[goldj]

One of the holes on our course, a long yard par 4,  was recently renovated.  A new green was built, recessed in an area where it is totally invisible to practically all golfers playing their second shots.  Only golfers playing down the left side of the hole will be able to see any of the flagstick with their second shots and they will only be able to see the top foot or two. 

Our Green Committee will be meeting soon to discuss whether we should use a flagstick which is normal than customary.

One of our neighboring courses, the Greenwich Country Club, in Connecticut, has extended length flagstick on a couple of its holes.  NLGA, whose Alps holes is one of the great blind holes in golf, does not.

I would be interested in the panel's view on this subject and any examples that it can provide.

Thanks.

[Scott Warren]

The flagstick on the 3rd at Deal is at least 9 or 10 feet tall.
Here is the best example I have, as the golfer descending into the punchbowl gives some scale.

[Carl Johnson]

Obviously, there's no "right" answer.  As a golfer, I've played courses with extended flag sticks, and courses where the shot to the green was blind entirely or depending on where you drove the ball, but would not have been if a extended flag stick had been used.  Off hand, I'd say that at a public or resort course extending the flag stick could speed up play.  At a club course, that's normally less important.  At my club we've had some greens that were so much higher than the fairway you couldn't see the flag stick from a typical drive, but could have if the stick was taller.  So, what to do?  One of us would run up ahead to get a bead on the flag and report back to all others, including opponents.  I'm not certain about that from a rules standpoint, but for day-to-day play, that's what we did.  Personally, if it was my call, I'd say to go with the normal sticks and see what happens.  Maybe it's a good strategic ploy in your case, demanding a shot down the left if you want to see the stick.  If the normal stick tunrs out to be a problem for most golfers, go buy a longer one.  Again, just a personal view.

[Cliff Hamm]

Funny this topic is raised.  On the Glen Erin thread by Phil McDade he mentions that they use 4 foot flagsticks.  I have never played a course where they are that short.  He mentions that they might lead to a change in depth perception.  Seems contrived.  Anyway, while there is certainly no universal standard  I suspect a four foot pin is highly unusual.  If Phil reads this thread I'd be curious to know why Glen Erin decided on 4 foot flagsticks.

[David Kelly]

Annandale in Pasadena uses flags that are about 5 1/2 ' tall if memory serves.  I think they have done this since the Silva renovation.

[C. Squier]

Does the golfer have the ability to see where the pin is on a preceding hole? - Use regular length.

If you can't see the pin anytime before you play the hole, use a longer pin. 

[David Heiser]

Our flagsticks are 8' throughout the course but we do not have any blind approach shots.  I always enjoyed going to a new course and finding a huge flagstick on one of the greens due to poor visibility.  Conkilin Players Club in Binghamton, NY has a par 4 dogleg left on their back nine where the green is atop a steep hill.  The flagstick had to be 10-12' tall.  I liked it enough to snap a picture with it.  Some might find it gimmicky but I found it entertaining and functional.  Maybe the course should have different flagstick lengths throughout to mess with the players depth perception.  We change the cup locations and the tee markers, why not mix it up with the flagsticks as well.  I'm sure the sacred cows at Merion would not like that idea...

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

Has anyone there played the hole yet? I would think this discussion would be more fitting after multiple plays to experience the design intent and learn the nuances of the landforms leading into the green. One of the goals was to ask the golfer to learn the hole and play by experience rather than have it be another hole with total visual feedback. There are several opportunities to see the flag location before getting to the landing area.

It's important to note that the preceding hole is a short, totally in view short(almost drivable) par 4. The hole in question is a long par 4, and the next hole is a totally in view par 5.

Hope you're well,

Joe

[Phil McDade]

Funny this topic is raised.  On the Glen Erin thread by Phil McDade he mentions that they use 4 foot flagsticks.  I have never played a course where they are that short.  He mentions that they might lead to a change in depth perception.  Seems contrived.  Anyway, while there is certainly no universal standard  I suspect a four foot pin is highly unusual.  If Phil reads this thread I'd be curious to know why Glen Erin decided on 4 foot flagsticks.

Cliff:

The flags at Glen Erin are shorter, for sure, but I didn't view them as all that gimmicky. Having played a bit in Scotland, where a lot of courses have shorter flags than in the U.S., it didn't seem all that unusual to me -- noticeable on the first hole at Glen Erin, but after that their height never entered my mind. To be honest, I liked that they were easier to handle than the often cumbersome and whippy flagsticks I see alot. I've never quite understood why flagstick heights are a big deal -- they should be a common height for all holes, but beyond being visible from some point in the fairway, I don't think it's that big a deal.

Some courses, like Ross' Point Judith in Rhode Island, deliberately use shorter flagsticks because of wind considerations. That's not the case at Glen Erin, which isn't any more wind there than any other southern WI course. I'm not sure exactly why they put them in that way -- as I'd mentioned, the course really pushes the Irish theme (more a reflection of the area -- Janesville was settled by Irish families, and the city is home still to a large number of folks with Irish heritage), and maybe the course thinks it's a way to make the course look more Irish.

[Bill Shamleffer]

The 15th hole at St. Louis C.C. used to have a taller flagstick.  The 15th is a short par 5, with a slight valley where the drives end-up.  Not only does the taller flagstick allow those going for the green in two to have an idea where the holes is located, but it has the additional benefit of signaling to those players to know when the group in front has completed their play on that hole.

St. Louis C.C. is a far cry from a resort or public course, and even guest or other outside play is not significant.

To Carl Johnson's question about informing fellow competitors or opponents per the location of a hole: this is permitted by the rules of golf.  As is yardage information "from a permanent object" and other "public information”.  See Rule 8, including the definition of "advice"

In my copy of the Decisions that I keep at in my desk at work (1989 version), one of the decision in this section states that a player's caddie may take a club and show the player how to play a specific shot.  I would feel good about my match if I looked over and saw my opponent receiving mid-round swing advise from his caddie (no matter who the caddie).  And I caddied for about 15 years.

[Josh Stevens]

Played Hunstanton some weeks ago.  I recall a blind par 3 over a hill, so i guess the flag length is rather moot

[Greg Chambers]

You mentioned the top of the flag can be seen if played down the left side of the fairway, so wouldn't this play into the strategy of the hole?  If you want a view of the flag, hit it down the left.

We have 5 1/2 foot flagsticks here at our course.  We switched to them about three years ago and the feedback has been mostly positive.  We have a design that is heavily influenced by the great heathland courses of Scotland, and we are on a very windy site.  The flags are more stable in high winds, and the cup and hole remain more clean due to this.  Plus our greens are on the small side, and the shorter flagstick gives the illusion of a larger green surface.

[Doug Ralston]

To my recollection, the flagsticks at Twisted Gun are only 4ft. They told me at the clubhouse that this was because the taller ones were damaging the green by bending very hard in the persistant strong winds up there; that the cup was actually tilting in the dirt from it.

It does indeed give a depth perception problem. I always felt the green was further than it was. I was forced to look for yardage markers, and even then my body wants to make a swing based on it's perception rather than your numbers. Really marked when slightly below green level with a short iron to wedge. Strange. I had never considered this aspect till I played there. Overall, I liked it. It added variety to your thoughts on the course.

Doug

[John Moore II]

I think most of the courses where I have worked had a standard 7 foot tall flagstick (might have been 6'-6") I have also played courses that had been recently set up for tournaments and had 8' sticks. Tobacco Road has at least 2 holes (maybe 3, I can't remember is hole #15 has a longer flagstick) that have flagsticks that are 10' tall and depending on where the flag is cut, you still can't see them given the construction of the green and surrounds. The 10' stick looks wierd and I guess thats the point given the odd nature of TR.

If a longer stick helps and this is a public course where pace of play needs to be quickened, go with the big sticks. If this is a private club where you have mostly 'inside' play of guys who know the course and also have pin sheets, there is no need to go with the longer sticks.

[Jamie Barber]

Played Hunstanton some weeks ago.  I recall a blind par 3 over a hill, so i guess the flag length is rather moot

but there's an aiming post behind the green I think

[PCCraig]

I would just get a taller flagstick for that hole.

Mostly for safety reasons to see if people are still on the green in front of you.

[Lawrence Largent]

My best friend is the pro at Twisted Gun and the flagsticks there are really short.  He told me they get all kinds of comments about the flag sticks mostly good.  I personally like them and they do play tricks with your depth perception.  Cherokee was the first club that I ever saw use the short flag sticks I'm not sure if they were  4 foot or not.  The guy that pretty much runs the place loved the fact that it messed with players and there depth perception.  For the guys that thinks it's contrived it's no more than having the tee box not level in my opinion.

Lawrence

[Criss Titschinger]

Windy Knoll in Springfield OH has very short flag sticks (I think about 4 ft).  As you can guess by the name of the course, it does get a bit windy around there.  I'll agree with the comment that it does mess with depth perception, especially if you're not used to it.

[Doug Ralston]

Thanks Criss;

That WAS the other place I saw the short flagsticks, Windy Knoll. Fun course, great golf value. [But not the incredible views of Twisted Gun] I like the whole idea of variable flagstick lengths, for both visual and physical reasons.

Doug

[Dunlop_White]

Roaring Gap Club has short wooden flagsticks that cam from Cheesebrough Mtg. see below

http://www.cheesebrough.com/Stout.html

[Ben Sims]

I think Sheep Ranch has flagsticks in the 3 foot range.  I think its just because the wind shreds the flags and unnecessarily warps the sticks. My friend and I didn't complain about not seeing a pin or having depth perception issues on any of our approach shots.   

[Jaeger Kovich]

Just got back from a trip to Scotland... Apparently Carnoustie has extra long flagsticks... or at least on one hole that I remember the par 3 #13, which also happened to be my favorite hole on the course! If Carnoustie, with their wind, weather and history can have extra long flagsticks, anyone can!

[Will Peterson]

Apparently Carnoustie has extra long flagsticks...

I remember the flags being longer, but I also remember that the piece that went into the hole was very long.  I was surprised at how deep they would have to cut the holes to accomodate the long end of the flagstick.  They were also very flexible, so the wind could nearly bend them to the ground and they would not break.

My home course has problems with flags breaking in the wind.  They use the very heavy rigid flags.  They will tip over and rip up the sides of cups and eventually break at the point where it enters the cup.  They put in new cups and flags that are not round and smooth, but rather have teeth like a gear.  It has kept them up and reduced the damage to the holes, but if any sand or dirt gets in the teeth they become very difficult to get out of the cup.

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