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Gib_Papazian

Lake Course Missive
« on: June 04, 2009, 03:37:57 PM »
Gentlemen,

I've thought through the entire Lake Course mess thoroughly and am not done sniveling because there is simply no explanation to account for how poorly this reflects on the club. I understand the mantra that preaches full visibility of the target, but this ethos is peculiar to the Rees Jones notion that blindness is a defect and the goal of the architect is to present as antiseptic and objective an examination as possible.

Due to terrain and bunkering, the Lake Course has historically included blind approaches on #2,4,8,13,15,17 and 18. What can possibly be the point of (a.) repositioning the 7th green only 30 feet, slightly into the previous 8th fairway, and (b.) raping the flow of the existing terrain to achieve a semi-clear clear target from the new 8th tee?

The whole thing (I looked again yesterday) comes off as a series of disparate elements that taken individually are reasonably well executed, but enjoined together the effect is an awkward, segmented collection of features force-fed together. That this new work appears right behind the grill room windows draws attention to what can only be described as a blunder. The club and Bill Love obviously could not muster up the courage to do something controversial like a punchbowl green on the far side of the ridge, nor move the 7th green farther back and design a challenging putting surface to make the pitch shot extra-demanding.

The argument has been made that the original Lake Course does not have any undulating putting surfaces, yet a close examination of #1 shows that perspective holds little water. It is certainly the most interesting green on the golf course and demonstrates how a large putting surface can be configured in a manner as to create a different shot demand with every move of the pin. If #7 had been moved back 40 yards and the green designed to be closer to - for instance - #6 at NGLA, the green-to-tee walk would be alleviated and the shot value more in line with the triple tiered green built circa 1973.

I am still not sure how I felt about the three tiers; they were nowhere as hideous when compared to those putrid "grass traps" inflicted on the right side of the fairway after the tree fell down. However, none of it was original, so I see no reason why we ought not to have brought in a daring artist to sprinkle some pizazz out there. We needed Van Gough and instead hired a very good house painter.

The elevated tees on #8 grow more revolting every time I look at them. There is no earthly explanation for not simply using the existing topography and constructing an appropriate (read: simple) tee adjacent to the basin - thereby parroting a longer uphill version of what we had before.

Joel has uncovered some truths regarding the original putting surface contours (almost like a mini-Biarritz) that if restored would have been smashingly sexy. Yet, once again, cowardice carried the day and we are stuck with a lengthy walk - culminating in a trudge up a steep slope - to an overly long par-3 with little charm or elegance.

I refuse to subject myself to a pointless backwards trek with a five-wood and pledge to play the white tees on that hole unless forced otherwise in a tournament. That can be my protest at the club's misguided attempt at imposing classless machismo on a hole that once tested nerve and skill instead of brute exertion.

To make this development all the more egregious, the puppet-masters opted to maintain the canard that the "golf course has only one fairway bunker." This assumes that the twin traps forty yards in front of the putting surface on #1 somehow are greenside. The numerous original fairway bunkers obviously disappeared because of maintenance costs during times of economic crises. The landforms are still sitting there, but the puppet-masters chose to ignore shrieks from the grave and pretend there are no bodies of past glory buried under tufts of scraggly poa.

If you are going to close the golf course for seven months, it is best to dress her up before making an entrance on the red carpet. 

My final suggestion/gripe would enhance the overall experience for bombers who play from the insanity tees. Let's take the walk to the very back tee boxes between #1-2, 2-3, 4-5 and 11-12. The installation of winding walking paths through the foliage would provide some visceral intimacy and sense of anticipation for the next hole. Think of the walk between #15 and 16 at Cypress Point. Close your eyes and make your way through a tunnel of brush and native plants behind the first green, eventually making your way to the new tee box.

Can you smell the greenery? Now continue along the dirt path as it finally turns right adjacent to the tee. You emerge from an enclosed English Garden sensation to a panoramic hillside view of the expanse of fairway and grassy dunes tumbling down the leeward side of the hill. Look to your right up the fairway and see the 2nd green in the far distance, the landing area blocked by a rise of the ground. You must swing away and trust what you cannot see. If only we had the vision to shave the right side of the fairway to introduce a bank shot.

Now, repeat something similar on the other examples, particularly between #4 and 5 . . . . . . . suddenly the long backwards march becomes a pleasant commune with nature instead of a monotonous hike against the grain of the topography.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 02:29:22 PM by Gib Papazian »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2009, 11:31:23 PM »
I remember the new elevated tee, not in use at that time, which is apparently the new tee for #8 that you could see when I played with Mr Benham, Mr Pieracci and Mr Reilly a couple of years ago.  It looked a lot like the new 4th tee at Oakmont.  Completely out of place and character and signifying nothing.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2009, 12:37:58 AM »
Gib, Great to read your prose once again. Sorry about the content. Cal Club 10 & 8
Say hello to mother nature for me.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 08:02:31 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2009, 11:58:30 AM »
The whole thing (I looked again yesterday) comes off as a series of disparate elements that taken individually are reasonably well executed, but enjoined together the effect is an awkward, segmented collection of features force-fed together. That this new work appears right behind the grill room windows only draws attention to what can only be described as a blunder. The club and Bill Love obviously could not muster up the courage to do something controversial like a punchbowl green on the far side of the ridge, nor move the 7th green farther back and design a challenging putting surface to make the pitch shot extra-demanding.

Gib:  Well said. 

Pat Finlen, GCS. has no interest in making anything remotely interesting on the golf course except perfectly green bowling alley conditions with perfect white bunkers.  He has followed RT Jones Sr. and Fleming to strip out every classical design element on the course.   Walk off tees, replaced with tiers and tiers of tees.  Rough edge bunkers replaced with oval and circle bunkers.  The lack of courage to replace the filled in bunkers placed by Whiting.  Mounding surrounding the bunkers.  Squared off greens.  Rough lines that make no sense.  The biarittz green on #8, etc, etc. The course looks like a modern Rees Jones resort course.

I know many at the club especially Finlen can not understand why the course has fallen in all of the golf course rankings.  Golf Digest has it going from #10, to #16, to #21, to #23 and this year to #26.   Hard to believe that the club was once ranked with the greatest courses in the world, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Oakmont and has now fallen so low that it ranks fractionally above Black Rock which is #27.  If all three magazines are a benchmark for how well Olympic is doing then it ranks worst of the upper crust clubs.

I have a lot of issues with Bill Love but in hindsight, he is not to blame.  Bill Love needs a $ check and does exactly what he is told.  Maybe Bill needs to take a class in ethics, but so does Tom Fazio.  Bill Love does not have the experience or the mental capacity to work at Olympic but Finlen knew it which is why he eliminated the original architects who were chosen by the green chairman and green committee.

The club might be able to fix #7 and #8 by June 2012 but they can't fix the dishevelled collection of holes which now resides.
 

 

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2009, 02:23:14 PM »
Lame news.

Another epic post by Gib, though. 

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2009, 02:59:01 PM »
Joel-

I have not seen the new holes yet, but certainly did like the old ones.  One sentence in your last post struck me...

"Olympic but Finlen knew it which is why he eliminated the original architects who were chosen by the green chairman and green committee."

How can that be?  Seriously, does the Super have more power than the members, green chairman, and the green committee and can unilaterally go against the wishes of the very committee put in place to make these type of decisions?  Is there something I am missing?


Thanks
Chip

George_Williams

Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2009, 04:17:52 PM »
Joel-

What you say makes a lot of sense, but, in the interest of full disclosure, who were the "original" architects chosen by the green chairman & committee?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 04:50:13 PM »
How can that be?  Seriously, does the Super have more power than the members, green chairman, and the green committee and can unilaterally go against the wishes of the very committee put in place to make these type of decisions?  Is there something I am missing?

He does.  I've had a number of supers ask me about this and Finlen is very low key about it.  I've said it here many times, Olympic has a governance problem with a new President every year and several new board members.  The green committee also has turn over and a new chairman every few years as well.   So a new person comes on a committee or board and Finlen says we are rebuilding the bunkers and nobody asks any questions.  Its a situation he takes advantage of. 

The other thing that is unique at Olympic which I complained about to the last 5 presidents is the budget for the green committee is a secret and not disclosed to the green committee or chairman.   It might be the only private club in the country that a non-member superintendent controls his own budget.  As a result the green committee and chairman are completely blind. 

Gib_Papazian

Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 08:35:02 PM »
What this comes down to is a simple difference of opinion. Unfortunately, history teaches us that when a small group of social climbing, power-mad know-nothing's wrest control of the club for the sake of proving their penis wields more semen than the Beta-plus males, one of two things happen:

#1. The Alpha male and his group (or members adept at performing fellacio at cocktail functions where a club tie is mandatory) come to power, actually *do* know more than the average ninny and move forward in the best interests of the club. The result are places like Meadow Club, where obstructionistas are moved to the sidelines and the final product is excellent.

#2. The Alpha male turns out to be a misguided pinhead with no agenda - beyond self-aggrandizement - regardless of how incompetent and aesthetically bereft the plans he is pushing forward. Generally, this idiot cannot cogently identify the difference between Maidstone and Spyglass except to observe that one of them is routed along the Pacific Ocean and the other hangs on the eastern wall of America. He is dangerous, arrogant and his greatest fear is that his young girlfriend will notice his comb-over looks like a cadaver - and that he gobbles Viagra in the bathroom before every date. Invariably, this particular species comes equipped with a medical practice, children in boarding schools for congenital under-achievers and an angry ex-wife.

I have very definite opinions on what ought to be done to the Lake Course, but will ruminate and opine later.
     

   
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:56:04 AM by Gib Papazian »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009, 08:42:07 PM »
#2. The Alpha male turns out to be a misguided pinhead with no agenda - beyond self-aggrandizement regardless of how incompetent and aesthetically bereft the plans he is pushing forward. Generally, this idiot cannot cogently identify the difference between Maidstone and Spyglass except to observe that one of them is routed along the Pacific Ocean and the other hangs on the eastern wall of America. He is dangerous, arrogant and his greatest fear is that his young girlfriend will notice out his comb-over looks like a cadaver and that he gobbles Viagra in the bathroom before every date. Invariably, this particular species comes equipped a medical practice, children in private boarding schools for congenital under-achievers and an angry ex-wife.

     

I know this is a serious subject...but I just shot a mouth full of Guinness thru my nostrils while reading the above....sort of reminded me of something I saw at the Dixie Cup two years ago.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2009, 09:46:04 PM »
Don,

That brought tears to my eyes as well...no , not what Gib wrote, but the fact that you were drinking Guinness instead of Miller Chill.....

 :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2009, 11:14:10 PM »
Joe, I was hungry.
Gib, sorry for the hijack...ignore Joe.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2009, 02:06:59 AM »
I remember the new elevated tee, not in use at that time, which is apparently the new tee for #8 that you could see when I played with Mr Benham, Mr Pieracci and Mr Reilly a couple of years ago. 

There was nothing related to the new hole there when we played.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2009, 02:11:51 AM »

Joel has uncovered some truths regarding the original putting surface contours (almost like a mini-Biarritz) that if restored would have been smashingly sexy.

A photo of the "Biarritz" green is in this month's magazine.  I have my doubts about that sort of a green for the old hole, given that it was 125-140 yds, uphill and blind.  Not a typical Biarritz example.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2009, 02:20:41 AM »
My final suggestion/gripe would enhance the overall experience for bombers who play from the insanity tees. Let's take the walk to the very back tee boxes between #1-2, 2-3, 4-5 and 11-12. The installation of winding walking paths through the foliage would provide some visceral intimacy and sense of anticipation for the next hole. Think of the walk between #15 and 16 at Cypress Point. Close your eyes and make your way through a tunnel of brush and native plants behind the first green, eventually making your way to the new tee box.

Can you smell the greenery? Now continue along the dirt path as it finally turns right adjacent to the tee. You emerge from an enclosed English Garden sensation to a panoramic hillside view of the expanse of fairway and grassy dunes tumbling down the leeward side of the hill. Look to your right up the fairway and see the 2nd green in the far distance, the landing area blocked by a rise of the ground. You must swing away and trust what you cannot see. If only we had the vision to shave the right side of the fairway to introduce a bank shot.

Now, repeat something similar on the other examples, particularly between #4 and 5 . . . . . . . suddenly the long backwards march becomes a pleasant commune with nature instead of a monotonous hike against the grain of the topography.

I agree , though I don't see the need for it on the transition between 2 and 3.  Agree with the rough line on #2.  And once again, the area between #7 and #8 needs to be sorted out...it is a mess because of the cart paths.  Like at Pebble, the paths have had a terrible aesthetic effect.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 11:17:15 AM »

And once again, the area between #7 and #8 needs to be sorted out...it is a mess because of the cart paths.  Like at Pebble, the paths have had a terrible aesthetic effect.

The freeway between the 7th green and 8th tee.  Well thought out!


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 11:37:55 AM »
I remember the new elevated tee, not in use at that time, which is apparently the new tee for #8 that you could see when I played with Mr Benham, Mr Pieracci and Mr Reilly a couple of years ago. 

There was nothing related to the new hole there when we played.

What was that big elevated tee off to the right of what I'd guess was the eighth?

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2009, 11:47:12 AM »

And once again, the area between #7 and #8 needs to be sorted out...it is a mess because of the cart paths.  Like at Pebble, the paths have had a terrible aesthetic effect.

The freeway between the 7th green and 8th tee.  Well thought out!



oh my goodness....i can't be seeing that.  WTF!

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2009, 12:22:44 PM »

And once again, the area between #7 and #8 needs to be sorted out...it is a mess because of the cart paths.  Like at Pebble, the paths have had a terrible aesthetic effect.

The freeway between the 7th green and 8th tee.  Well thought out!



oh my goodness....i can't be seeing that.  WTF!

I think this is Bill Love's take on an Ault-Clark template.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2009, 12:25:09 PM »
Gib, a glib and well written piece.  Obviously you had some outstanding English instruction in your elementary and secondary education for we know it could not have come at Figueroa Tech.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2009, 01:15:19 PM »
What was that big elevated tee off to the right of what I'd guess was the eighth?

The 4th tee?  I don't know, but there was nothing from the current 8th around back then.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2009, 05:07:11 PM »

And once again, the area between #7 and #8 needs to be sorted out...it is a mess because of the cart paths.  Like at Pebble, the paths have had a terrible aesthetic effect.
[/quote]

The freeway between the 7th green and 8th tee.  Well thought out!


[/quote]

oh my goodness....i can't be seeing that.  WTF!
[/quote]


Bill Love is the Chairman of the Environmental Committee of the American Society of Golf Course Architects.  So if you evaluate his work in this photo, he bulldozed and then sodded a natural sandy site and paved it with not one but two cart paths.  He did the environment well by adding three staked trees which if they live are planted so close to the cart path the roots should lift the cart path in a matter of years.  Brilliant.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 05:10:03 PM by Joel_Stewart »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2009, 10:35:29 PM »
What was that big elevated tee off to the right of what I'd guess was the eighth?

The 4th tee?  I don't know, but there was nothing from the current 8th around back then.

Kevin, not sure what tee it was, but whoever I was talking to was pretty upset about it.  My recollection is that it stuck out like an elevated sore thumb much in the way that the new back tee at Oakmont's par 5 fourth hole must look.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lake Course Missive
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2009, 11:31:52 PM »

And once again, the area between #7 and #8 needs to be sorted out...it is a mess because of the cart paths.  Like at Pebble, the paths have had a terrible aesthetic effect.

The freeway between the 7th green and 8th tee.  Well thought out!


[/quote]

oh my goodness....i can't be seeing that.  WTF!
[/quote]


Bill Love is the Chairman of the Environmental Committee of the American Society of Golf Course Architects.  So if you evaluate his work in this photo, he bulldozed and then sodded a natural sandy site and paved it with not one but two cart paths.  He did the environment well by adding three staked trees which if they live are planted so close to the cart path the roots should lift the cart path in a matter of years.  Brilliant.
[/quote]

honestly, after the rounds i have played at OC i cant say i remember seeing a cart path....obviously those days are over.

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