Scary holes

[Patrick_Mucci]

Enclosed is a list of holes I consider scary.

What do you think of the "scare factor" on these holes ?

What holes would you add.

Below is an initial list.

#   1 NGLA, Prestwick
#   2 PV
#   3 NGLA
#   4 Baltusrol Lower, Spyglass
#   5 Pine Valley
#   6 Preakness Hills, The Creek,
#   7 Pine Valley
#   8 Pebble Beach, NGLA, Old Marsh
#   9 Shinnecock, Pebble Beach, Maidstone,Turnberry, YALE
#  10 Winged Foot West, Shinnecock, Pebble Beach
#  11 Shinnecock, The Creek, Westhampton, ANGC
#  12 ANGC
#  13 Pine Valley, Old Marsh, Plainfield,
#  14 Boca Rio
#  15 NGLA, Winged Foot West, GCGC
#  16 Cypress Point,
#  17 St Andrews, Seminole, Merion, Boca Rio, Old Marsh
#  18 NGLA, GCGC, Pebble Beach

[Paul Turner]

I agree the 1st at Prestwick is scary.  You can BOUNCE a cut approach over that wall.

How about Yale's 9th.  Visually, it's intimidating, particularly for the weaker golfer.  Maybe not too bad for a good golfer though?

Back in Britain.  The 13th at Addington is extremely intimidating (worse than Yale) as is the approach to the 12th.

But the true fear factor course is Hoylake with its internal OOB at different angles which come into play on several shots; the course was significantly more scary with the OOB next to the green at the seventh.   The World Atlas of Golf titled its piece in Hoylake "An Excercise in Fear" and this is echoed in Patric Dickinson's poetic description in "A Round of Courses".

Brancater's 3rd,8th,9th are have plenty of scary shots too.  Very difficult raised targets guarded by sleepered bunkers.

And Ran's favourite Westward Ho! with it's sea rushed gets pretty scary at the 10th.

[ian]

Pat,

#15 at Bandon Dunes may be the hardest par 3 I have ever played. It may be the single hardest shot I've seen in golf. The fact that the green flows into the abyss on the right makes it cruel. Now I won't be able to sleeep tonight.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

I will amend my list to include the 9th at YALE.

I haven't played the others that you and Ian mentioned.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

Trying to think of holes we might have both played.  I remember yourself, Ran, GeoffreyC hitting from the back tee at the 1st at Yale and that's pretty scary tee shot!

Sleepy Hollow has three "white knuckle" shots, the 3rd and 16th par 3s, but perhaps the most severe is the 6th tee shot?

The 13th at The Knoll is probably more scary than it first appears.  Because if you miss the green (particularly right) you're ten fee under!

Lehigh's water carries certainly have intimidation at 4,7,11.

Tiny Painswick has a couple of intimidation holes that will even make the very good golfer take stock: the 14th and 16th tee shots

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The scariest hole I've come across it #8 Pebble Beach. After hitting driver through the fairway and into the Pacific, I dropped a ball at the edge of the chasm. The shot is no doubt one of the most intimidating in golf, but addressing the ball only a single step from a 100 foot drop and death is not something you normally encounter in the game. For someone who is a free swinger and at the time played golf in Wallabies -- swing within yourself was my mission statement.

[John_Conley]

#2 Bonita Bay (Bay Island):  I played with a guy who hit is ball left by the lake and came to rest within 5 yards of a Momma Gator and about a dozen babies.

#13 Black Diamond (Quarry):  You tee up from about 190 and tilt your head toward the green, only to stare straight down into the crevass.

[Paul_Turner]

One more.  Isn't the tee shot and approach to the 15th at Prestwick pretty scary?  There isn't much margin for error.

[Mike_Cirba]

Pete Dye is still the modern king of visual intimidation, and after playing PGA West Stadium recently, I could cite any number of holes there as qualifiers.

Still, Pete for the most part uses water as the ultimate death, and it makes me wonder if that's half as scary as what you see at Pine Valley on many approach shots.

The difference is subtle but telling.  At Pine Valley, Crump shows you exactly what will happen to the misplayed approach, but the most intimidating, and SCARY thing, is knowing that you WILL be able to find your ball and have to play it from there!  

In other words, the fun's only begun once the golfer fails to successfully negotiate the scary shot.

It's also the course where the psychology of succesfully negotiating the minefied adds accelerating pressure to the golfer.  Last time, I stood on the third tee at one under.  In what could be best described as an act of merciful self-suicide, I pulled my tee shot to the right, probably with some intent, and walked to the fourth tee at 2 over.

[Mike_Cirba]

Just to add to my thread last week about the highly penal course I played at Ron Fream's Shore Gate course, I'm not personally so certain that SCARY always equals "good".

I think it takes a master's touch from an architectural standpoint to pull off the creation of either a scary golf course or even a scary hole.  

I'm still twitching, and wonder how I'll be able to pull the club back tomorrow after a week's recovery time.

Let's just say that in the wrong hands, scary golf holes and courses hardly re-energize the golfer to have at it again.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
 In context to the Fream and Dale scheme of things, I understand completely.

Pine Valley #5 is an absolute.

So is approach on Hole o' the Cross #13 at The Old Course. (No I'm not talking about that course in San Diego near Chula Vista.)

The tee shot at #18 at Riviera is another. Its just like a great huge tidal wave about to splash down upon you, washing you out to the deep blue sea where there are hundreds of hungry tiger sharks with sharp teeth are ready to greet you.

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I agree with Tommy N.  The most scary hole I have ever played is #5 at Pine Valley.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy,

For someone who has argued that it's possible to discern a lot about a golf course from photographs and television, I have to admit that sometimes one is surprised to actually see something in person.  I'm sure Patrick will take great comfort to hear me say that.

I say this because having recently played Riviera, I must say that it loses something in photos and television, and that is the bold and grand scale of the features and property.

The 18th that you mention is a great example.  On television, the blind tee shot over the hillside appears both further away and less steep than what the golfer actually faces.  By a LONG SHOT.

Your description of a huge breaking wave is apt.  That hillside is at least 30% closer and 50% higher than anything I'd imagined from photos.  It's one of those "better stay down on this one" type of shots, because even a partially thinned drive will crash directly into the steep slope.

Funny thing is I got my pictures developed today from Riviera, and once again, the pictures look like scaled-down versions of the reality I witnessed out there.  

Things got busy returning to work the past two weeks, and I never had the opportunity to respond to Ran's thread about Riviera, but since I know you love The Riv so much, I'll tell you what I told BillV.

Riviera is very similar to the bold and creative genius of Merion in many respects, a grand design on limited acreage, and if anything, it's sorely underrated and the features are dynamite.  GeoffreyC and Brad had the same impression.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'll add,
10th at Shinnecock
11th at Shinnecock
Who else has back to back scary holes?

Also
17th at Crystal Downs (for me?)
16th at Cypress Point
2nd at Medalist

[R.S._Barker]

15th at Portmarnock
17th at Sawgrass

[Chris Kane]

The drive on 15 at New South Wales

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

17th at Sawgrass absolutely.
15 at Jasper Park
10 at Oakmont
8 at Uplands

[TEPaul]

Glad to see #17 Sawgrass finally mentioned. I would consider that one an extremely well known hole that had to be designed with one thing in mind--JUST TO BE SCARY!

#14 Dunluce Port Rush--"Calamity"

This one around 210 (played 3 times) in a high right to left crosswind was very scary. I remember the same sort of fractured concentration each time on that hole with a utility wood with the green somewhere in the back of my mind, the entire very scary front and right side knocking on my concentration and the bailout left side area trying to stay in my mind. Each time I got it to the bailout area as the wind swept the ball hard across the line. The members said in high winds even pros just play for the bailout area. This hole is one that any golfer would remember as scary--extreme rugged ground front and right with a extreme elevation drop to the Valley course way below to the right. A par 3 green that a rational golfer in the wind may not even try to hit is very memorable and certainly scary!

[Jeff Fortson]

Is it me or has no one but Patrick Mucci mentioned #17 at St. Andrews Old Course.  I would think that this might be the scariest I've played.

Jeff F.

[TEPaul]

Jeff F:

You and I might have a slightly different definition of what constitutes "scary".

To me a truly scary hole would be one that might have a particular very scary and demanding "must" shot to it with no real alternatives other than to just "do it"!

#17 Sawgrass and #14 Dunluce are such holes. I concede and agree that going at the "Road" hole in two is very scary but I know I can "sneak up" on the "Road" hole but there's no way to "sneak up" on those other two. Not by playing a golf ball anyway!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Having to hit your tee shot over a building, with out of bounds right, is pretty scary to me, and the next shot is no slouch.

Tommy N, Tim,

The first time I played PV I didn't have a scorecard and was depending on the caddy to advise me.  When I walked onto the fifth tee and looked at the ravine, the water, narrow distant fairway and green, I said, WOW, this is some par 4,
to which the caddy replied, "sir, this is a par 3", that is scary.

Tom MacWood,

The first time I played # 8 at Pebble, I thought the caddy was joking when he pointed out the 8th green from the fairway.  I thought it was a local practical joke, pulled on first timers, similar to the one pulled on # 15 tee at Pine Valley where the tee markers are angled over the lake, toward the 16th green.  I kept on asking, "where's the real green" and kept on looking up toward # 14 green, hoping the hole went in that direction.

I also peeked over the edge, and it is scary.  I did see a lunatic try to retrieve his ball which was lodged a few feet over the cliff.  Two golfers drove over the edge on a foggy day, and that may be the reason it's cart paths pretty much tee to green.

The old 17th at the Medalist was a fairly easy par 5, but that bunker short-right of the green was awfully scarey.

[BCrosby]

You have to include nos. 17 and 18 (the drive) at the TPC in JAX.

Bob

[ChrisB (Guest)]

If this question were asked 15 years ago, Augusta #12 might have been the first hole mentioned.  But for Tiger & Co. these days, it's not as scary as it used to be, unless the wind is swirling.  Still, I'm sure I'd be throwing up all over myself if I got the chance to play it.  (we need a vomiting or choking smiley face, don't we?)

[ChipOat]

Pat:

The third shot to the 7th at National was described by you on the "Angled Greens" thread as both "scary" and "frightening".

I agree - and not just for a far right pin.

Change your mind on this thread?

[Dub_ONeill]

I would include the 15th at Ballybunion. It is long, into the wind with no bailout visible from the tee.