Flynn on Design and Construction

[Bradley Anderson]

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1927/2709173.pdf

I found this link today. Very cool Flynn stuff here. GCA readers enjoy.

Some things I found most interesting were Flynns thoughts on green contours:

He was not a fan of attempting to replicate famous greens from abroad. He preferred to use stolons to grass greens. He felt that the contours of greens should be no greater than 1 foot fall or rise per 35 feet. And of greatest interest to me: he recommends channeling the water off in several directions.

[Bradley Anderson]

I also found it very interesting that Flynn espoused a principle of fairway bunker positioning that tied in with the natural terrain of the hole.

This is quite a contrast to the principle of placing fairway bunkering in places that correspond with the distance of ball flight off the tee.

[Kyle Harris]

Odd thing that about the green contouring and slope. I'm almost certain a number of the front slopes on the greens at HVCC are much steeper than that, especially on 10 and 18 - which aren't hole location simpatico.

The fairway bunkering thing is hardly a surprise if you've been on more than one Flynn course. His tee locations seem more tied to the fairway bunkers and green locations than the "ideal" tee location - whatever that even means.

[Tom_Doak]

Bradley:

That latter statement is not quite as black-and-white as you think.

I certainly believe in placing bunkers based on the topography.  But I also route the holes with the topography in mind, and knowing where those good places to build bunkers are going to fall.

[Ben Sims]

Bradley,

Awesome article.  I have found MSU's turf site to be worthy of my bookmark bar.  I probably reference it 5 times a week and it was well worth the $100/yr membership. 

I am on the fence about his views on contour.  Replicating famous greens from abroad--redan being an example--is a way to connect modern golfers with proven shot values.  Certain green characteristics are fun to play and this doesn't diminish no matter who the architect is.  I probably would've never gotten the chance to play a biarritz if not for a modern take on it.  In fact, I can probably name 5-10 different green complexes that I would never have the chance to play if not for modern interpretations.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley:

That latter statement is not quite as black-and-white as you think.

I certainly believe in placing bunkers based on the topography.  But I also route the holes with the topography in mind, and knowing where those good places to build bunkers are going to fall.

Tom,

It is funny that you of all the modern architects would say that because you seem to be the least concerned with pinching the landing areas of the big hitters with bunkering.

[Bradley Anderson]

Odd thing that about the green contouring and slope. I'm almost certain a number of the front slopes on the greens at HVCC are much steeper than that, especially on 10 and 18 - which aren't hole location simpatico.

The fairway bunkering thing is hardly a surprise if you've been on more than one Flynn course. His tee locations seem more tied to the fairway bunkers and green locations than the "ideal" tee location - whatever that even means.

Kyle,

I have only played one set of Flynn greens, and that was on a course he remodeled, so I wasn't sure if they were all his greens or not. But they seemed to be more subtle than other greens of the era. That is to say  they did not all seem to be tilted in to the line of play, like so many of the older greens are.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley,

Awesome article.  I have found MSU's turf site to be worthy of my bookmark bar.  I probably reference it 5 times a week and it was well worth the $100/yr membership. 

I am on the fence about his views on contour.  Replicating famous greens from abroad--redan being an example--is a way to connect modern golfers with proven shot values.  Certain green characteristics are fun to play and this doesn't diminish no matter who the architect is.  I probably would've never gotten the chance to play a biarritz if not for a modern take on it.  In fact, I can probably name 5-10 different green complexes that I would never have the chance to play if not for modern interpretations.

Ben,

I hope you get the chance to play Shoreacres - it has the most amazing Redan. If you are ever in Chicago we can set you up there. But let me say that that hole is not a replicate of the original. I think that may be lost in some of the dialogue here about the great template holes that Raynor built. I shouldn't say this too emphatically, but of the two Raynor Redan holes that I have played, the elevation of the rise that you have to aim at to work the ball to the hole were different. Just judging from photos that I have studied, every Raynor replicate or template had it's own unique nuances.

[Willie_Dow]

Thanks Bradley for finding this treasure of thought on construction.

It goes to Salters and Mel Lucas to see what we can find.

[Bradley Anderson]

Thanks Bradley for finding this treasure of thought on construction.

It goes to Salters and Mel Lucas to see what we can find.

Willie,

I had lunch with Mel in February in New Orleans. He is the smartest man on the planet when it comes to the history of architectural construction. I am a his disciple.   

He and I were on the trade show and he said to me: lets go eat at the certification luncheon, and I said that I didn't have a reservation, and he said something like: I am the Past President of the GCSAA, we can eat wherever we want. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Ben,

I read your quote again and I think what you are saying is the templates, or the concept holes, however you want to say it, provide us with opportunities to play the great shots of golf without necessarily going to where they originated. And I agree with you.

If I built my own golf course, I guess I would probably build a Biarittz (spelling?) hole and probably a Redan hole too, just because of how fun those shots are. Who can deny that there is nothing more fun than seeing the ball perform on it's own after it lands? And those two holes perform that way better than any others that have been conceived since the beginning of golf.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

Simply off the planet stuff as far as a 400 level course in golf course architecture.

Thanks so much for sharing.

[Ben Sims]

Bradley,

In reference to post #10 and your second read of my post, as Marty Feldman said in Young Frankenstein "On the nosy!"