caused it to melt imto the ground and grass grew over it. If you look carefully you can still see portions of it showing through. The tree is actually a result of poor maintenance. It can be clearly seen as a two-foot tall sapling in the 1940 photograph of the Byron Nelson - Sam Snead exhibition match.

Unfortunately this will be its last Open as it is diseased and dying and will probably be taken down next year.

Your college lifestyle not withstanding, there was another pond to the left of the green, right in the heart of what is now a "chipping area" (I hate them!)  ;D

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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 17 in progress)
« Reply #121 on: June 15, 2009, 09:22:12 PM »
Hole 17 – 207 yards par 3:



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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 17 in progress)
« Reply #122 on: June 15, 2009, 09:22:22 PM »
Hole 17 from Joe B:












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Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 17 in progress)
« Reply #123 on: June 15, 2009, 09:36:49 PM »
My main issue with #15 is that the mowing lines were pushed further to the right and the rough allowed to grow in previous fairway area so that the tee balls need to be played out more and more to the right.

#15 is almost too demanding for anyone save for the long ball hitters. Having the fairway extended more to the left would provide an alley-way area for the average length player to favor and thereby reducing club selection accordingly.

What's even more amazing -- the real tip tee box is not even used because of gallery stands. Can only imagine what the 15th would play from say 480 yards !

One final aspect -- if the 15th green were duplicated throughout the course the four round totals would be lucky to be sniffing someone below 290.
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #124 on: June 16, 2009, 09:23:12 AM »
Here we go with the final installment. Hopefully Phil will be able to add his commentary and also retroactively add a few for the earlier holes that may still be missing it. Phil, fee free to email me anything that you'd like posted in the appropriate places but don't have time to do while at the Open.

Hole 18 – 411 yards par 4:


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