[Michael Robin]

Been studying Eden holes of late and it made me realize that the great 6th at Riviera is actually Thomas' spin on the Eden. If you take the bunker in the middle of the green and pull it straight forward to the front of the green, you now have the Strath bunker. The left side surrogate Hill bunker is already in place.

The green left of the centered bunker is a nod to the Eden with the steep slope back to front, while right of the bunker is another of his little template spins, a punchbowl.

I've been lazy and haven't researched whether Thomas discussed this, or if this is in Shack's book, or if there is a previous thread, but given GT's other template ideas at Riviera like the Biarritz on a diagonal on the par 4 15th, the Channel hole reduced to a par 4 at the 8th, the centerline hazard on his 240yd Redan 4th, the Cape 13th, this seems quite in line with those template inspirations.

Thoughts?

[Ryan Farrow]

I'm on board. It would explain that beautiful bunker that is always used to showcase what the bunkers used to look like at Riviera. Hello Shell Bunker! It makes sense, as said bunker is pretty pointless otherwise. I'll be stopping by NGLA in a few weeks, Ill comment more after I actually see another Eden hole. 

[BCrosby]

Interesting, Michael. I remember reading in a dusty tome that the Strath Bunker at one time extended into the green.

MacK did similar over the top things at ANGC. Some of his original design features there were almost satires of classic features at TOC and other links courses. It was wild stuff. The irony of some of it escaped most everyone. I suspect Thomas was also enjoying a bit of an inside joke at the 6th.

Bob   

[George_Bahto]

BCrosby: here is part of an article written by MacK

From the Mackenzie article about Augusta National

No.13  160 yards, Championship 170
   This hole is very similar to the famous eleventh (Eden) at St. Andrews. There have been scores of attempted copies of this famous hole, but there is none that has the charming thrill of the original. Most copies are failures because of the absence of the subtle and severe slopes which create the excitement of the original hole, and also because the turf is usually so soft that any kind of sloppy pitch will stop. Previous failures, followed by, comparatively speaking, increasing successes may have given us sufficient experience to warrant us in hoping that here at last we may construct a hole that will compare favorably with the original.

[BCrosby]

Thanks George.

One of my biggest disappointemnts with NGLA is the Eden Hole. It struck me as a pale imitation of the original. It might have been what MacK was referring to when he says:

"Most copies are failures because of the absence of the subtle and severe slopes which create the excitement of the original hole,.."

Thomas figured out another way to get that excitment in the hole. Mack did too at the original 4th at ANGC.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks George.

One of my biggest disappointemnts with NGLA is the Eden Hole. It struck me as a pale imitation of the original. It might have been what MacK was referring to when he says:

"Most copies are failures because of the absence of the subtle and severe slopes which create the excitement of the original hole,.."

Thomas figured out another way to get that excitment in the hole. Mack did too at the original 4th at ANGC.

Bob

I'm with you, Bob, I thought the bunkers were out of place at #13 NGLA and I thought the green was way too flat.  If you're going to copy the Eden, copy it, but I've never seen one that came close and that includes Yale, the Creek and Mountain Lake.  Chicago was pretty good in terms of the slope.  I got in the Strath last time at St Andrews and that is a frightening experience.  To say the least.

[Tim Bert]

Having just played Yale last weekend, I will echo Bill's sentiments on the Eden there.  Granted, I've never played the original, but the version at Yale leaves me feeling a bit flat.  Yale is one of my favorite courses anywhere, and almost every hole is outstanding in my opinion.  That being said, if the Eden there is representative of the one at TOC, then I'd find myself thinking "What's all the fuss about?"

High hopes for Eden at Old Mac.

[Chip Gaskins]

One of the best Eden's I have seen is the NLE Beechtree in Maryland.  Doak did a great version IMO.

[ed_getka]

I'm on board. It would explain that beautiful bunker that is always used to showcase what the bunkers used to look like at Riviera. Hello Shell Bunker! It makes sense, as said bunker is pretty pointless otherwise. I'll be stopping by NGLA in a few weeks, Ill comment more after I actually see another Eden hole. 

Ryan,
   Don't expect too much from the Eden at NGLA as others have pointed out. It is far and away the weakest on the course IMO. Don't worry though, the rest of the course makes up for it in spades.

[Tom_Doak]

The Old Macdonald Eden hole will be a pretty good version of it.  We didn't dare build a bunker as deep as Strath, but otherwise it does it some justice.

Bob Crosby:  I do not think that the Strath was ever in a different place than it is today.  That dusty old tome you read about it was from a day where the "green" was defined as meaning "everything within twenty yards of the hole".  (Check out the drawing of the 8th hole at St. Andrews in Thomas' book and you'll see that the Short Hole bunker is portrayed as being "in" the green ... this is why Thomas did not have a problem with putting a bunker inside the green on the 6th at Riviera.)  Anyway, the Strath is certainly within twenty yards of where they often put the hole on the Eden hole, so by definition back then it "extended into the green" even though it hasn't moved.

[George_Bahto]

NGLA Eden.  We've been trying to figure out for years why that green is relatively mundane - especially given the green speeds of the 19-teens and twenties.

I've often thought the back to front tilt of NGLA's green may have softened by membership after Charles B. lost control of the course and club (1936-1938.

It has always puzzled me why the Edens they built were never that reflective of the original - (the Beast of a green   )

I had discussed this with Tom Doak when the idea of Mr. Keiser building Old Macdonald first came up - he felt as I did that the severity of the Macdonald/SR greens were "mellow" - hoping we could really capture some of the difficulty encountered when playing the original at TOC.

"Big Boss" reminded us about the his retail golfer.

I tried.

[ed_getka]

Been studying Eden holes of late and it made me realize that the great 6th at Riviera is actually Thomas' spin on the Eden. If you take the bunker in the middle of the green and pull it straight forward to the front of the green, you now have the Strath bunker. The left side surrogate Hill bunker is already in place.

The green left of the centered bunker is a nod to the Eden with the steep slope back to front, while right of the bunker is another of his little template spins, a punchbowl.

I've been lazy and haven't researched whether Thomas discussed this, or if this is in Shack's book, or if there is a previous thread, but given GT's other template ideas at Riviera like the Biarritz on a diagonal on the par 4 15th, the Channel hole reduced to a par 4 at the 8th, the centerline hazard on his 240yd Redan 4th, this seems quite in line with those template inspirations.

Thoughts?

Michael,
    Interesting thought. I'll have to refer to the book to see the hazard placements again. Having played the original at TOC I haven't seen anything that comes very close yet. On the original Eden the steep upslope into the front of the green, combined with the shallow green and death long, and the pronounced back to front tilt makes the original hard to replicate without hearing howls of protest from most golfers. There is simply no bailout on the Eden that makes for an easy bogey, which most replicas fall short of. I think mostly this has to do with the average golfer's perception of fairness.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Mike Robin I think you are on to something on the 6th at Riv.  One of my, and Geoff's, disappointments is the latest redo of the 6th green(not sure the date I think it was Ron Forse) the front middle between the bunkers they made it a tiered area.  I think it should be flatter to allow more hole placements.  The most challenging hole location visually to me is the front middle.  It is seldom used.
One more thought on the 6th.  In Geoff's history book I have always remembered Ron Whitten's description of the green.  "Even without the bunker in the middle of the green, it would still be a great green complex."
In truth the bunker in the green enhances the front middle hole placement.

Folks keep in mind Mike is not saying it is an Eden, but Thomas' interpretation of an Eden concept.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

Apparently you have no idea how severe the greens at Old Macdonald are going to be when they get fast and the wind is blowing.  Especially the Eden in the summer wind, which I guess, to be fair, you haven't really seen.  It's not as steep as St. Andrews' (because we have to have some hole locations) but it is going to be nasty.

[Niall C]

Tom

How fast are the greens going to be in comparison to TOC ? Is Old Mac in a windier location than TOC ?

Niall

[Michael Robin]

The 2nd at Old Macdonald is going to be a "Beast." Very exacting shot with likely a long iron into a similar wind that prevails at the 11th at TOC. Haven't been to TOC(next month ), but if Old Mac's green contours are tame compared to the original, then I'm already afraid. The slope and movement at OM's Eden are frightening on their own. Also, love the setting of the hole. It looks quite regal as you walk off the Double Plateau first green. Actually, I would say it looks confident and even smug as its challenges await you, like it knows it's going to win.

[George_Bahto]

It’s Not Easy Getting Old!!   (the title of this post)

Tom Doak has explained to me any number of times lately and not so lately, (privately and publicly) about the wind factor vs slope on the Eden at Old Macdonald - the 2nd hole and its having a hard time sinking into to my 79-year-old noggin .....

I keep seeing this hole and thinking about it in a “non-wind” situation - duh - I guess because I’ve always wanted to see on built with similar problems as 11-TOC and also the fact that Mac/Raynor/Banks never got there.

I’ve been on the green many time on the various trip there and I guess I keep hoping for some outrageous tilt - not to be - nor not needed.

Tom, sorry - I’m finally getting it ............. ..... got it!

[Mike_Cirba]

The eden at Fishers Island is a good one.

Smyers built a cool one at Blue Heron Pines in NJ but I'm not sure if there's a house atop it these days.

[ed_getka]

The 2nd at Old Macdonald is going to be a "Beast." Very exacting shot with likely a long iron into a similar wind that prevails at the 11th at TOC. Haven't been to TOC(next month ), but if Old Mac's green contours are tame compared to the original, then I'm already afraid. The slope and movement at OM's Eden are frightening on their own. Also, love the setting of the hole. It looks quite regal as you walk off the Double Plateau first green. Actually, I would say it looks confident and even smug as its challenges await you, like it knows it's going to win.

Michael,
   Have a great time on your maiden voyage to TOC. Any plans to get to North Berwick? Seeing the original Eden and Redan is a required experience.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Here is a picture of the sixth at Riveria just to show people

[JC Urbina]

Michael

Don't want to hijack the topic, if Thomas was thinking of the Eden and the importance of the Strath.  Did Raynor and Thomas understand the importance of the location of the Strath?  or was it the inspiration and not the duplication that was important?

[Chip Gaskins]

Guys-

That picture of Riveria has no resemblance of perception or strategy to the real Eden  in my opinion. 

[Ben Sims]

Chip,

Not sure I agree with you.  I have never been to TOC, but I surmise from many pictures and watching a few Open Championships that it's not common to have the pin directly behind Strath bunker.  Meaning that, if the primary pin locations are left and right of the Strath, whether in the green or in front of the green, it still plays like an Eden hole.  This is of course the primary pin locations for this particular hole at Riviera.  This leads me to believe that it is not a perfect copy of the Eden at TOC, but a Thomas version that retains the tacttical shot values of an Eden.  Albeit with Thomas' unique spin on the theme.

For further observation I'll have to study both holes.  Which looks to be remedied in the near future thanks to a generous member

[Kye Goalby]

Michael

Don't want to hijack the topic, if Thomas was thinking of the Eden and the importance of the Strath.  Did Raynor and Thomas understand the importance of the location of the Strath?  or was it the inspiration and not the duplication that was important?

Jim,

I dont know about Thomas or Raynor, but I dont think I understand the importance of the location of the Strath bunker. Could you explain it?

Thanks.

[Michael Robin]

Some clarification. As Lynn so graciously said, my point is not that Thomas tried to make the 6th a replica of the Eden, rather that he took many of its principles and then did his own thing with it. He took the greatest par 3 of his time as inspiration and then spun it into another of the world's great par 3s. He did this kind of thing all over Riviera: A Biarritz green flipped and put on a diagonal and used on a par 4; created a Channel hole from the natural Barranca running thru the course, but reduced it to a par 4; created a hint of an Alps to guard the green at 5; extended the left side hazard all the way to the canted fairway and added significant length to the Redan 4th.

I've played the 6th hole probably 1000 plus times and it never occurred to me that Eden was probably at the heart of the design concept for the hole. I was really just blown away at Thomas' genius yet again and wanted to share this epiphany with others to see if it held water.

Ed - Heading to NB just after St. Andrews. Can't wait!

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