early articles on NGLA

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick - the foundation for the Shinnecock Inn is still there back and left of the tenth tee

Patrick,

Is this where you thought it was?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David/Patrick,

Your issues shouldn't be with me.
It should be with these articles.

No Mike, my issue is with YOU.
You know that these articles are flawed.
You know that the Shinnecock Inn was behind the 9th green, not up on the high hill west of the golf course, so you know that the newspaper accounts are flawed.  And, you know or should know that Macdonald himself stated that they configured the golf course and holes FIRST and acquired the land subsequently.

Patrick, I see you've already completely dismissed them, but they soulnd to me to have way too much detail to be puff pieces. 

Detail ?  Like the details of Wilson's alleged trip to the UK prior to 1912.
Detail ?  LIke the details of the great holes in the UK that Wilson allegedly studied prior to 1912.

Please, stop the B.S.  
You know better and you know the articles conflict with Macdonald's written word.
So, now you're telling us that the articles are to be relied on as fact and Macdonald's own written words are to be rejected as fiction.

You're wasting everyone's time and you're looking dumb doing it.

They outline all of the principals, the who, what where, when, all in great detail, and include direct quotes from Macdonald.

Just like the articles outlining Wilson's trip to the UK and study of the great holes of the UK prior to 1912.

I've decided to let you continue to ramble on and make a greater fool of yourself.
I will no longer respond to your idiotic posts.

David, I hope you'll abstain as well

Seems like very excellent contemporaneous journalism to me.

Perhaps you can dispute the articles and the claims they state instead of faulting me for bringing them to your attention?

Macdonald already did that.

As to the location of the Shinnecock Inn, please familiarize yourself with the property.  George Bahto, TEPaul and others, including myself know the approximate location behind the 9th green, which is next to the 10th tee.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

The January 1907 USGA Bulletin reported;

The ideal American golf course,
about which we have heard so much,
seems now to be an accomplished fact;
that is, the site has been secured by
C. B. Macdonald, the promoter. Two
hundred acres of ground have been
secured for $40,000. The land purchased
is on what is known as Sebonac
Neck, and to the north of Shinnecock
Hills station. It is practically
bounded on three sides by Bull's Head
Bay, Peconic Bay, and Cold Spring
Bay. The holdings of the founders of
the ideal course have not as yet been
settled, as the owners of the property
have given the golfers the privilege
of determining the exact boundaries
of their purchase.

A holding company has been
formed, of which Mr. Macdonald is
president, James A. Stillman is treasurer,
and Robert C. Watson, Jr., is
secretary. Devereux Emmet and
Daniel Chauncey are directors.

The committee to lay out the course
will be Walter J. Travis, C. B. Macdonald,
H. J. Whigham, and D. Emmet.
Something satisfactory ought to
result from a combination which includes
three ex-amateur champions.
The Long Island Railroad Company
is now doubling its track to Southampton,
and will eventually have four
tracks. The)1 have guaranteed to land
golfers on the course in two hours
from Wall Street or Fifth Avenue

[Mike_Cirba]

On the same day, December 15th, 1906, the Chicago Tribune reported, "Contracts were closed today on 200 acres at Shinnecock, L.I....A working committee to lay out the course will be C.B. Macdonald, Walter Travis, H.J. Whigham, and Devereux Emmett...

[Joe Bausch]

Joe Bausch,

In order to assess the authenticity or accuracy of the article you posted, one only needs to read about the location of the "Shinnecock Inn" as reported in the article.

According to the article the Shinnecock Inn was sited on the grounds where the current Sebonack cabins and Clubhouse are located.

However, I believe that the Shinnecock Inn was located on Route 27 directly behind the current 9th green, far removed from the high hill west of the golf course..

Thanks for the info Pat.  Since this article could be in error on the location of the "Shinnecock Inn", I should not believe anything reported in any contemporaneous article on NGLA?  Can you clarify your stance on this topic for me?   

[DMoriarty]

David/Patrick,

Your issues shouldn't be with me.

It should be with these articles.

Mike,  I've no problem with the articles.   They were obviously based on a variety of information which came from different statements that CBM/NGLA made to the membership.   Some of the information is accurate, and some not, but for the most part I understand where the information came from and how to distinguish between the accurate and inaccurate information.

My problem is with you, and that you are not willing or capable of even understanding what these articles say.   

1.  The articles on their face leave no doubt that CBM first routed and planned their course, and then fit their boundaries according to the demands of the course.    This is not reasonably disputable, yet you are apparently playing dumb, trying to create a dispute where none exists.

2.  For the most part, the articles are prospective and predictive, meaning that they are written about events that have not yet happened but will happen IN THE FUTURE.  Yet you treat them as if they are fact, and that things must necessarily have happened the way the articles predicted it would happen.   One blatant example is the way you read the portions taken from the 1904 agreement as if those things really happened years later.  Plans change, and it is foolish to pretend like they don't.

3.  You completely ignore the far superior and reliable sources containing facts, in favor of predictions.  One example is CBM's statement to the membership.  Another is Scotland's gift.   

So Mike, in sum, you misread second hand newspaper articles that are only partially reliable and provide predictions rather than fact, and you ignore superior first hand accounts that actually supply facts.   

As I suggested, read the CBM's Statement, its Appendix, and the Book, and then reread these articles and I am confident that you can figure this out on your own.

Really there is nothing else to talk about.  Doing so is a waste of time.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Baloney. Who do you think you're talking to, a child? Don't pretend you are the 'innocent' party, just asking questions "because".
That's a total load of BS on your part. You know why you started this thread and your motives are as transparent as Madonna's undies.

Tom,
You should not be raising the specter of who is or isn't 'combative'. I can hear the gnashing of your (and Cirba's, Morrisons's, etc.) gears all the way up here in CT. You guys have been all over Moriarty since he wrote his piece and it has been a most ungentlemanly course, citations of which are unnecessary. Even though I can almost hear you guys saying 'but he started it' or 'David is picking on us' I hope that you would all grow up and debate like the knowledgeable persons you are, or could be.


 

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

I remain ready and willing to have a civil discussion about these matters, but such discussion is impossible unless both sides are willing to:

1.  Behave civilly.

2.  Back up heir analysis and claims with verifiable facts.   

Thus far, these guys have shown no willingness or ability on either count.

[TEPaul]

JimK;

I'm frankly sorry to hear you say that. Obviously we don't feel that way and we hoped for a better environment on here. But you wrote what you did and I can read and understand what you say.

I spent the day with Ran Morrissett on Saturday and I didn't even bring it up but eventually he did so let's just see what happens. But I can tell you with a guy like David Moriarty on here who neither I nor a number of people here have even a modicum of respect for anymore in any possible or conceivable quarter, or interest in, stays on this website posting on these threads like he has I have no interest in GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com any longer. Let the place sink to that lowest common denominator if that's the way it was meant to be! So what?

And it's not just Moriarty; there are a few others on here who have actually written books on architects who make statements and offer opinions on here who seem close to brain-dead; so what't the point? Not much! Let them all have their semi-informed forum now, because most to the best of the rest are history on here anyhow.

Thankfully, we all have our choices and that one is mine if he carries on the way he has. If some of the rest of you don't even recognize the total error in his ways then shitcanning this website and the people on it is just fine with me. Who needs them, in our opinions, if they put up with people like Moriarty?

I can always deal with someone like that but if enough people don't seem to recognize what he is and has done the site has no more interest to me as Wayne has said and a number of other good contributors have said who are gone now out of lack of interest or disgust.

If a website like this one once was even remotely believes a guy like now, it really is time to go.

[jkinney]

GENTLEMEN - The esteemed Founders of National, from their lofty and well earned seats in the Golfers' Pantheon, must be shaking their heads sadly at the venom on this thread. Why is it, I suspect they are querying, that the great inspiration given us for National's creation merits dissection and timelines, when to us it seemed like a dream of free association ? Leave us in peace to gaze down on our successors from our busts in the hallway and portraits in the big room. We desire only silence, so that we may hear the seagulls.

[Rich Goodale]

Pat, Jim and Mike

I don't understand the argument about the location of the Inn.  The NY Herald article quotes MacDonald as saying that the Inn will be located:

"...within two to three hundred yards from our first tee."

Given that the nines have been reversed since the course was opened, as as Jim has said (rightly, as I have always understood it) that the Inn was near the 10th tee, the quote from the Herald article must have been reasonably accurate.  Most importantly, this was not a reporter's words but those of MacDonald himself.  Was he wrong about the location of the Inn too, Pat?  ;)

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

GENTLEMEN - The esteemed Founders of National, from their lofty and well earned seats in the Golfers' Pantheon, must be shaking their heads sadly at the venom on this thread. Why is it, I suspect they are querying, that the great inspiration given us for National's creation merits dissection and timelines, when to us it seemed like a dream of free association ? Leave us in peace to gaze down on our successors from our busts in the hallway and portraits in the big room. We desire only silence, so that we may hear the seagulls.

As the great Cantona once said:

"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea".

[Mike_Cirba]

If the golf course was already routed and planned when they bought the 205 acres, why did they spend the next five months planning it?

Quit shooting the messenger.

Answer the question.

You guys say you want to get to the truth, then that's a pretty obvious question, don't you think?

Please stop just protecting your legends when the uncovered facts indicate possibly a different story.   
 
ALL of the news accounts and even the USGA Bulletin were wrong, right?   Misquoted..out of context...not worth wrapping fish.   

THe article is NOT predictive.   They JUST BOUGHT the land, and THEN Macdonald announces a design committee charged with planning the course over the next FIVE MONTHS.   The committee is announced and their task has been assigned.  Fini.

It's black and white.

Why is it ok to questions Merion's origins with all of your ongoing encouragement and cheering from the sidelines for the past five years, yet I can't ask a friggin question based on news articles Joe Bausch found about NGLA??

We have to shut that right down, right, Pat, Jim, David??

Your biases are showing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, Jim and Mike

I don't understand the argument about the location of the Inn.  The NY Herald article quotes MacDonald as saying that the Inn will be located:

"...within two to three hundred yards from our first tee."

Given that the nines have been reversed since the course was opened, as as Jim has said (rightly, as I have always understood it) that the Inn was near the 10th tee, the quote from the Herald article must have been reasonably accurate.  Most importantly, this was not a reporter's words but those of MacDonald himself.  Was he wrong about the location of the Inn too, Pat?  ;)

Rich,

You too are confused.

The 1st tee he references is the current 10th tee, which is adjacent to the current 9th green.

The NY Herald, CBM, Bahto and myself are in harmony.

You and others need a refresher course in geograhy.

Rich

[Mike_Cirba]

A couple of other things I don't understand....

David says the parts of the article that claim Macdonald felt he'd need 110 acres for the course are right out of the original 1904 plan.

However, that's not what the article says.

The article says that they only felt they'd need about 110 acres for the golf course out of the 205 acres purchased which would leave about 100 acres for real estate.

This property wasn't even selected in 1904...how would they know that they were going to buy 205 acres in late 1906 back in 1904?

The article is talking about the present plan, as of the writing.

Also,

David tells us that NGLA first routed the golf course, then bought the property, and uses that theory/example in his Merion essay to suggest that Macdonald did the exact same thing for Merion.

Yet...

David just measured the NGLA golf course at between 150-170 acres.

Jim Kennedy says it's 180 acres.

Why, if the golf course was already routed and planned before they bought it did they buy 205 acres??

Why appoint a committee upon buying the land who are charged with planning an already planned golf course?

Why spend the next five months planning the course and delaying construction when you have investors who are probably chomping at the bit to see this project realized if you already have the routing completed?

Where does it say that Macdonald did a routing prior to buying the land??

The only examples I've seen say they spent a lot of time examining the ground...well, two days on horseback, actually, and that they saw some great natural features they wanted to utilize.  THAT is wholly different than doing a complete routing and then buying the land to fit that routing like a glove.

Are there other accounts I haven't seen?

George Bahto's book mentions that the land was purchased in November 1907, 11 months after these articles.   Could there have been some loose purchase arrangement in December 1906 and then most of the year spent staking out and planning the course and then a finalized purchase in November 1907?  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe Bausch,

In order to assess the authenticity or accuracy of the article you posted, one only needs to read about the location of the "Shinnecock Inn" as reported in the article.

According to the article the Shinnecock Inn was sited on the grounds where the current Sebonack cabins and Clubhouse are located.

However, I believe that the Shinnecock Inn was located on Route 27 directly behind the current 9th green, far removed from the high hill west of the golf course..

Thanks for the info Pat.  Since this article could be in error on the location of the "Shinnecock Inn", I should not believe anything reported in any contemporaneous article on NGLA?

That's your conclusion, not mine.  Can you clarify your stance on this topic for me?   

Sure.

Check your facts BEFORE posting a flawed article and if you post a flawed article, point out the flaw rather than posit that the article tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  To do otherwise is dishonest.

Would you post articles claiming that Wilson sailed to the UK prior to 1912 to study the great courses in the UK and try to pass them off as authentic ?

You know better.
Stop playing games.

[Rich Goodale]

Pat, Jim and Mike

I don't understand the argument about the location of the Inn.  The NY Herald article quotes MacDonald as saying that the Inn will be located:

"...within two to three hundred yards from our first tee."

Given that the nines have been reversed since the course was opened, as as Jim has said (rightly, as I have always understood it) that the Inn was near the 10th tee, the quote from the Herald article must have been reasonably accurate.  Most importantly, this was not a reporter's words but those of MacDonald himself.  Was he wrong about the location of the Inn too, Pat?  ;)

Rich,

You too are confused.

The 1st tee he references is the current 10th tee, which is adjacent to the current 9th green.

The NY Herald, CBM, Bahto and myself are in harmony.

You and others need a refresher course in geograhy.

Rich

Pat

That is exactly what I (and the Herald reporter) said, i.e. the Inn was going to be be today's 10th tee.  You need some new glasses or a refresher course in basic reading skills, or maybe anger management.  It is fruitless to be combative when you have misunderstood what others are saying.

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'm sorry you feel that way.

But, your feelings are your feelings and you have to go by them.

There's a line in the movie, "Midnight Express" when an inmate in the prison answers a question about why some other inmates seem out of sync with the other inmates.  The character basically says, "the bad machines don't know they're bad"

On one hand you chastise David Moriarty and any and all who find elements of interest, facts and truth in his treatise.  On the other hand you asked innumerable questions which David attempted to answser, yet, you refuse to supply Bryan Izatt with the Metes and Bounds he's requested of you. 

Bryan is not a "pal" of David's, he, like many of us is interested in the discussion,  Yet, you have ignored repeated requests to supply information in your possession so that he can complete his work.  That's rude and disengenuous.  And you don't see the hypocrisy ?

Bryan has never participated in name calling, nor has he taken sides.  He, like most of us on GCA.com want to see ALL of the facts and information revealed, not deliberately hidden.

You've clearly stated that you're going to take your football and go home since you don't like and won't tolerate anyone who disagrees with the established positions posited by you and Wayne.

That would seem contrary to the purpose of the "discussion group" section of this website.

You seem to think that everyone has jumped on Moriarty's bandwagon.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I think most are interested in delving into the past to try to ascertain the facts and piece together a more informed history, whatever that may be.

I don't know what the historical record should reflect, but, I think that trying to find out is a worthwhile pursuit.

The facts are what they are and NO ONE should be afraid of them.

You can curse the darkness or light a candle, the choice is yours.

I hope that you'll continue to participate on GCA.com irrespective of the topics being discussed.

Unlike others, I hope you're man enough to invite me to play golf with you in Philly, you're always welcome to dine and play golf with me in Soprano land.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, Jim and Mike

I don't understand the argument about the location of the Inn.  The NY Herald article quotes MacDonald as saying that the Inn will be located:

"...within two to three hundred yards from our first tee."

Given that the nines have been reversed since the course was opened, as as Jim has said (rightly, as I have always understood it) that the Inn was near the 10th tee, the quote from the Herald article must have been reasonably accurate.  Most importantly, this was not a reporter's words but those of MacDonald himself.  Was he wrong about the location of the Inn too, Pat?  ;)

Rich,

You too are confused.

The 1st tee he references is the current 10th tee, which is adjacent to the current 9th green.

The NY Herald, CBM, Bahto and myself are in harmony.

You and others need a refresher course in geograhy.

Pat

That is exactly what I (and the Herald reporter) said, i.e. the Inn was going to be be today's 10th tee. 


Then why would you ask me the following:
"Most importantly, this was not a reporter's words but those of MacDonald himself. 
Was he wrong about the location of the Inn too, Pat? 


You need some new glasses or a refresher course in basic reading skills, or maybe anger management. 
It is fruitless to be combative when you have misunderstood what others are saying.

My reading comprehension skills remain sharp, my vision OK with reading glasses and my temperment.... relaxed
Perhaps your typing skills are suffering.
Shouldn't you have addressed your comments/question to Mike Cirba ?

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

You too are confused.

The 1st tee he references is the current 10th tee, which is adjacent to the current 9th green.
[/color]

I said the exact same thing above.    Feel free to repeat yourself, as is your wont, but please do not try to repeat me.

Rich

PS--I take it you have no argument with the Herald (Oops!) Tribune article which we are dancing about?

rfg

[jkinney]

GENTLEMEN - The esteemed Founders of National, from their lofty and well earned seats in the Golfers' Pantheon, must be shaking their heads sadly at the venom on this thread. Why is it, I suspect they are querying, that the great inspiration given us for National's creation merits dissection and timelines, when to us it seemed like a dream of free association ? Leave us in peace to gaze down on our successors from our busts in the hallway and portraits in the big room. We desire only silence, so that we may hear the seagulls.

As the great Cantona once said:

"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea".

Indeed. But at National the seagulls' cry is one's alarm clock in the morning, well before the first green is mowed.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe Bausch,

In order to assess the authenticity or accuracy of the article you posted, one only needs to read about the location of the "Shinnecock Inn" as reported in the article.

According to the article the Shinnecock Inn was sited on the grounds where the current Sebonack cabins and Clubhouse are located.

However, I believe that the Shinnecock Inn was located on Route 27 directly behind the current 9th green, far removed from the high hill west of the golf course..

Thanks for the info Pat.  Since this article could be in error on the location of the "Shinnecock Inn", I should not believe anything reported in any contemporaneous article on NGLA?

That's your conclusion, not mine.  Can you clarify your stance on this topic for me?   

Sure.

Check your facts BEFORE posting a flawed article and if you post a flawed article, point out the flaw rather than posit that the article tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  To do otherwise is dishonest.

Would you post articles claiming that Wilson sailed to the UK prior to 1912 to study the great courses in the UK and try to pass them off as authentic ?

You know better.
Stop playing games.

Just the messenger here Pat.  I'm not sure at all what "games" you think I'm playing.  I unearth articles and I present them for discussion.

[Mike_Cirba]

Cmon Joe,

As a Philadelphian, albeit transplanted, you've got to be hiding something.

Or worse yet, purposefully spreading misinformation and prpoganda about the origins of NGLA in an effort to divert attention from the real issue here; the attempt of the conspiratorial Philly gang to hide the true story of the creation of Merion from the world.

Or something like that!

In any case Bausch, you know damn well what you're doing and we're onto your little ploy! 

[Mike_Cirba]

And Joe...quit giving us information we don't want to see.

First Philmont and now THIS!

Do you know no bounds of decency man??

[DMoriarty]

The second hand newspaper accounts and all subsequent first hand accounts consistently point out that NGLA planned their course BEFORE they determined the boundaries of the land they would purchase.   

Is anyone still seriously contending otherwise?     

-  If so, then what specifically in the articles supports this contention (please identify the exact language and article, so we can all see what you are talking about.   
- If not, then what exactly is this discussion about? 

Thanks. 

DM