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Michael Whitaker

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Even the massive pit in front of the 16th (?) green is not really an example of alpinization. (My host speculated that it was a gift from the Luftwaffe. ;))

Bob - Here is your "pit" on the 16th at Huntercombe.  And, yes, it is massive!!!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Sean_A

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Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2013, 03:26:30 AM »
Just bumping this thread to see if others have opinions on the matter(s).

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2013, 06:49:36 AM »
Sean:

This was nice to read again now that I've seen Kington and Huntercombe.

Part of the reason for my trip was that I have a new project which is flattish with few features, and I am thinking of using more mounding than bunkers to drive up the strategy of the holes.  Not sure yet whether the client will be in favor, but I know the superintendent will be.

Yelverton might have been another course that belongs in the discussion.  The trench and mounds that go across in front of the 13th and 18th greens and 2nd tee at Yelverton is exactly the sort of hazard I see building on a couple of holes.  Don't know that I can find any Dartmoor ponies to hang about on my new course, though.

David_Tepper

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Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2013, 09:25:23 AM »
I am surprised the sizable "gum drop" mounds short & right of the 16th green at Royal Dornoch were not mentioned on this thread. The 16th hole there is the least favorite hole of many, but the mounds do a good job of guarding the right side of the green. There is also a mound guarding the left side of entry to the 12th green at RDGC that really makes the hole.

At Golspie, there are a series of hollows between the 4th & 18th holes that come into play on both holes. There are other useful hollows between #15 & #18.  

  

Tom Kelly

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Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2013, 09:58:24 AM »
A couple of examples of the Taylor mounds at Royal Mid Surrey.





I can imagine they are awkward to maintain and they look man made but I quite like them. They give the course a unique character.

Paul Gray

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Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2013, 10:03:32 AM »
Just a thought I's been mulling over for a bit:

Artificial mounding only works when it serves to accentuate the low ground. The picture of the 13th green at Kingston seems a case in point.  
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2013, 05:54:22 PM »
Gentlemen,
Once one heads down the path of artificial mounding on the golf course does one have to have "alpinisation", to a greater or lesser degree, on most every hole so that there is a continuity or at least some uniformity to the appearance of the course overall? I personally don't think so as I envisage mounding as just one of a multitude of hazards that can be presented. Nonetheless, do architects feel otherwise?

Ulrich,
Have the "alps" on your course softened their peaks over the last five years? They do look a bit extreme as mentioned by one of the posters, hopefully they've mellowed!

Sean,
A great thread that I overlooked in my scouring of GCA tales! Thanks for this and it is now in the "archive"!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2013, 06:01:36 PM »
Colin,

yes, my home course has grown in and the alpinisations are smoother now. Here are more current pictures:





Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2013, 04:53:25 AM »
Sean

Thanks for bumping this thread.

The course that I grew up on from 1923 had/has a ring of humps flanking and at the bank of nearly every green and I've seen it elsewhere quite a lot. What you maybe don't see all that often now is extensive alpinisation between tee and green. The reason for that I suspect was that as they went out of fashion they were quite easy to remove. Less so when they are part of the green complex. The quote from Colt that Charlie posted about fashions in golf design quickly becoming threadbare is probably apt in this instance.

When I was staying up in the frozen wastes of the north of Scotland I played a couple of courses that had some quite extensive alpinisation on a few of the holes, namely at Hopeman and the nine holer at Rothes which is relatively modern. On a few of the holes it was used in the inside of the dogleg in the same way you would position a bunker and one of the others it was used on a short par 4 where the whole landing area was covered in them so it became pot luck as to how you ended up. A timely reminder that golf isn't meant to be fair.

All of the holes worked well for me and as for looking unnatural, well that is less of a concern to me these days. Having an interesting golf hole ranks higher than one that is beautiful/natural or has a nice view for me but appreciate everyone is different.

Niall

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2013, 11:13:20 AM »
I wrote this for Golf Course Industry in 2008.  Will draw a few catcalls from some, I presume.  But, the main message is, mounds do have their uses.

I will also note that the problems I saw with perimeter mounding on lower budget courses was that the irrigation simply didn't reach the far side.  Like anything else, the details must match the concept to make it work.

In defense of the mound

Golf course mounds have always been around.  I see what appear to be “built” mounds even at the Old Course.  Donald Ross included a chapter in “Golf Has Never Failed Me” called “Solid Mound Work.” But, modern golf course architects expanded earthmoving as artwork compared to their predecessors, until the last few years, when they have fallen out of favor faster than white after Labor Day.
Owners and golfers are tired of “90’s style” golf course mounds and they are vilified now because of over and misuse.  Even I am tired of them and have become a reformed mound-a-holic,
Believe it or not, Golden Age architects used mounds similarly to modern architects - to support bunkers and frame greens. They built then at smaller scales with horses and scoops, giving them subtle little slopes that looked natural and artistic.  Time has helped mounds “season” as tree planting and changing grass lines keep them from looking as artificial. 
After World War II, mechanized earthmoving evolved and so did mounds – they got bigger and more prolific.  But, they looked more repetitive and less natural, for many reasons:
•   Paper Designed mounds related too strictly to greens or fairways, typically fitting repetitively on most inside mowing curves, rather than following more random patterns.
•   Philosophy. With bulldozers, the land was putty in our hands, and mounds were built to stand out as manmade, not blend in as natural.   
•   Repetition. No golf course architect or shaper is as varied as nature. If a course has hundreds of mounds, many start looking alike. The tendency is to build mounds of similar height and slope no matter how hard we try to emulate natural contours.  Even when a green site has a gentle side slope, often, the backing mounds are built to one height, rather than having the highest mounds on the higher natural side of the green
•   Steepness. When economics got tougher, saving fill and construction cost by building steeper slopes.  Robert Trent Jones and others built 5-7 to 1 slope, which looked natural in rolling terrain.  Later, in an effort to get higher and more dramatic, mounds are often built at 3:1slopes – the maximum slope most mowers can handle – or even steeper on “Scottish Links” courses.
•   No “Feathered Slopes”.  Even steeper slopes can look good, if the toe of slope ties more naturally into natural grade at 6:1 or greater, even if the bulk of the mound is fairly steep, and many golf course architects lost sight of this.
However, mounds can be built to look good, and they do have many practical visual, strategic and speed of play uses:
•   Creating a sense of “enclosure” on fairways and frames for greens to defined spaces.  Trees do this, but on open land, mounds and ridges separate holes more cheaply and immediately than immature plantings.
•   Holding approach shots without sufficient back spin near the green, a problem for average players. And, with faster greens and flatter slopes, those shots roll out even further, making small backing mounds even more necessary. 
•   Encouraging good players to play more aggressively at back pins. 
•   Containing Shots on the fairway or “turn” doglegs left or right
•   Artificially create a “valley” fairway which is always a comfortable shot
•   Helping with distance judgment
•   Creating variation in fairway landing areas and lies, especially in landing zones beyond 300 yards where building bunkers for the small percentage of long hitters isn’t justified.
•   Testing the short game around greens
•   Creating shadow patterns for aesthetics
•   Most golf course architects use these fairway mounds Adjacent to fairways, they can do many of the same things:
•   Screen objectionable views (like the maintenance area or unsightly off site land uses)
•   Provide safety from adjacent fairways or practice fairways
•   Give landscape plantings a good “head start” on achieving a desirable height
•   Show off landscape plantings, by allowing back plantings to be higher than front ones
•   Hide Cart Paths (although care must be taken to leave wide access routes)
•   Create drainage
While mounds solve some problems, they create others:
•   They take longer and are more dangerous in some cases to mow
•   They require more irrigation and/or often dry out
•   While they contain moderately off line tee shots, wild shots clearing the mounds have a blind approach and potential safety problems
•   When hot approach shots do land wide of the mounds, they result in a difficult pitch.

Hopefully, mounds will find favor again, at least if used where they serve one or more valuable purposes and are built to fit the site, rather than being the be-all end-all of design.  They deserve a better reputation than they currently have.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2013, 02:21:54 PM »
Jeff

Thanks for posting that article.

Do you make the distinction between alpinisation and your use of mounding ?

Niall

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2013, 02:37:27 PM »
Didn't Pete Dye put a lot of "chocolate drops" at some courses and/or holes, i.e. #18 at Sawgrass?  I liked them there even though they were clearly artificial and looked out of place - if you played away from the water you'd find them and could lead to an average or terrible lie, a little rub of the green but still more manageable to hit a good next shot than a bunker shot towards the pond.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2013, 07:11:07 PM »
Mounds and hollows are fine but they look awfully unnatural when they are graded with a globular shape. Nature doesn't make perfectly rounded hills.

The mounding that was built with horse drawn scrapers and hand rakes generally looks more natural.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2013, 01:31:23 PM »
Niall,

For whatever reason, I always thought "alpinisation" was a lot sharper than my, or most modern mounding. Probably just how they did things in those days, with horses rather than bulldozers......

Bradley,

Yes, it is hard for a shaper on a bulldozer to comprehend as many shapes as nature does.  It usually gets repetitive.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2013, 06:27:31 PM »
Sean:

This was nice to read again now that I've seen Kington and Huntercombe.

Part of the reason for my trip was that I have a new project which is flattish with few features, and I am thinking of using more mounding than bunkers to drive up the strategy of the holes.  Not sure yet whether the client will be in favor, but I know the superintendent will be.

Yelverton might have been another course that belongs in the discussion.  The trench and mounds that go across in front of the 13th and 18th greens and 2nd tee at Yelverton is exactly the sort of hazard I see building on a couple of holes.  Don't know that I can find any Dartmoor ponies to hang about on my new course, though.

Tom

Yes, Yelverton uses dykes, cops, alps, trenches and hollows very well.  My favourites are 13 & 16, but I also like the 17th and 12th a lot.  I hope to get back down there some day.  

13



16


17


12


Ciao
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 06:30:59 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2013, 07:57:25 PM »
Sean

    Awesome photos, Huntercombre is top on my list to play.  I did a report on it.  I agree totally with you that hallows aren't used enough in modern design, there is so much you can do with them, so many textures and different grasses, different heights.  For Championship courses they are tougher for pro's and are easier for avg golfers who struggle in sand bunkers and pro's play better out of sand than grass.  More Grass bunkers needed, just like sand bunkers it is an art i'd imagine and if not pulled off right would look bad.  Again, i love the photo's!


BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alpinization (a fancy way of saying mounds) and Hollows: Are They Viable?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2013, 08:11:06 PM »
Yes, quite viable...



...sorry, couldn't resist. 

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
I personally do not mind properly done mounds on a golf course. I liked these at Rip Van Winkle CC (Ross) near Hunter, NY. I could not find the pics (lucky for you!) of Wild Wing where I hated the overdone mounds all over the course. Alpinization is great if it "fits in".





I also liked these at Water Gap CC in Pennsylvania.



« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 09:48:30 PM by Richard Hetzel »
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