Attention Colorado GCAers...CommonGround Round? July 8--Final Call!

[Brad Swanson]

The descriptions and  photos really up my anticipation of playing CommonGround in July.  Thanks very much for posting them.

Cheers,
Brad

[Kalen Braley]

Richard,

If your looking for recommendations in the area before you make your way out to ballyneal, Murphy Creek is very much worth a play as well. 

[Adam Clayman]

Just from looking at the Photos from the website, I'd say Tom was really channelling Pete.

Any comment on that Tom?

It was a compliment of a subtle nature.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

Do you mean Pete Dye?  Well I guess Eric and Don and Jim all worked for the Dyes, too, so maybe there is something to that, but it wasn't me.

I have written elsewhere that I allowed my associates more direct input on this course than any we've done to date, because it was really their impetus to take on a project like this.  And all of them had a fair amount of direct input, including the three above plus Brian Schneider and Brian Slawnik and Bruce Hepner, each of whom built a fair share of the greens and bunkers.

The result is more "eclectic" in look than any course we've done, but I don't mind that -- I actually think that it helps, considering the site was dull visually to start with.  None of the bunkering is big and flashy, but they vary in size and orientation and position; and the mounds around the 3rd green are a big contrast to the fallaway 1st and the plateau 2nd.  [Doug Wright, you are right that the long-range views were a big factor in the routing, but most of that was due to Don Placek and some to Jim Urbina ... as someone who's not a Denver native, I thought the views were too long-range to attach all that much importance to them, but it seems that everyone in Denver identifies with the mountains more than I do.  I won't bother arguing about the tree ... there are those who think it should go, most of whom are long hitters who want to go for that green in two, but I'm not one of them, and I still get some say in stuff. ]

[Ben Sims]

Doug,

Don't take my newness to golf architecture as naivety.  Trust me, I am not going to CG expecting the urban Ballyneal.  What I am expecting is a nice public course, replete with with strategy and playability, that will join Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse as the leaders of the genre.  In fact, I am just as excited to see CG as Ballyneal.  But for completely different reasons.  And believe me when I say that I am not out there "trophy hunting" by trying to see courses.  But in seeing both of those courses (36-54 at Ballyneal Saturday, and 18 plus the short course at CG) I hope to better understand the qualities that make a hole great.  Even if they are of completely different type and genre.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

The Short course at Common Ground is as simple as could be ... it's designed for the 10-and-under set.  Not sure if they are allowing unaccompanied adults!

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

Someone once asked me in some touchy seminar we had back in college; what was the worst thing that ever happened to me?  I immediately said, "Growing up".

Now I know its true.

[Adam Russell]

 I too was part of the gang that built CommonGround, adding that special Georgian touch to all those Midwest accents  It's special to hear all the compliments, Doug Wright seemed to nail the great features of the course, and the mention of the detail work in the bunkers made me a little proud. The thing is almost every bunker out there has a nickname.

 CommonGround is so cool to me because there are some features built there that are really unique. The hump in front of the green on #11, the half-pipe green on #5, the transitions from  catcher's-mitt green to the surrounds on #9, the 10th green, the hump on #8, and the bunker 50 yards from the tees on #11 that fronts a stream. Its so close you can throw a ball over it from the middle tees. Add that to the bunker styles, and you get a course with features mostly found at exclusive private clubs. But I think the coolest thing is the public will finally get to see the difference between bad and good golf architecture. So many people around the area used to play the old course, and now get to see how much better the quality is at the new course. That to me is as educational as GCA gets, and I think most lay golfers will get to understand the influence of GCA because of the comparison.  That doesn't happen on public golf courses much, so I think its worthy of study just for that. It was the time of my life learning from Eric and the rest of the crew.
 
 The place is not  without a few scars though. I was always in favor of downing the tree at #18, and I think the 6th hole doesn't play or look much like the #16th at ANGC. Its a good hole in its own right but it seems to be getting over-shadowed (and over-hyped) by everyone saying its a replica. I also think the cross-hatching mowing pattern looks a little strange for the type of setting. A one-cut or traditional up-and-back would make it look much cooler, although I can see people enjoying getting CCFAD conditioning at a bargain price. Bobby and Tracy can pull that off day-to-day and make it play fast, so I guess that's nitpicking. Overall, I try to think of things in terms of price vs. what you get design-wise, and for that CommonGround is up there with the best I've seen. You could spend a long time studying the strategies and angles there. But I'm biased  .

Matt Ward: I'll take a shot at this ranking you're after. Its the best public in Denver, best public anywhere east of the mountains, and probably right up there around 4 overall in the state, behind a couple of the ritzy mountain resorts (Red Sky, Maroon) and neck-and-neck with Lakota. Much better than Murphy's Creek.  My best comparison to another course would be Longshadow here at home.

And for Peter Z., a long-lost picture of the Boyos that made it happen...

[Peter Zarlengo]

Adam,

Thanks for that response. Some good fun was had out there and some great observations from someone who has spent a ton of time out there. The coolest thing about peole getting to see good architecture is that they get to see how a course can go from mundane to special, without "wearing out the dirt" and building up a bunch of huge and obnoxious features, tricking it up, or spending a ton of dollars. The overall atmosphere and vibe there is spot on: no frills, just good golf. Build cool greens, build cool bunkers, play ball.

And as we field tested - you can throw the ball over those bunkers.

And thanks for the picture. Its cool seeing that, too bad you weren't around the following day to get schlacked by my killer fade. I've got a good one from opening day I'll have to get you.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Matt Ward,

You'd have to go pretty far to get a better public option than CommonGround. Maybe Wild Horse. But I haven't played much in the mountains. Its all too expensive or all feels/looks like the same thing.

Its better to compare CommonGround to some of the private courses in the area, because it has more of that kind of feel. And in my opinion from a standpoint of strategy, interest, and fun it can hold its own with the best of them.

But, like Adam, I'm biased.

[Adam Russell]

Big Z,
 But you know that next round at Bally would have been hard to top eating Eric's wife's cookies hungover in the parking lot, hanging with COLOGNE, and accidentally meeting Mike DeVries in the midst of a "relievement" during a certain party

[Tom_Doak]

I fear that the golf course is starting to become overhyped in this forum.

It's a really good course.  Anybody who gets to Denver should go check it out ... it won't set back your pocketbook much and you ought to have fun.  Anything more than that is just opinion anyway.

One thing I'm most happy about is that we really did what the client asked.  Some of the other proposals for the job insisted that the CGA raise (or borrow!) more money so they could build something really special, because the land was mundane but it was a "valuable piece of real estate."  We just said we'd do our best to improve the course as much as we could with the money they had.

[Jim Nugent]

Like I told my fiance'. "Honey, I didn't buy you that car because it says BMW, I bought it for it's reputation, safety, handling, etc.  If Chevrolet did all those things as well, I would've bought one of those." 

Check out the Cadillac CTS or CTS-V.  Buries BMW in everything except maybe reputation. 

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Earlier when I said you, I of course meant you and team. Clearly the low profile features are str8 out of Pete's playbook.

Interesting how you feel about it being possibly over-hyped. I think it's just another thread topic amongst a sea of them. Thankfully it's been mostly about the GCA and none of the other pitfalls that pervade many threads.

It's not over-hyped. Although your philanthropy should be recognized. The course sounds like it will be loved by many for years to come.

I did sit in the parking lot back on Sunday April 5th for about ten minutes. Watched some poor dudes work in the cold and rain moving lots of dirt near what appeared the entrance. Any guess on what they may have been doing that late in the game? It appeared be some foundation set into a hollow, but I have no idea.

[Ben Sims]

I think some of us are excited to see CommonGround for what it's not.  It's not flashy, it's doesn't have the ocean or chop hills or a gorgeous trout stream. It looks to be a sustainable model for affordable and interesting public golf. Overhyped?  Maybe.  But this is something new and exciting.

[Wyatt Halliday]

But I think the coolest thing is the public will finally get to see the difference between bad and good golf architecture. So many people around the area used to play the old course, and now get to see how much better the quality is at the new course. That to me is as educational as GCA gets, and I think most lay golfers will get to understand the influence of GCA because of the comparison. 

Adam,

This part of your post interests me most. I think the public will play the course and really like it, but they will have no idea why, and wouldn't be able to explain it in detail. I'm speaking in terms of the general public here, those who aren't as familiar with the Renaissance team. Like I said before, it is different than any other public offering in the state and that alone will leave an indelible impression. It definitely struck a chord with me. I'm biased as well, but for multiple reasons.

Wyatt

[Adam Russell]

Wyatt,
 I can understand that point of view, and on most sites I would agree totally. I based a good deal of what I say off the first impressions from Peter Z., who lives within 5 min. of the course. The connection to the old course seemed to be one where people excused the design and conditions because it was cheap, close by, and didn't try to be the best course in Denver. CG is the same thing, and I think it a unique situation because some parts of the new holes used small stretches of the old (#4 corridor springs to mind) and drastically bettered it. Combine that with the features that strike a sharp contrast between the flat land, and I  do think people will understand the GCA. I can really see someone looking at the hump on #11 and at least understanding that the new course is better/cooler than the old, and  getting why that's so because of the new features. They won't care to ask about Renaissance, and perhaps I giving too much credit to the average golfer, but I think CG is in a unique position to show how much better you can make a new course from an existing one. I've tried to think of another place where a mundane public course on such flat land got blown up and re-created to make something so apparently better, but I can't. And I think the average golers who played the former Mira Vista will take notice.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

Must've been the burial of the old clubhouse that you saw.  When they found out how much it would cost to rebuild it, they decided to implode it instead, and wanted to get that done before opening day, so it was a bit of a rush.  They are operating out of a temporary facility for a while ... and personally, I hope that temporary lasts about 40 years, because their mission statement didn't say anything about a clubhouse.

But I still don't see the resemblance to Pete Dye's work.  We started out thinking we would build the bunkers and greens to look like Raynor's work ... maybe that's what you see, because that was what Mr. Dye emulated as well.  But as we got more into the project I think everyone forgot about that, and in the end a lot of the features look more like Donald Ross than Raynor to me.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, As I qualified, it was a sense from the few pics I have seen.

[Doug Wright]

I fear that the golf course is starting to become overhyped in this forum.

It's a really good course.  Anybody who gets to Denver should go check it out ... it won't set back your pocketbook much and you ought to have fun.  Anything more than that is just opinion anyway.

I concur with the statements above. I'm hard pressed to say this course is instantly in the top 5 courses in the state!

I never thought "Pete Dye" once when I played it.

Ross? Sort of on some holes, but sort of not too. I don't recall any Ross greens as large as some of those on this course. I guess I'd call it classically eclectic. Certainly not a replica course of any type, just solid architecture. 

[Brad Swanson]

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

       - Sigmund Freud, or not

[Jim Colton]

Anxiously awaiting for Ben's detailed write-up on CommonGround tomorrow.

[Richard Choi]

I just played on Friday and I thought it was great. Very enjoyable muni with some very interesting holes and green complexes. I think it is a great place for a junior player to learn different ways to play.

I also would love to hear what Ben thought about as well...

[Brad Fleischer]

Can not wait to hear ben's take on the new improved course that is now CG . As a matter of fact anyone that would skip a round at ballyneal in favor of a round at CG needs a standing ovation . That's some serious dedication on his part . I for one would DEF go another loop around ballyneal before I even considered a round at CG . That is not a knock on CG though i'm just saying......   

[Peter_Herreid]

Lots of severe weather here at DIA--I hope Ben's OK and not getting hit by lightning or something at CommonGround.  He is truly taking one for the team by experiencing it in these conditions.  Thanks, Ben and can't wait to read your report!