News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« on: June 06, 2009, 11:05:01 AM »
Is it because the first few holes are so bland?

Is it because the it was closed for so long after WWII?

I have played it several times over a few years (though have not seen it since Fazio's rework) and thought it was one of very special places/courses in golf.  It doesn't seem to even get mentioned in the same sentence as Ballybunion, Lahinch, even Tralee.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 11:54:12 AM »
1.  Lack of short game interest because they bulldozed the contours around the greens.
2.  Generally too long in the wind.
3.  No real history.

Still, it's respected much more than Tralee, except for the many people who consider Palmer's name attachment a plus.  Tralee figures on as many American itineraries because it's a lot closer to Ballybunion and Lahinch than Waterville is.

Ron Csigo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 12:35:01 PM »
It is roughly a 2 hour ride to Waterville from Killarney via the Ring of Kerry versus a 45 minute ride to Tralee.  So, Tralee is far more convenient on an American golf itinerary.  Plus, I don't think there a many other courses in close proximity to Waterville that make it appealing to make the pilgrimage.  But, I agree with Tom.  It is a much more respected course than Tralee.  IMHO, I would rank it behind RCD, Portrush, Ballybunion, Portmarnock and Lahinch but ahead of the European Club, Old Head, and Druids Glen.
Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 02:08:01 PM »
Waterville has few elevation changes to speak of-certainly not in the class of Tralee or Ballybunion. In addition to the flattish property, I can't think of another course in Ireland that gets as  pummeled with very high winds- For my money, Dooks is a nice addition if staying in Killarney,sporty course and a simple drive.           Jack 

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 02:38:38 PM »
Unless it has changed after the renovation, Waterville does not play fast or firm.  I think they planted the wrong grass.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Rich Goodale

Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2009, 10:15:15 AM »
Tommy

Prior to Fazio's fairly recent work I don't think that any grass was planted.  After all, it was "built" by Eddie Hackett, and he was as minimalist as they come.

I personally think that any lack of respect comes from:

1.  Being tainted by the Fazio brush (even though what he did was probably an improvement)
2.  Being both remote and posh (we tend to like our remote courses rough and ready)
3.  The fact that regardless of what Fazio did, the first 9 holes are on fairly boring (and, Tommy, a bit boggy) land.
4.  Whilst the last 9 holes in the dunes have some great moments, they are still inferior to the best holes at Irleand's top 5 (Portmarnock, Newcastle, Portrush, Ballybunion, and Lahinch).

Rich

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2009, 10:26:27 AM »
Rich - I think you've hit the nail on the head. I would only add the one time I played this course, I liked it more than Tralee, which I found a little tricked out for my taste.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2009, 11:31:53 AM »
I agree that Tralee gets even less respect, maybe unfairly so.

I've only been to Waterville once, and I found it a bit less playable than many of the Irish favorites.

Also, they have a much-maligned par 3 on the front nine that is about 150, and has a marshy pond fronting the green.

Is that hole still there?
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Rich Goodale

Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2009, 11:46:19 AM »
Brad

The pond hole is gone.  You can use the pool.....

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2009, 12:12:48 PM »
Also, they have a much-maligned par 3 on the front nine that is about 150, and has a marshy pond fronting the green.

Is that hole still there?


Brad,

The hole you speak of (below) has been replaced by the hole below it when Mr Fazio did the redesign.





Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 12:16:15 PM »
I was there a year ago after the Fazio changes. Hole 6 (or 7?) Par 3 still has a pond. I absolutely loved the course even though indeed it lacks subtle mounding around the greens it still had plenty of chipping areas creating short game interest, maybe it could have been even better. Holes 2,3,4 may not have a lot of elevation, but to me were among the best on the course but then again I do not think Not alot of elevation means a hole is bland.

The course played fast and firm, although not to the degree of nearby Dooks; indeed the grass seems different to that on the old links courses, can anybody in the know shed a light on the difference?

It was clear that not all the changes had fully grown in. Some area's showed recent fescue grass planting, which seems out of place on a links course where plenty of fescue should be growing naturally in the rough anyway. On some holes one would feel like walking an Arizona desert course trying to emulate a links look, but fortunately the temperature was 20 degrees lower, so one couldn't be fooled, this in spite of the flashy white bunker sand that seems out of place also; links courses should have yellow or light brown sand bunkers.

Since the site is pure linksland, I think the natural grasses will probably dominate the course in the near future off and maybe also on the fairways improving the course further, especially if they also get the bunker sand right. Hole 11 and the final four holes are as good as on any links in the British Isles, so the course will soon deserve in my opinion to be mentioned alongside the great classics. Is it worthwhile to visit now already? In my view yes, absolutely!

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 12:29:43 PM »
Plus, I don't think there a many other courses in close proximity to Waterville that make it appealing to make the pilgrimage.

Ron,

Dooks is only 40 minutes away and Skellig Bay (sporty and fun) while not commanding the same pedigree as Waterville is a mere 5 minutes the other side of town.

Christian,

I believe Mr Fazio made his changes in two phases. Maybe you were there in between.










Shane Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 01:43:04 PM »
Chip - Thanks so much for bringing up this topic.  I have been there the past two summers and can confirm that it does play firm and fast.  If this course had been a re-do by another architect besides Fazio, I think it would get more recognition than it does.  I personally think it has just about everything besides severe green contours......but then again, Carnoustie has almost none. 

The variety of holes, IMHO, are about as good as any of the courses in Ireland.  In fact, when I played it this past summer, two of the guys in my group questioned whether they liked it as much as RCD and Portrush (but hadn't seen Ballybunion yet).  The views are about as good as anything in Ireland, save RCD.  The course is really long from the backs, but how many 0-3 handicappers are playing the course.....play the appropriate tees. 

There is one U.S. poster on here who mentioned joining a certain club in Ireland after introducing his son to the game.  Waterville would be this course for me.  I think it is a magical place and a course I could play every single day.  Although RCD and Balllybunion are my favorites in Ireland, I think Waterville would be more enjoyable to play regularly. 

.......and for the life of me, I don't understand.........I know I am 1/5 of 1% of the sentiment here....but IMHO, Portmarnock can't hold Waterville's jock strap.   



Rich Goodale

Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 02:02:52 PM »
Christian

I do not think that your comment on bunker sand colors on links courses is correct.  In my 30+ year experience on links I can't remember any brown or even yellow sand.  Most if not all bunker sand on such courses that I remember and still play is white or at worst off-shitge in color.  Do you have any pictures which can show me that I am wrong?

Shane

There is quite a bit of contour on a number of greens at Carnoustie.  3, 5, 8, 11, 12 and 15 come immediately to mind.

Rich

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009, 04:55:35 PM »
 I think that the 360 degree views affect people's perception of the course too favorably. While I haven't been there since 1998 I found it underwhelming. The begiining was a putoff . Even "Tranquility" pales in comparison to the other great courses' most famous holes.
AKA Mayday

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2009, 05:40:42 PM »
Christian

I do not think that your comment on bunker sand colors on links courses is correct.  In my 30+ year experience on links I can't remember any brown or even yellow sand.  Most if not all bunker sand on such courses that I remember and still play is white or at worst off-shitge in color.  Do you have any pictures which can show me that I am wrong?

Shane

There is quite a bit of contour on a number of greens at Carnoustie.  3, 5, 8, 11, 12 and 15 come immediately to mind.

Rich

Yellow or Brown is maybe exaggerated, but a bunker on links course should not shine in your eyes as if it were Valderrama. That's what I meant.

I like them this colour:

Is that off-shitge? I'm not familiar with off-shitge... is it like beige?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 05:49:40 PM by Cristian Willaert »

Anthony Gray

Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2009, 05:51:06 PM »


  Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?



















   It's not MERION.


Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2009, 05:52:18 PM »
Christian,

Attached below is a pic of the bunkers on the 18th. To be honest I never noticed any unusual coloring in the bunkers. Maybe your eyes were extra sensitive due to the intake of Guniness. It has been known to effect foreigners adversely. Please don't take umbrage, all in jest.

Aidan.



Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2009, 05:56:17 PM »
Christian,

Attached below is a pic of the bunkers on the 18th. To be honest I never noticed any unusual coloring in the bunkers. Maybe your eyes were extra sensitive due to the intake of Guniness. It has been known to effect foreigners adversely. Please don't take umbrage, all in jest.

Aidan.




I am not going to get away with this unless I produce a foto proving my point from last time I was there. Since I can't I will just promise not to drink too much of the brown or off-shitge stuff while I am over there....

nice picture by the way...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 05:58:19 PM by Cristian Willaert »

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2009, 06:00:01 PM »
What is "off-shitge stuff"?

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2009, 06:02:53 PM »
What is "off-shitge stuff"?

I don't know what off-shitge is....... :)


Rich Goodale

Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2009, 06:07:15 PM »
What is "off-shitge stuff"?

I don't know what off-shitge is....... :)



Ngeithewr do I. :o

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2009, 06:07:44 PM »
Did you mean this lovely stuff, nectar of the God's.....



Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2009, 06:09:59 PM »
Did you mean this lovely stuff, nectar of the God's.....




pleased to make your acquintance Aidan...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Waterville get more respect?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 06:19:14 PM »
Chip

Given there are several top notch courses in Ireland and handful of others that are just as good if people ditched their stupid ideas about shot values/championship test, just how much respect do you think Waterville deserves?  I have always been of the opinion that Waterville gets too much respect, just as TEC does, but I think that about nearly all the "top tier/championship" courses.

Ciao 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 06:28:22 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing