[Carl Rogers]

As much as there is a preoccupation with the drivable (for who?) par 4, doesn't the inverse circumstance present a problem too?  Why EXCLUDE the driver option on a hole for anybody?

The 14th hole at MV .... the hole looks terrific, immaculate conditioning, every blade of grass perfectly manicured, perfect bunker maintenance etc etc yet I do not like the playing characteristics of the hole.  The entire field hits the same tee shot and the same wedge approach shot.  If a Bubba W or JB Holmes can knock it 325 yards plus and straight enough, should the design of the hole allow them to do it?

Contrast this hole with the 3rd at ANGC .... what do you think?

[Mark Pritchett]

Jack was asked about the 14th on the Golf Channel yesterday and mentioned he played in a practice round this week with a player, I forget which one, who did hit the green with a driver.  His thought was the tees didn't have to be moved up for most of the field to drive the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

You're not FORCED to lay up, you'd just be stupid to hit driver.  There's a difference.

And, I don't think having a lay-up tee shot on a short par-4 or two is a bad thing at all.  It is one way to reduce the ridiculous distance advantage that long hitters have today.  It's a tremendous imbalance to build short 4's which some people can drive and other people can't -- why not balance that with a hole of the other type?

Crystal Downs has three "lay up" short 4's -- 7, 15 and 17 -- although I watched Ian Baker-Finch hit driver on all three when he was up here 4-5 years ago, and if you are Tour-long it's a good play on all but #7.  (Some of them could hit driver on #7, too, but you've got to fly it 305 there or it's no good.)  I've always thought they were the holes that kept the long hitter from overpowering the more exacting player.  If you design the short par-4's to favor the 300-yard hitter, you are missing the point.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom, not wanting to boast, but this 62 year old body drove the green from the member tees on 17.  I agree it is probably stupid but who knows when I will return there.  It was sure fun.

[Mike McGuire]

Jack said something about options off the tee on 14. Not sure what he meant, everyone seemed to hit an iron in the same place.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom,

At MV no. 14, it is excluded because it is so foolish...

Ok fair enough ... at the 3rd on ANGC, very few pros at the Masters (as is my observation over the years) hit driver.  There is no forced carry.  I guess the half lob wedge bunt is too hard to hit off the irregular fairway to a target that small with so much stimp speed and punishing fall-offs.

But at the 2 courses of yours I am familiar with, the short par 4's do not EXCLUDE driver.

At Riverfront (I recognize the course was designed and built prior to the Pro V1 and the 460 cc driver), you eliminated the very issue I discuss.   The 7th and 17th qualify as the short par 4's that could be driven by somebody (not me).  I have played with a guy who was hole high on 7 once.  He, being that far out of position, struggled to make a 4 to the easiest flagstick location.  No water on 7, but at 17 the wetlands creep in from the right and trees to the left (the tightest driving hole on the course), but no forced carry and no automatic elimination of the driver.   Yes, a little crazy to pull out the big stick there. The 10th hole at Riverfront is drivable from the white tees with room to miss left but not right.

At Beechtree (RIP), the 3rd and 11th have no water or forced carries. At the 3rd, the player needs to read the sloping terrain and aim to the left letting the slope bring it back right.  At the 11th, a very long precise right to left shot is required that dodges all the really deep bunkers (as I remember).  There was no bale out at no. 3 because the hole is straight.  The crooked tee shots on these 2 holes do not carry any greater penalty than the bad tee shot on any other hole at Beechtree.

Penalty for the wayward shot or the preception of such was my complaint at MV no.14.

[BCrosby]

I think JN missed an opportunity at the 14th. It would be a better hole if driving the green wasn't a crazy idea. You make it a non-crazy idea by piping part of the creek that cuts diagonally through the fw.

As it is now, you hit 5w, PW. With no other realistic options.

Bob

[JESII]

I would think the better way to put driver in their hands would be a shift/shrinkage of the first left greenside bunker...away from the creek, making that bailout seem a little more reasnoable.

[BCrosby]

Jim -

I like that idea too. But as it is, I think the 14th is pretty dim. I don't get all the accolades.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

It is amazing to me that the concept of a good drive-and-pitch hole has been rendered moot for some people because they think every hole under 380 yards should be made driveable.  That's what y'all are saying, isn't it?

Other holes that now apparently suck, by this standard:  8th at Merion.  8th at Pine Valley.  17th at Pine Valley.  Discuss.

[Mike Wagner]

Let's be honest here - the short par 4 does NOT need to be driveable to be great.  In fact, it's a trend that is completely misunderstood/expected in today's game. 

What is WRONG with a 325 yard par 4 that can't be reached?  It brings back more of the great core of the game - ecacting wedges, hitting it on the proper side of the hole, punishing/rewarding green contours, etc.

It brings back THOUGHT, nerves, and the ability to MANAGE the game.  The short par is a treasure of the game - it holds all the values of what the game IS - strategy, distance control, steady nerves on short approaches.  Does anything rattle the long hitter more than not executing properly on a hole that, by scorecard standards, be an easy par or birdie? 

[Ben Stephens]

Did anyone watch the Wales Open on the 2010 course at the Celtic Manor? The 15th hole was a dogleg right 377 yards par 4 and the pros were hitting the green in one with a three wood! I reckon that hole was 270 on a direct line to the green and it was playing downwind today.

Tom - Merion's 8th (320 yard carry to front of green) would be pretty darn hard to get on the green due to the large bunker fronting the small fast green surrounded by thick rough. Most top players would rather go in the bunker than the rough and get a sand save. Pine Valley's 8th (300 yd carry to front of green) and 17th (320 yard carry to front of green) are very similar to Merion's 8th - small green fronted by large bunker. The top guys could hit a driver really high up in the air and stop on the green. Not everyone did that in the 2007 US Open at Oakmont's 11th, 14th and 17th and the odd one had a bogey or worse! Muirfield Village's 14th is 330 yards direct line to the front of the green with 275 yards carry out the creek. It would probably easier to hit that green than Merion's 8th and Pine Valley's 8th + 17th

[Ben Sims]

It's high time we understand the need for shorter, more complex holes as a golfing public.  I am very excited to see #8 at Common Ground next weekend for this reason.  Like I've seen Tom mention before, everyone thinks #6 at Pacific Dunes is drivable.  However, it just LOOKS drivable.  That's the beauty of a short par 4 that lets you hit driver or 3 wood, but doesn't quite allow the shot to get to the green.  As far as those mentioned at Saguaro on another thread here on the front page, only 2 of those 4 that are under 350 are actually drivable for 99.9% of golfers.  A triumph by C&C indeed.

On of my personal top 50 golf holes is #9 at Davis Municipal Golf Course in Davis, CA.  It is a straight away, 270 yard par 4 that has an extremely elevated green complex with an Eden-type configuration.  I've seen two or three dozen playing partners hit driver and never get better than par.  I've birdied it many times hitting 6 iron, wedge.  We need more holes like that in golf. 

[Greg Tallman]

What the heck is wrong with a hole that forces the field to hit a similar shot into the green, producing kick ins, unplayable thirds and scores from 3-8?

Isn't this the crowd enamored with holes that force shotmaking versus the bomb and gouge method? What hole better exemplifies this?

I did not see wll the play on this hole today but did see only one well played 9-iron or wedge (Jim Furyk) while a ton of strange results and even a cowardly turned brilliant birdie by DLIII. What did Ogilvy make a 8, a 5 shot difference in back to back groups of players in contention, what more do you want from a golf hole? Gracious... seems like a great 350ish yard golf hole to me.

And to think I was almost silly enough to put 11-14 or 12-15 at MVGC in the 4 great consecutive holes discussion.... whew, glad I came to my senses. Wonder what page that discussion is on anyway...

[derrickp]

I don't have a problem with these types of holes except one type in particular. The 13th hole at Pine Valley.......in Southington CT, you have to hit your drive shorter than your second shot. It is a 90 degree dogleg right with water and trees on the right, no chance to cut the corner. The max you can hit your tee shot is about 180 yards which leaves you around 200 yards left to the green. I think that is a little Mickey Mouse and funny enough it is the #1 handicap hole.

[Michael Blake]

what Greg said!

Faldo and Jack were sure yapping it up today on how great a hole it is.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom,

I just believe, feel and think that any shot at any time on the course should be open to possiblity of using any of the 14 clubs by any player of any ability. 

My problem with the 14th at MV is the creek down the left (as viewing from the tee).

I think JN missed an opportunity at the 14th. It would be a better hole if driving the green wasn't a crazy idea. You make it a non-crazy idea by piping part of the creek that cuts diagonally through the fw.

As it is now, you hit 5w, PW. With no other realistic options.

Bob

Other holes that now apparently suck, by this standard:  8th at Merion.  8th at Pine Valley.  17th at Pine Valley.  Discuss.

I did not say those holes sucked.  I am sure that my life will be less for never having the opportunity to play them.  Weren't those holes you mention created back in the day when a 240 yard drive was about the maximum and thus never considered drivable?

The 10th hole at Rivieria seems to get nearly universal accolades ... no forced carry over water.  You can use a driver, or maybe a pair of 8 irons.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben Stephens:  Anybody who would hit a driver on the 8th hole at Pine Valley thinking they might hold the green, should be committed to an asylum.

[Stan Dodd]

Ben Sims,
I played with two of my high school golfers who did drive 6 at Pacific Dunes.  It is driveable with the right wind and shot shape and youth, this old guy doesn't come close.
# 9 at Davis Puny yields a wide variety of scores.  I have seen two to 8 playing in the Davis City.  Fun hole that does what Tom says about evening the playing field a bit.
What about # 3 ( I think ) at Wildhorse in Davis?  I have made 2- X on  that hole.

[Ben Sims]

Stan,

Awesome experiences dude!  I am surprised to hear about Pac Dunes #6 and I would expect that to be in a winter prevailing wind.  Believe though, that's not a "drivable" par 4.  The green just doesn't allow for it.  Your high school buddies, IMHO, experienced a collection of variables that made the hole drivable, but I don't think it was designed that way.  Methinks Renaissance designed it to tempt you into the driver, not allow for it.  There's a distinction in my opinion.

Spot on at Davis Puny, #9 allows for a huge variety of scores.  As for Mr. Brauer's Wildhorse in Davis, I think you refer to #2.  Of course 10 and 11 represent two more in that 300-350 range.  The superintendent started ending the fairway just beyond the left bunker on 2 to possibly force the golfers hand, speed up play to keep people from ripping driver straight into the lake, etc.  Bad move.  Either way, I still thought 10 was the better of the trio of drivable two shotters at Wildhorse.

[Kenny Baer]

I think the 14th at MV is the best hole on a very good golf course ; to make a 350yd hole that plays over par without being silly is a pretty neat concept; there are also tons of options on that hole in regards to how far you want to lay back; about the only thing that is not an option is driver.  I would bet the pros hit every club from 3 wood to 6 iron off of that tee this week. 

[Bill_McBride]

I think JN missed an opportunity at the 14th. It would be a better hole if driving the green wasn't a crazy idea. You make it a non-crazy idea by piping part of the creek that cuts diagonally through the fw.

As it is now, you hit 5w, PW. With no other realistic options.

Bob

Bob, I think the option yesterday was 3-iron 9-iron. 

[Mike Hendren]

But not for these holes, today's professional would not be called upon to execute a meaningful long iron shot.

[Sean_A]

I don't understand what is wrong with a short two-shotter offering the obvious choice of a layup.  One, maybe two in a game, especially if the course has three or four drivable par 4s, is alright.  It probably won't win any awards, but a varied course is its own reward.

Ciao

[Lester George]

Too busy to type an answer......BUT

Everybody READ Mike Wagner's answer.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Lester

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