Golf in India pre-1860

[Melvyn Morrow]

Below is a letter from India, which was complied while the Competition that was soon to become The Open was in the planning stage. The venue for this special match, open to some but not all (we have to wait until 1861 for the first real Open which would be open to all) is to be played upon a 12 hole course on the West side of Scotland at a wee place called Prestwick. I have the pleasure of advising that God’s chosen (with their kilts & tartans) were exporting The Royal & Ancient Game to many corners of the world.

For your entertainment and information, I attach a report on the Golf in India dated 1st February 1860.


A course in India, the Punjab which is reported as a good three miles out and back with some interesting natural hazards may well convey a full 18 hole course.

The Victorian generation must be much hardier that we are today because I would guess that many on this site alone would not play a round unless they have an umbilical tie to a cart. 

The true sons of Caledonia taking the game to the world. Yet today we import carts, and all types of aids to make the game easy. Makes you wonder if we have any balls left. Good men & women died in Iraq, yet we are leaving with no honour, our bankers cheat and steal, our politicians cannot be trusted and many cannot play golf without carts or aids. But it is just another day in this lets make it easy world of ours. You of course may not agree. But does not take away the fact that Golf was played on a 3 mile course in India pre February 1860.

Melvyn

[Steve Salmen]

Melvyn,

I believe the oldest golf course outside the UK is the Royal Calcutta, founded in 1829.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

You may be right, I was interested in the 3mile course back in 1860 - thanks for the information

Melvyn

[Tony_Muldoon]

Yet today we import carts, and all types of aids to make the game easy. Makes you wonder if we have any balls left. Good men & women died in Iraq, yet we are leaving with no honour, our bankers cheat and steal, our politicians cannot be trusted and many cannot play golf without carts or aids. But it is just another day in this lets make it easy world of ours. You of course may not agree.

Melvyn I presume the point of this is to convince people to forgo carts?  May I suggest it's a strange way to go about it, talking about something that wouldn't be invented until nearly a century later?

(Not to mention how it diverts people from thinking about your fine discovery of this interesting piece, for which I thank you.  Did you find the apparent reference to six teeing off togetherintriguing?  Now that surely didn't come from Scotland?).

Basically I'm also against carts, but I don't believe you are helping my side of the argument. Let me give you a clue. Read the quote again in the voice of Dr Ian Paisley preaching and suddenly it seems to make perfect sense; no matter what the context he always denounced the same evils. 

PS check out the current North Berwick thread, there the course length is shown as 3 miles 786 yards.  this would be half a century later than your newspaper excerpt but these are the only two examples of giving the length in miles that I can think of.  Was it commonplace?

[Garland Bayley]

Did they play the ladies tees, because a lady was present?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tony

As for carts, aids etc that is the choice of each individual golfer to make.

Its legal and I do not see that changing because everyone wants an easy life. Some will take it that little bit further, those parasites who run the banks, the greedy selfish ‘I’m all right’ politicians who only ever act upon their own self-interest, yet the people who put their lived on the line for our society are discarded once their work is done, or when they become a burden to the powers that be.

I am no Ian Paisley, but I will continue to speak out on matters that I feel are alien to the true spirit of the game of golf.  Want, need or have to use these aids then do so it is still acceptable and legal. Nevertheless, our forefathers never needed them, so IMHO it shows a weakness. 

As for six ball, why not, did not seem to slow other players down and it would be good value for money for course and players.   

Melvyn

[PCCraig]

Tony

As for carts, aids etc that is the choice of each individual golfer to make.

Its legal and I do not see that changing because everyone wants an easy life. Some will take it that little bit further, those parasites who run the banks, the greedy selfish ‘I’m all right’ politicians who only ever act upon their own self-interest, yet the people who put their lived on the line for our society are discarded once their work is done, or when they become a burden to the powers that be.

I am no Ian Paisley, but I will continue to speak out on matters that I feel are alien to the true spirit of the game of golf.  Want, need or have to use these aids then do so it is still acceptable and legal. Nevertheless, our forefathers never needed them, so IMHO it shows a weakness. 

As for six ball, why not, did not seem to slow other players down and it would be good value for money for course and players.   

Melvyn

This thread seems to be another avenue for Melvyn to spew indirect insults at Americans in general, all while promoting his personal agenda of outlawing carts...all in the name of dead soldiers??

I am all for walking while playing golf anytime possible under any weather conditions 1000% and I don't use any "aids" other than a sprinkler head for yardage. However the way Melvyn is pushing his ideals onto others is plain wrong. Why not give people the knowledge of the benefits of walking golf and let them decide themselves instead of speaking down to others in a fashion of some sort of "holy" golf.

Quite frankly this thread should be deleted as it serves no purpose but Melvyns.

It is a shame really, as Tony says, because the first article you posted is neat and a point of discussion on its own.

[Garland Bayley]

This thread seems to be another avenue for Melvyn to spew indirect insults at Americans in general, all while promoting his personal agenda of outlawing carts...all in the name of dead soldiers??
...

I'm not insulted in the least. Why are you?

Get over yourself!

[PCCraig]

This thread seems to be another avenue for Melvyn to spew indirect insults at Americans in general, all while promoting his personal agenda of outlawing carts...all in the name of dead soldiers??
...

I'm not insulted in the least. Why are you?

Get over yourself!

I wasn't either the first 700 times I've read the same post from Melvyn.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks much for the find, Melvyn.

What strikes me about the article is how it's all about the golf.  Those playing in India and those reporting about it in Scotland aren't bothering to  compare/contrast the golf courses or the quality of the golf courses; they're not arguing that it's better to play in the cold and rain than in the hot and dry;  they're not mentioning the architecture, and no one is longing for the links.  It's just about playing with friends, and about who's beating who.  All of which confirms again for me that the thrifty Scots hadn't picked the linksland because it was somehow great for golf; they picked it because it wasn't good for anything else, like growing food for example. The game, over time, then evolved to suit that land. Which is to say, if we want to capture the true spirit of the links and of the old Scots who honoured the game, maybe we should be building courses on land that isn't good for anything else, and let the game be what it is, there.

But maybe I'm reading too much into it....

Peter   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

Clearly, you cannot read or you do not understand what you are reading, because if you had then you would have noticed I used the word import. No mention of your land, no mention of Americans. You have to run and hid behind a flag and try to use it to stir a reaction against me.

As for the dead again I was referring to OUR dead, our soldiers, our police
which our politicians seem more than happy to have them do their dirty work for them. However, once shot, blown up, caught on camera doing their unpleasant jobs, our (not your) lords and masters seem happy to leave our brave guys open to all criticism. The easy world of our politicians and bankers.

Like golf I want our people protected, if that is anti American then Pat you have a really big problem. The easy way is not always the right way, there are times when one has to stand and say No I don’t agree.

I expect that your next attack on me will be that I am a raciest. As for America, some of you just do not know how to tread close friend.   

Melvyn

PS Pat if you do not like my posts why read them?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Peter

I had a similar opinion on the short article, it does show IMHO the common purpose of golf with the Ladies being a helping distraction form the conditions. I enjoyed the story, the enjoyment of the game. No mentioning of changing rules to accommodate conditions, just get on with it. Those 19th Century guys deserve more credit for what they gave to golf.

Thanks, I enjoyed your post.

Melvyn

[PCCraig]

Pat

Clearly, you cannot read or you do not understand what you are reading, because if you had then you would have noticed I used the word import. No mention of your land, no mention of Americans. You have to run and hid behind a flag and try to use it to stir a reaction against me.

As for the dead again I was referring to OUR dead, our soldiers, our police
which our politicians seem more than happy to have them do their dirty work for them. However, once shot, blown up, caught on camera doing their unpleasant jobs, our (not your) lords and masters seem happy to leave our brave guys open to all criticism. The easy world of our politicians and bankers.

Like golf I want our people protected, if that is anti American then Pat you have a really big problem. The easy way is not always the right way, there are times when one has to stand and say No I don’t agree.

I expect that your next attack on me will be that I am a raciest. As for America, some of you just do not know how to tread close friend.   

Melvyn

PS Pat if you do not like my posts why read them?

I read them because I have an open mind and for once I thought you were posting something informative and open for discussion.

The true sons of Caledonia taking the game to the world. Yet today we import carts, and all types of aids to make the game easy. Makes you wonder if we have any balls left. Good men & women died in Iraq, yet we are leaving with no honour, our bankers cheat and steal, our politicians cannot be trusted and many cannot play golf without carts or aids. But it is just another day in this lets make it easy world of ours. You of course may not agree. But does not take away the fact that Golf was played on a 3 mile course in India pre February 1860.

Melvyn

You are trying to tell me that the purpose of your post is the show that you hope the Soldiers in Iraq can be protected by not using carts or rangefinders?

What makes you think that every banker cheats and steals? That police officers do the "dirty work" of public officials? That is on the same par of stupid as the believe that every Scot wears a kilt to work.




Melvyn-

I have no reason whatsoever to "attack" you, and as I've said 100 times now I believe in the same ideals of golf that you do. However you do a horrrible job of selling your beliefs though attacks of your own.

Can't you see that there are far bigger problems with the game of golf than carts and rangefinders? That there are FAR more interesting things to discuss?

[Adam Clayman]

The ladies mention is priceless.  My first thought was -Another example of where the American typical golfer's mindset is off center and exclusionary.


 Pat Craig You protest to much.


 Melvyn should be free to rail against whatever he feels, as often as he likes, without censorship. The connection between a loss of values in all aspects of modern life, and golf, are correlated.

 Thank you  for illustrating.

[PCCraig]

 Pat Craig You protest to much.


 Melvyn should be free to rail against whatever he feels, as often as he likes, without censorship. The connection between a loss of values in all aspects of modern life, and golf, are correlated.

 Thank you  for illustrating.

I don't agree.

However I'll leave Melvyn to his dead horse for good.

[Joe Hancock]

From that neat article that could have been posted without additional commentary, so far we have:

Carts are bad

Women don't get to play enough any more

Hmmm.

I was imagining the setting...the rising sun, the three mile hike, the implied beauty of the site, including some rugged landscape and plants.

So, my advice is simple. Instead of turning a positive into a negative, take a lady out for a round of golf....and don't talk so much.

Joe

[Pete_Pittock]

Melvyn,
This article on the 79th Highlanders (Cameron) near its end talks about locations in India and some commanders.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/scotreg/camerons/chap2.htm

[RSLivingston_III]

Melvin,
I wonder if the six and for are simple that many guys in their regular group and they do go out as matches. One following another. I believe he actually said two, four or six. I find it interesting always a multiple of two.

[Niall C]

PS check out the current North Berwick thread, there the course length is shown as 3 miles 786 yards.  this would be half a century later than your newspaper excerpt but these are the only two examples of giving the length in miles that I can think of.  Was it commonplace?

[/quote]

Tony,

Back then it was standard practice to give length of course in miles.

Niall

[Bill_McBride]

PS check out the current North Berwick thread, there the course length is shown as 3 miles 786 yards.  this would be half a century later than your newspaper excerpt but these are the only two examples of giving the length in miles that I can think of.  Was it commonplace?

Tony,

Back then it was standard practice to give length of course in miles.

Niall
[/quote]

Today's 7,000 yard course is just a hair under 4 miles, 3.977 to be precise.  Of course walking some of today's cart-oriented courses could require another mile of hiking from greens to tees!

(That last inserted on behalf of M. Morrow  )

What an amazingly easy walk North Berwick is!

By the way, I'm reading one of the Flashman books right now, one where Flashy is in 1850's India, and surprisngly there is no mention of golf whatsoever, mostly near-naked wenches and dastardly Punjabis, but that's Flashman for you.

[Gary Slatter]

M, thanks for the piece about India.    Do you have any records of what group of British soldiers built the golf course in Manderville Jamaica?  Apparently they were playing it in 1867, still are.  It is the Manchester Golf Club which must be a clue.  I had been told it might have been the Coldstream Guards but can't find any info. 
cheers, Gary

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gary

Try the following link http://www.jnht.com/heritage_site.php?id=312 for info on the Manchester Club Golf Course

Melvyn

[Tom Dunne]

I loved this document so much I did a blog post on it. Wonderful find, Melvyn.

http://out-and-back.net/?p=756

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat,

I hate political talk here but I must draw to your attention the fact that 179 British servicemen and women died in Iraq. For Melvyn to make a statement doesn't mean he's knocking America, you maybe surprised to hear some UK courses use carts as well!

As for Indian golf, British army officers set up golf courses on their travels to play the ancient game whilst serving abroad.

Mark

[PCCraig]

Pat,

I hate political talk here but I must draw to your attention the fact that 179 British servicemen and women died in Iraq. For Melvyn to make a statement doesn't mean he's knocking America, you maybe surprised to hear some UK courses use carts as well!

As for Indian golf, British army officers set up golf courses on their travels to play the ancient game whilst serving abroad.

Mark

The fact that he is comparing any dead soldier (I never actually said American troops...but soldiers in general) to his parade of self-assuring crap is horrible. The way he takes a perfectly good article and turns it into an anti-cart post shows just how one dimensional he really is. No I'm not shocked that UK clubs use carts, but why that is Melvyn's business at all confounds me as he has zero authority except in the name of his great^25 grandfather that has nothing to do with his crusade.

Somehow I think Garland's "get over yourself" comment should have been directed at Melvyn.