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Matt_Ward

Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2009, 10:21:43 PM »
Can those who are most familiar speak to the conditioning issues raised at CB?

It seems some feel it's much ado about nothing and others have stated that the issue is far more serious than many might imagine.

Thanks ...

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2009, 10:24:52 PM »
Can those who are most familiar speak to the conditioning issues raised at CB?

It seems some feel it's much ado about nothing and others have stated that the issue is far more serious than many might imagine.

Thanks ...

Matt, maybe it's like the conditioning at Apache Stronghold, all in the eyes of the beholder.

Although I guess it's gone beyond that at Apache Stronghold, which is a bummer.

Matt_Ward

Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2009, 10:29:26 PM »
Bill:

I can speak to what happened at AS -- having been there several times to see firsthand. AS is REALLY bad from my last visit there and it hurts to see such a supber layout be held back in that regard. If CB is in the same way -- then that would be a tragedy.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2009, 10:35:21 PM »
Bill:

I can speak to what happened at AS -- having been there several times to see firsthand. AS is REALLY bad from my last visit there and it hurts to see such a supber layout be held back in that regard. If CB is in the same way -- then that would be a tragedy.

Matt - 10 rounds, conditioning not a factor.  How do you split up AS / Black Mesa / Chambers Bay (which I haven't played yet)?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2009, 01:08:18 AM »
Fine Tom, WV is an 8.5 on a GOLFWEEK scale.  JC

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2009, 02:41:57 AM »
#8 at CB is a bit of a tight rope - the fairway is quite wide but right is dead and too far left means its time to put on your mountain climbing boots. What is wrong with requiring a couple of good properly hit shots to reach the green? This is not a crap hole, although it is not the best one out there either.

#9 is kind of fun and the view is exhilarating. I think the weakness in the par 3s at Chambers lie in #15 and #17 which are too similar for my taste. I don't disagree that maybe #8 and #9 could have been routed more effectively but they are still interesting and both are unique on the course.

Most people cannot seem to look past the conditioning at CB which is unfortunate. It is a really fun layout with a lot of diversity and challange.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2009, 03:43:30 AM »
Matt, there is no conditioning issue at Chambers, there is green speed issue. It is running at about 4 to 5. The people at the pro shop and the bus drivers and the starters saying that the greens are running at 6 to 8 is not helping the matters any.

The fairways are fine (firm and fast) and tees are fine as well. The traps are penal in a good way and the tall grasses are filling in the tractor tracks.

Fortunately, the greens are looking better and better. When I was there a couple of weeks ago, the grass density was very very good and they looked very healthy. As soon as they cut them low and roll them, they should be rolling at 8 at least. I believe they will start cutting greens to the normal height in about another 2 or 3 weeks.

So, other than the fact that the #4 green is completely being rebuilt, the conditioning issue is fastly becoming an old news.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2009, 02:41:30 AM »
Here's a recent photo showing the maturing florescence of the Fine Fescue rough on #2 at Wine Valley . . .


Hixson photo.

Jonathan, glad you could make it out to Walla Walla and thanks for the appreciation.  Did you take any onions or wine back with you?

 And which fairway do you think would make the best emergency landing strip ? 
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2009, 02:52:10 AM »
Oh hell yeah, Slaggy, that is looking tremendous!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #109 on: June 18, 2009, 05:52:45 AM »
Slaggie,

Wine Valley is a great course!  Sand Hills for the public.  It's a Wild Horse but even better.  The regional wine doesn't live up to the golf course (I admit, I'm a snob).  However sweet Walla Wall sweets are, they are still onions.  Packing them in my luggage for a cross-country flight would have permanently "odorized" everything in my suitcase.

Landing strips??  I could land any of our planes on most any hole and not ever dust the bellies.

Reminds me of a flying story.

Years ago a DC-3 reported gear up stuck trouble on a flight into Hartford.  There was time enough to get the local news crew out to film the landing live.  A DC-3 at stall speed with full flaps is someting like 60mph.  The pilot slowed this lumbering beast to a snail's pace just over the numbers and gently landed with no fanfare.

There was one passenger, a businessman who was interviewed right after the incident.  When asked of the experience the guy said, "hell, I've had worst landing with the gear down!"

JC

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #110 on: June 18, 2009, 09:41:00 AM »
Okay, there are 100+ posts on this thread and there is not one description of a single hole at Wine Valley to reinforce why it's great.  There are actually descriptions of holes at Chambers Bay and Tetherow, but not Wine Valley.

There are lots of gratuitous pictures of bunkers, and we have Jonathan's word that the course has "out-of-this-world bunkering."  Now, I know a couple of the guys who built those bunkers, and I like most of the pictures I've seen.  Still, I would hereby like to introduce a new term to GCA: 

Are YOU a bunker slut?

Because if you love a course so much that you don't even bother to describe any of the great holes, then I think you are.  And there are lots of bunker sluts on this site.

P.S. to Jonathan:  Your 8.5 on the GOLFWEEK scale just proves that GOLFWEEK ratings are for wimps.  Maybe you should change the masthead to "GOLFWEAK" for ratings editions.


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2009, 09:54:39 AM »
Wine Valley is a great course!  Sand Hills for the public.  It's a Wild Horse but even better. 

Seriously, isn't this getting to be too much of hyperbole?

What's next? It's West Coast's Pine Valley? It's Cypress Point without water? Pebble Beach can SUCK IT???

I am just going to have to brave the long drive just to settle this once and for all.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #112 on: June 18, 2009, 11:19:38 AM »
Wine Valley is a great course!  Sand Hills for the public.  It's a Wild Horse but even better. 

Seriously, isn't this getting to be too much of hyperbole?

What's next? It's West Coast's Pine Valley? It's Cypress Point without water? Pebble Beach can SUCK IT???

I am just going to have to brave the long drive just to settle this once and for all.

Settle it in your mind, Richard, or did you recently turn into Matt Ward!!!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2009, 11:30:19 AM »
Tom Doak,

You make a somewhat valid point, but you are simply looking at the wrong thread.

I posted an assessment of Wine Valley nearly hole by hole about five weeks ago....

Here is a cut and paste of that....

The first thing I want to say about Wine Valley is even in a bunk economy I predict it will be a success.  They have a fun golf course out there in Walla Walla.  The sophomore effort of designer Dan Hixson, the primary virtue of the course rests in him sticking to the basic tenets of links golf; wind, width and undulating firm turf.

Wine Valley occupies farmland; wheat and alfalfa.  Someday there will be houses on the golf course, but for now it’s wide open.  The rolling hills made finding golf holes simple; even Dan said it would be hard to mess this up.  I’d guestimate the overall elevation change on the course, from highest to lowest point, to be somewhere around 100 ft. but I could be off.  It’s a large site on a grand scale, which will mess with your sense of distance.

The course is two loops of nine, the first five holes sort of paralleling one another moving south away from the clubhouse, and then you turn north at the one shot 6th and play back towards the clubhouse.  There is water in play on #3, #6 and #9.  Only at #3 is it really in play.

I preferred the back nine more, which consists of three par 4, three par 5 and three par 3 holes.  Additionally, the routing meanders out to the highest point on the property so there are wonderful vistas to be had coming home.  There is plenty of variety; reachable par 5s, both long and short par 3s.  I suppose the 4th is the closest thing to drivable par 4, but only to the likes of JB Holmes, Tiger Woods and perhaps Tyler, the super ;-)

I lost one ball, and I’m not hitting it very well right now.  The course is large, definitely on a scale larger than that of Bandon Crossings.  Many fairways are 75-100 yards wide and are a blend of fescue.  The greens are bent, however.  The long hay has yet to fully develop but will probably be amazing when it does.

This is something we talked about at one point.  I think the aesthetics of the course will improve once you are getting more color contrast between the turf and native.  They have plenty of work to do in the coming years, according to Dan there is some native stuff trying to re-establish a foothold; weeds, wheat, etc…..  Like any course, elements of the maintenance meld are a constant work in progress, but in the grand scheme of things, Tyler, the super, has a firm hold.  Dan talked quite a bit about how he thinks it is important to be able to find balls hit into the boon docks, and has advised not watering the deep hay in attempt to keep it sparse.

From a strict architectural and playability standpoint, the course is mature beyond its years.  It has grown in pretty quickly, and while some evidence of drainage/irrigation work is evident, the turf played much quicker than the turf we played on at Chambers Bay during our GCA gathering there a couple years back. 

The bunkers are an interesting lot.  Dan provided the construction folks with a concept "Vertical Cleavage."  All of the bunkers were crafted to mimic local landforms, Vertical Cleavage being a legitimate geologic landform.  As Jeff Doerr pointed out, additionally, Slag attempted to emulate distant mountain peaks in some of his bunkers.  Integrating local flavor into the golf course makes the difference between a good course and a charming course.

see vertical cleavage below....


I'm looking forward to seeing the bunkers mature, and cannot help but speculate on how they will look five years from now.  My personal opinion is they would look better with hairy grass noses/faces.  The Vertical Cleavage just looks dirty to me, no pun intended.  And I think they are always going to have a problem with something trying to grow on those faces, wanted or not.  Regardless, they are mean and intimidating, and at the end of the day bunkers should scream out “stay away.” These hazards serve this purpose in spades. 

The 17th hole, one of my favorites, has a cool dirt wall framing the left side of the fairway, but is the only hole with a feature of this sort.  Apparently 17 was the last hole constructed and I bet if Dan knew how well that feature would come out he would have incorporated it into the course elsewhere too.  To Hixson’s credit, there was a lot of effort put into randomizing/naturalizing the man-made features.  Again, credit here must go to the skills of Proctor, Goalby. Painter et al as well

A lot of effort was spent creating optical illusions and messing with the golfer’s depth perception.  The greens complexes at Wine Valley are well done.  Numerous short chipping areas, false fronts and dead elephants, etc.  You can approach the greens from different angles using the ground game, which I just love.  Dan mentioned the pro shop staff was telling him recently that the course is developing a strong female following because of the playability.  The course oozes creativity and playability.

Highlights for me included the 4th hole, a short par four with a large fronting wasteland to a shallow green.  #7 has a super cool green within a natural bowl.  To my mind this is a true punchbowl green, and it is so fun to hit approach shots long and have them back up towards the flagstick.

The 14th is Wine Valley’s “short” hole, and will lead to a lot of ugly scores. I hit my tee shot a little right into a greenside bunker and could muster no better than a double bogey I.E. sand shot and three putt.  This is the biggest green on the course and devilishly crafted by Kye Goalby.  75 yard putts await golfers who cannot hit accurate short irons.

#15 asks for a tee shot across a wasteland cross hazard.  Over time this hazard will only grow more and more hateful, as it should.  Following a successful drive, your approach shot is uphill and into the smallest green on the course.  While one of the more reachable three shots holes, I am inclined to think the prudent play is to lay up way out to the right.  Working uphill to one of the highest points on the property, this hole possesses wild undulations and deep cavernous bunkers.  Slag told me Dan Proctor spent quite a bit of time working over the back of this greens complex and it’s a beaut.

The closing stretch at Wine Valley is fabulous.  Slag crafted some of the bunkers on 17 and damn if they aren’t good stuff!  He pointed out to me that if the golfer’s tee shot is hit out to the right, behind the long cross bunker, one is left with a blind approach.  It’s hard to tell from the pictures but there are a couple of huge mounds out there that truly leave you feeling helpless.  One of the fellas in my group did such, and then didn’t get his ball up high enough and couldn’t clear the fairway bunker with his 2nd.  He fell right into the trap.  Even the green on this hole is a diabolical one.  When the pin is in the front putts from the back are better served played to the elbows of the green than on a direct line.  Hitting balls which turn 90 degrees like this is fun stuff…

#18 is a classic downhill closer.  The small bunker up near the green was added by Dan Proctor, and once again, kudos to Hixson for being receptive to his construction crew offering input, especially sage builders like Proctor, Caesar and Goalby.  #18 is a fitting closer to a fabulous round of golf.

In conclusion, Wine Valley GC is a major notch in Dan Hixson’s bedpost, and even though I really like the guy, I would not say that if I did not mean it.  Should you travel across the country to play it?  I’m not so sure about that, but should you travel from say, Seattle?  I think absolutely.  It should only get better and better as the course matures and the true strategy of the individual golf holes reveal themselves. 

It’s what Links magazine would call a Modern Classic.  I think if you are anywhere in the region you HAVE to go out and play it.  At the end of the day I think it equates to a Doak 6, with the potential to be a 7 or even 8 provided additional maturity and tweaks on the part of Hixson and ownership.  The course should be on the radar of any true student of golf course architecture. 

Thanks to everyone who showed me a great time in Walla Walla, I look forward to returning to your fabulous course.

And lastly here are pictures....









































What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2009, 12:17:36 PM »
Settle it in your mind, Richard, or did you recently turn into Matt Ward!!!

Matt WARD???!!!! (Shudder....)

If I come back saying that Wine Valley is better than Chambers Bay, you know there is something there since I am the biggest CB supporter on this site. If I come back believing CB is still better than WV, then it would only be settled in my own opinion.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2009, 12:22:06 PM »
Settle it in your mind, Richard, or did you recently turn into Matt Ward!!!

Matt WARD???!!!! (Shudder....)

If I come back saying that Wine Valley is better than Chambers Bay, you know there is something there since I am the biggest CB supporter on this site. If I come back believing CB is still better than WV, then it would only be settled in my own opinion.

Indeed, you are a true testicle tarzan when it comes to CB, Richard.

But knowing you think highly of Ballyneal, you'll appreciate WV
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2009, 12:25:33 PM »
Testicle Tarzan! Love it! :) But don't give Matt Schulte any ideas...

Now, you are not suggesting that Wine Valley is in the same league with Ballyneal, are you? Because that is TRULY some rarified air.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #117 on: June 18, 2009, 12:30:09 PM »
Testicle Tarzan! Love it! :) But don't give Matt Schulte any ideas...

Now, you are not suggesting that Wine Valley is in the same league with Ballyneal, are you? Because that is TRULY some rarified air.

Richard,

I already stated my position earlier on WV

Doak 6, could go as high as 8

From what everyone says, Ballyneal is a 9 or 10

So no, but the golf is similar, as opposed to something like Sahalee, which is not...
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2009, 12:55:04 PM »

Are YOU a bunker slut?



Yes, I am. I seem to get into 'em all. Though I like my bunkers a little on the trashy side, I don't care how pretty, ugly, big or small they are. Especially after I've had a few beers and my obligatory whisky toast.   Once, I was in a bunker so big I couldn't get out. I love them and I'm not ashamed of it.   Someday, I'm going to experiment with fairways.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #119 on: June 18, 2009, 01:25:35 PM »

#1 Green from #2 Fairway   June 2009  Horse Heaven Hills of Oregon in background.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 01:34:25 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2009, 01:43:06 PM »
Michael:

Nice post.  Sorry I missed it the first time, I was probably in China or somewhere.  But your post was worth more than the other 109 put together -- with no offense to Slag, the first official bunker slut.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2009, 02:38:59 PM »

#1 Green from #2 Fairway   June 2009  Horse Heaven Hills of Oregon in background.





See that Mr. Cummings! Horse Heaven Hills in the background! I don't think you know diddly squat about wine. I think your brain is warped from sniffing too many screw caps!




 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2009, 04:00:56 PM »

Are YOU a bunker slut?



Yes, I am. I seem to get into 'em all. Though I like my bunkers a little on the trashy side, I don't care how pretty, ugly, big or small they are. Especially after I've had a few beers and my obligatory whisky toast.   Once, I was in a bunker so big I couldn't get out. I love them and I'm not ashamed of it.   Someday, I'm going to experiment with fairways.


 ???  ???  ???  ??? I thought it would be the tight bunkers that you couldn't get out of.   ???   ???   ???
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #123 on: June 18, 2009, 04:45:13 PM »
Michael:

But your post was worth more than the other 109 put together -- ..

...must not think much of your own posts which are part of that 109.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best course in Washington State...
« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2009, 07:16:18 PM »
 I just received a few more pictures of Wine Valley today.  

Here's one of the par 5 7th from about 250+ yards away from green.


Photo by Tyler Daniels

« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 07:22:32 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M