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Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3700 on: July 31, 2009, 10:29:56 AM »
Mike, you are off on a tangent and I'd like to get the bottom of a few things, before you completely move on:

1.  You argue that adding the land behind the clubhouse was obvious.  So why then wasn't it Hugh Wilson who was adding it?   If CBM's role was as you say it was then what the heck was he doing advising Merion to add this land to their golf course?   Do you really think it possible that he had no idea what he would do with it when he advised them (repeatedly) to add it?


David, first, let's clear up the misconception that Macdonald "advised them (repeatedly) to add it".   There is absolutely no record of that and frankly I think it was Tom Paul who incorrectly interpreted the MCC Minutes regarding the 3 acres purchase approved in April 1911 (the Thompson Resolution) and in trying to be fair to Macdonald and Whigham, thought that perhaps they should at least get credit for that as it was their recommdendation 10 months prior that Merion should grab that parcel adjacent to their clubhouse.   He now believes, as do I, that the 3 acres in question was a boundary line shift along today's Golf House Road that required Board Approval to move from the 117 acres they originally secured in November 1910 to the 120 that they eventually purchased in July 1911.  I know of no other mention of the 3 acres, so I'm not sure how the word "repeatedly" is appropriate to your description?  In fact, being strictly technical, there is no evidence that they specifically mentioned those three acres at all.

As far as whether it was obvious or not, or why Hugh Wilson wasn't the one who suggested it, that's just ridiculous, David.   At the time, in June 1910, Rodman Griscom invited M&W over to give their opinion on a property that Merion was considering for purchase.   The developer Connell had recently brought Garden City pro HH Barker over, who had been playing in the US Open in town.   We don't know if M&W were here visiting for that tournament or not, but in either case, they arrived and looked over the property.

The property in question at that time was almost certainly the northeastern and southern quadrants of the Johnson Farm which made up 119 acres in total, as that was the only land that Connell's group owned outright at that time.   After the meeting, Lesley reported that the purchase of "almost 120 acres" would be required.  

Because that land had certain disadvantages in terms of configuration and shape, and a large quarry, even though 120 acres was generally thought to be more than ample for a golf course when 6,100 yards was of Championship, or "ideal" configuration, M&W themselves told us that they weren't sure it was big enough.   It was "L shaped", it was narrow, it was crossed by a public road, it had a thin northern section and another odd configuration in the far southwest portion and again, it had that big quarry which was the good news/bad news.

So Macdonald & Whigham told them that, "The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying." and said, "So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done (note the languague, if they were indeed asked to design the course, wouldnt they say "were of of the opinion that WE can do it?) , provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House."

Note that they never do mention the 3 acres of railroad land they eventually leased, but instead simply said that they should try to get more land near the clubhouse.

Why would that be a good idea?   Well, for one, given the space taken up by the existing clubhouse structure(s) on what was already a fairly narrow strip, and the need for ingress and egress,  for a road for members with motor vehicles and probably a parking lot and the need for minimally locating starting and finishing holes there, and possibly returning nines, wouldn't that be a good recommendation on any level?   Plus, the creek would certainly make a nice hazard, possibly envisioned as a great closing hole somehow.

Indeed, they did mention the creek, as well as the quarry;  "Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features.  The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified."

Their mention of the quarry jumps right off the page which is why it always seemed strange to me that those who believe in a literal interpretation of Francis (LIFS) have to contend that the portion of property bought on Macdonald's recommendation ended abruptly and arbitrarily just 65 yards north of the quarry when much more land was availble...another 300+ yards, in fact going in that direction.   It seems absurd and almost bizarre that M&W would have impinged the Merion club with such a limiting configuration on a feature they obviously saw the potential of, the dramatic quarry.  


2.  You seem to have finally realized that your understanding of the NGLA meetings -- first day a general discussion about general principles and the second day a grand tour of NGLA -- makes absolutely no sense given what else we know.     Isn't it possible that this is not what they were doing at all?  And that they were actually discussing how to lay out the course?    After all, even your bud Alan Wilson acknowledges that the NGLA meetings were about the layout of the East Course?  

David,  they tell us specifically what they did at NGLA, and now you have not only Hugh Wilson's first-person 1916 recollections, but you have his 1911 Committee report, as well.   Why are you trying to put words into it that aren't there?    As far as Alan Wilson, he wasn't there at NGLA either, but this is what he said;  

"Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton....—twice came to Haverford, first to go over the ground and later to consider and advise about our plans. They also had our committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of Merion East were of the greatest help and value."

Their "advice" and "suggestions" certainly are not words signifying authorship, creation, or responsibility, but besides that, what does the first phrase of the sentence have to do with the second??   He was talking about their OVERALL help with the project, not what they did at NGLA!  He is saying that they came down and went over the ground....they came later to consider and advise about Merion's plans and we now know precisely what that means from the MCC Minutes, where Macdonald helped them pick the best plan of the final five they created....and oh, by the way, he also had our Committee out to the National to show them how he had done it there, and where the committee could see his sketches from abroad, as well as his versions of the ideal holes he had created at NGLA and pick his brain.   And that's PRECISELY what Hugh Wilson tells us they did, not one time, but twice!  

"...They went down to the National course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard to golf courses. The next day was spent on the ground studying the various holes that were copied after the famous ones abroad." - MCC Minutes April 1911

"We spent two days with Mr. Macdonald at his bungalow near the National course and in one night absorbed more ideas on golf course construction than in all the years we had played.   Through sketches and explanations of the correct principles of the holes that form the famous courses abroad and had stood the test of time, we learned what was right and what we should try to do with our natural conditions.  The next day we spent going over the course and studying the different holes." - Hugh Wilson 1916


As for your tangents, I agree that NGLA had a tremendous influence on future courses and still does.   But based on photos and descriptions of the courses in Philadelphia prior to NGLA and Merion, these courses had little or nothing in common with CBM's approach to architecture, or the fundamental strategic principles he advocated.  

You're kidding, right?   The men on the Merion Committee had been to the best courses in the US at that time, played regularly at Garden City, had now seen NGLA, and Philadelphins at the time were also heavily influenced by what a guy named Ross was doing at their winter retreat in North Carolina.  

In May 1912, five months before the opening of the new Merion course, "Far and Sure" wrote the following in "American Golfer";






To make some leap of contention that NGLA was their only source of influence based on the fact that most of the first courses in Philadelphia built around the turn of the previous century (most of which were designed by foreign professionals like John Reid, Willie Campbell, Willie Tucker) were of the steeple-chase variety is really a red-herring.   EVERYONE in America was changing at the time, due largely to the Haskell ball, but also because of a general frustration that was was originally built here wasn't very good.   And although NGLA was revolutionary in the sense of building 18 "ideal holes" based on holes abroad, these things were being talked about in cognescenti golf circles for a number of years prior...just read Travis during this time for a prime example...it's just that some of these things took time to bring to frutiion, as was the case with NGLA with about 5 years from start to opening.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 01:45:42 PM by MCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3701 on: July 31, 2009, 02:21:29 PM »
The month following "Far and Sure"'s January 1913 review of Merion in "American Golfer", A.W. Tillinghast writing as "Hazard" had some interesting items in the February 1913 issue.

First, he references the previous month's magazine review of Merion;




Then, there are two very interesting statements on this page.   First, he claims that in the prior month he "..attempted an analysis of the new Merion course...", and then proceeds to talk about another new one, Pine Valley.

As everyone knows, the only Merion review in "American Golfer" was by "Far and Sure".   Perhaps Tillinghast was referring to his "American Cricketer" article?

In any case, one other item I find fascinating is the last paragraph, where he expresses total confidence that George Crump and the other top golfers who are going to try and build Pine Valley are adeptly qualified, simply because they are top golfers.

I know we think that's strange today, but consider that at this time Tillinghast, who was simply a good player himself with no specialized training,  had just opened his first course at Shawnee that was quite well-received, and would be working on a new course for Aronimink, although some accounts list fellow members and also top golfers George Klauder and Cecil Calvert as assiting in that design.

He had just seen what the Merion committee of top amateur players had done, and doesn't flinch at all from his expressed level of confidence in Crump, Perrin, Joseph Clark, the Smith Brothers, and the others who were involved.   He does refer to a golf "architect", as well.   

At this point, in early 1913, had Harry Colt been brought down yet?

« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 02:23:18 PM by MCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3702 on: July 31, 2009, 02:58:25 PM »
Actually, here's Tillinghast calling amateur George Crump the architect in March 1913, two months before HS Colt arrived.








Finally, who is TIllinghast referring to as "our own experts"??!?   None of these guys had designed a course before.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 03:02:32 PM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3703 on: July 31, 2009, 05:52:36 PM »
Mike,

Love the old articles. Keep them coming, if you can. Not so sure I will love the inevitable of someone telling me what they mean......

It does seem to be another example of a course designed by committee, with the occaisional help from an expert from the outside, no?  Why is it so hard to believe that Merion did the same process a few years earlier?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3704 on: July 31, 2009, 08:20:36 PM »
Mike,

Love the old articles. Keep them coming, if you can. Not so sure I will love the inevitable of someone telling me what they mean......

It does seem to be another example of a course designed by committee, with the occaisional help from an expert from the outside, no?  Why is it so hard to believe that Merion did the same process a few years earlier?

Jeff,

Lest anyone think I'm busy protecting Hugh Wilson's mythical legend, do you know why Harry Colt was in Philadelphia in May of 1913?

He came at the invite of Hugh Wilson to "inspect" both Merion and Wilson's newest project at Seaview.   It leads me to wonder and speculate how much Colt had to do with the full development of the holes at Merion, and even the look of the bunkering, which was rather unique for an inland course.   Certainly I would have paid to have been a fly on the wall for that amazing conversation!!   :o

A later news article reported that Crump "persuaded" Colt to come down and look over Pine Valley and Colt ended up spending an entire week!  

Of course, as one sees, this was all communicated with and through Tillinghast at the time, who wrote the articles I just posted.

This is simply more evidence that all of these guys were in communications and collaboratively working together loosely on these projects, while still seeking outside advice from people in the industry they respected when those opportunities presented themselves.


***EDIT***

Careful readers will also note that George Crump's Committee was who busy designing Pine Valley prior to Colt's visit was called...ding, ding, ding...

The Construction Committee
 ;D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 10:35:22 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3705 on: July 31, 2009, 09:00:24 PM »
Mike, many, many posts ago, in answer to your question, I posted the following:

David,

Please show us how you've come to the conclusion that M+W's visit to inspect the proposed site for a day in June 1910 was for the "preliminary routing" and please show us anywhere it specifically states that?

Mike, did I tell you the one about the husband who went to the private investigator for proof that his wife was NOT cheating?    Well you are the husband.

There is ample evidence that M&W were involved with the routing during and after their June 1910 visit.  Remember, a routing had already been done by Barker when M&W were brought in to add their opinion.  In addition to inspecting the property and meeting with the site committee, M&W sent a letter which discussed the various advantageous features on the property, as well as its shortcomings and how to address them.  They even singled out a small section of specific property for Merion to add to the site, even though that section has not even been offered to HDC, and even though their are over 200 adjacent acres that were more easily and directly accessible.  The even provide a description of the lengths of holes they are contemplating, a list of hole lengths that bears close resemblance to what Merion ended up with.   Perhaps most importantly, they were there to figure out whether a first class course could be created on that land, and indicated that they could not know for certain without a contour mapWhy else would they need a contour map except to see whether the holes they envisioned would fit on the property?   And it is unreasonable to assume that Merion would have kept the contour map from M&W.    Plus, the Francis statement strongly suggested that there was at least a rough routing in place before November 1910, as does the little bit we have heard about the Cuyler letter, as does the specificity of the Boards November announcement.   The Board's next announcement said that experts were at work planning the course and that again points toward M&W and/or HHB.   The early Ag letters indicate that a course was already in place at the very beginning of Wilson's involvement, and that CBM was also involved at this time.  Lesley's report suggests that there was a course in place before the NGLA trip, yet Wilson's 1916 letter suggests that he "got a good start" with the layout at NGLA, suggesting he had not routed the existing course, but that someone else did.  And at NGLA, the looked at CBM's plans and there is a very good chance that this meant his plans for Merion. All of this and more strongly evidences that, beginning with their June site visit, M&W were involved with the preliminary routing.

Now you can and have gone to great lengths to dispute and nitpick every item, even going so far as to claim that Wilson was considered an expert at planning golf courses even though he admittedly was no such thing.  Yet taken together, Mike, this is pretty powerful evidence.  To not at least acknowledge the possibility that I have it right requires an affirmative act of intentional ignorance on your part, where you simply ignore or deny all facts that cut against you.
. . .

Since then . . . 
-- You finally realized that your understanding of what happened at NGLA makes no sense;
-- You argued that anyone would have known to add the land behind the clubhouse, which raises the question of why it was M&W who did it?
-- You further undermined the credibility of the supposed meeting minutes by reminding us of yet another portion where you and TEPaul have reversed course 180 degrees as to what the document says and means.
-- You went off on bizarre and unrelated tangents about Pine Valley and what was going on in 1913.   But while I enjoyed the Pine Valley articles, and suggest you start another thread, they have no applicability to the present discussion. 

As far as I can tell, it is exactly as I said above.  You can deny, dismiss, and nitpick the individual points all you like, but the evidence outlined above is pretty overwhelming, and these bizarre and tangential attempts to get at the individual points have done nothing to change this.   To refuse to acknowledge the possibility that it happened as I describe requires an affirmative act of intentional ignorance on your part, where you simply refuse to accept evidence that cuts against you.

And by the way, as to whom Tillinghast may have been referring in the June 8, 1913 article, I can think of a least one real expert who examined the land and offered suggestions to Crump during the early stages at Pine Valley.   Tillinghast would be a likely second.   

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3706 on: July 31, 2009, 09:40:48 PM »
David,

Honestly, I don't see your conclusions as based on anything but your wish that it were so.   Not a single contention is based on a factual reading of the actual evidence.  

When you say, "To refuse to acknowledge the possibility that it happened as I describe requires an affirmative act of intentional ignorance on your part, where you simply refuse to accept evidence that cuts against you.", I have to say that just because something is "possible" doesn't mean that there is any reason to believe it actually happened.

There is so much counter-evidence here that's been presented, and not a single person at that time who claimed M&W designed the course as to make that possibility a very, very remote one, that grows smaller with each new piece of evidence.

Not even H.J. Whigham claimed Macdonald designed the course.   Instead, he just listed it in a grouping of what he termed "Macdonald/Raynor" courses, and we know for a fact Macdonald and Whigham had involvement with helping Merion with valuable advice and suggestions, so from his perspective that was probably true.

But frankly, if the evidence for M&W designing the course instead of Hugh Wilson was actually so "overwhelming" as you describe, then why is it that the only persons here who seem even willing to still consider it are Tom MacWood and Patrick Mucci, one who says he "doesn't know" who designed Merion, and the other who simply states that he thinks M&W had "significantly substantive" input into the routing?

I might be wrong, but my impression here is that at this point, most have simply rejected your contentions out of hand based on the evidence that's been presented.   Of course, everyone, including me, is always willing to examine anything new that surfaces, but at this juncture, I think it's pretty much time to call it a day...
 


« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 09:49:56 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3707 on: July 31, 2009, 09:56:25 PM »
David,

Honestly, I don't see your conclusions as based on anything but your wish that it were so.   Not a single contention is based on a factual reading of the actual evidence.  

When you say, "To refuse to acknowledge the possibility that it happened as I describe requires an affirmative act of intentional ignorance on your part, where you simply refuse to accept evidence that cuts against you.", I have to say that just because something is "possible" doesn't mean that there is any reason to believe it actually happened.

There is so much counter-evidence here that's been presented, and not a single person at that time who claimed M&W designed the course as to make that possibility a very, very remote one, that grows smaller with each new piece of evidence.

Not even H.J. Whigham claimed Macdonald designed the course.   Instead, he just listed it in a grouping of what he termed "Macdonald/Raynor" courses, and we know for a fact Macdonald and Whigham had involvement with helping Merion with valuable advice and suggestions, so from his perspective that was probably true.

But frankly, if the evidence for M&W designing the course instead of Hugh Wilson was actually so "overwhelming" as you describe, then why is it that the only persons here who seem even willing to still consider it are Tom MacWood and Patrick Mucci, one who says he "doesn't know" who designed Merion, and the other who simply states that he thinks M&W had "significantly substantive" input into the routing?

I might be wrong, but my impression here is that at this point, most have simply rejected your contentions out of hand based on the evidence that's been presented.   Of course, everyone, including me, is always willing to examine anything new that surfaces, but at this juncture, I think it's pretty much time to call it a day...


Mike,  you confuse those dumb enough to post on these threads with "everybody."  I've gotten plenty of very positive feedback about my essay and research, but who would be dumb enough to face the wrath here?   I wouldn't wish that on anyone.   

I'd want to stop talking now if I were you too.  I mean how long can you go on trying to make the case that Hugh Wilson was an "expert" at designing golf courses in 1910?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3708 on: August 01, 2009, 09:42:51 AM »
David,

Hugh Wilson was not an expert at designing courses in 1910, and I've showed plenty of articles showing how the term was used at that time, including one showing a NY Times article calling Wilson and other low-handicap players "experts" and another Philly news article calling him an expert in early 1913, before any courses you give him credit for were open.   Ab Smith is called an expert as well and now here in the Pine Valley article we find Tillinghast referring to top level amateur golfers as not only perfectly capable of building a great golf course, but as "experts", as well.

This term had been used for years to describe the top players in the area.

As early as 1896, and timely to the Willie Campbell discussion, here we see that new course(s) at Belmont are going to be laid out by "Willie Campbell", although if memory serves Tom MacWood believes this is not the same Boston Willie Campbell.  I'm uncertain whether any of the courses ever came to fruition, but will dig a little deeper.

In either case, look at how the top women players were referred to, even then.   The top players were known as "experts", or even "golf experts", and there are many examples, as I've proven time and again.

I don't see how it supports your credibility to keep denying something people can read with their own eyes?

« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 09:48:23 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3709 on: August 01, 2009, 12:58:37 PM »
Mike,   You are confusing comments about golfing prowess with qualifications for designing golf courses.   So far as I know, you still haven't produced any timely articles where a decent club golfer who had never been involved in the the creation of a golf course was referred to as an "expert" much less one planning what was expected to be one of the best golf courses in the country.   

And even if you had, we must look at the speaker.  Merion was well aware of what an expert was when it came to creating golf courses, which is why they brought in Macdonald and Whigham in the first place, and why the Site Committee was touting M&W's involvement and opinions to the board (as well as Barker's.)   In their own eyes, Hugh Wilson was no expert at designing golf courses.

You can twist this stuff all you like, but the far more reasonable explanation is the obvious one.   Merion's announcement was NOT referring to Wilson and his committee.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3710 on: August 01, 2009, 02:29:08 PM »
David,

I would say the most reasonable explantion is that the Merion viewed it's top golfers as "expert" in the world of golf based primarily on their playing ability, but also their overall knowledge of the game. I believe most, if not all, of the committeemen were at the time, or eventually would be, members of the local, regional or national golf associations in some capacity. Thet were also leaders within the club on golf and green committees. Unless the announcement referred to "expert golf course architects", I think the most reasnoable assumption is that the term "expert" was used in reference to the committee's overall golf accumen in a manner designed to give the membership/audience comfort that the job was being done properly.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3711 on: August 01, 2009, 02:35:04 PM »
I hear Milton Bradley is coming out with a golf club atlas version of the game "Twister."  And the rule book extends to a nifty 110 pages!

C'mon David, as one of the biggest word twisters on here, you should probably go a little lighter on Mike C on that count.  How many times are you guys going to argue this? Mike found some examples of where golf experts might suggest that they design golf courses.  You have your own ideas.  Can you guys figure out a way to resolve that issue?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3712 on: August 01, 2009, 02:43:35 PM »

Mike,   You are confusing comments about golfing prowess with qualifications for designing golf courses.   So far as I know, you still haven't produced any timely articles where a decent club golfer who had never been involved in the the creation of a golf course was referred to as an "expert" much less one planning what was expected to be one of the best golf courses in the country.  

And even if you had, we must look at the speaker.  Merion was well aware of what an expert was when it came to creating golf courses, which is why they brought in Macdonald and Whigham in the first place, and why the Site Committee was touting M&W's involvement and opinions to the board (as well as Barker's.)   In their own eyes, Hugh Wilson was no expert at designing golf courses.

You can twist this stuff all you like, but the far more reasonable explanation is the obvious one.   Merion's announcement was NOT referring to Wilson and his committee.  


David,

This is really very, very simple.   Let me try one last time.

In the very early decades of golf in America, those who were proficient at the game were called "experts", or sometimes "golf experts", or sometimes "expert golfers".

There were very few of them, because the game was new in this country and it was a hard game.

Much like the foreign pros like Willie Campbell, because of their proficiency at striking a ball with a club it was assumed they also knew much more about the game than they often did, and were given tasks related to course creation, agronomy, construction, and course maintenance.   Call it the "osmosis theory" of golf expertise.  In the case of pros, they were also given the manual labor job of clubmaking, and often did the physical labor on the course themselves.

Hugh Wilson was one of those early non-professional "experts".

As early as 1898 he played at Belmont, the forerunner to Aronimink, and there he won the first ever Club Championship at the age of 18.  He was on club committees, despite his young age.   Dr. Toulmin was cited as being one of three men who designed Belmont's first course.

He was the number one man on their golf team, and his handicap at the time was listed as scratch.   The next best player in the club was an 8.  The next best was 14

He held the course record.

He went to Princeton where he played as number one man on the golf team when Ivy League golf was huge and where collegiates would play against top amateurs like Travis, Macdonald, and others in special tournaments.

He was on the Green Committee for the Princeton Golf Club when they were opening their new Willie Dunn designed course.

He was listed in the New York Times as one of the 40 best "experts" out of over 2500 ranked players in the Metropolitan NY Section, one stroke behind vaunted Devereux Emmett, and a mere four strokes behind amateur champion CB Macdonald.

At Merion, there were over 300 golf members in a club that was primarily based on Cricket and where other games like lawn tennis were played.

All in all, there were probably 500 or so members of the club.

Of those, a select committee of 5 of the top 6 expert golfers in the club were picked for their knowledge of the game to have responsibility for the creation of their new golf course.

The odds of being one of those men was 1 in over 300 of the golf membership, and 1 in roughly 500 of the total membership.

As far as the game of golf, these men were the best and the brightest at Merion.   The odds of Merion just happening by coincidence to pick 5 of the top 6 men by handicap for this committee are infinitessimal and to suggest it is ludicrous.    

It was purposeful, because these men were viewed within the club as experts at the game of golf.  They all had single digit handicaps when the best handicap in the entire Philadelphia District was a 4.    Wilson and Griscom were 6's.  All but Francis had played golf in the District since the very beginning of golf in the city 15 years prior.  Rodman Griscom had been the first Green Committee Chairman at Merion when they built their first course in 1895.

Once the land for the new golf course was secured, and purchased by Lloyd in December, Merion sent out a letter to all 500 or so members informing them of a Dues Increase.    This letter went to every member of Merion, whether they were there strictly for Cricket, for Tennis, for Lawn Bowling, or just for social niceties.

Many of the people who received this letter probably even objected to the need for a new golf course, and this costly expense.   It's fair to say that a number of them probably knew very little about the game.   Even among the rank and file club member who played golf, those who played it with expertise like Hugh Wilson and Rodman Griscom might as well have been from the moon in comparison to them, as the average scores those days were horrific.

This is not rocket science.   This is what it was and the way it was.  

I'm done mincing words here, David.   You can believe what you want to believe.  

I'm tired of arguing with you, and we're going to have to agree to disagree.

You have absolutely no evidence to dismiss Hugh Wilson from his rightful authorship of the Merion East course, and I'm happy to leave it at that.

I'm quite sure Merion Golf Club is as well.

Have a nice day.















« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 03:03:19 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3713 on: August 01, 2009, 04:39:29 PM »
David,

I would say the most reasonable explantion is that the Merion viewed it's top golfers as "expert" in the world of golf based primarily on their playing ability, but also their overall knowledge of the game. I believe most, if not all, of the committeemen were at the time, or eventually would be, members of the local, regional or national golf associations in some capacity. Thet were also leaders within the club on golf and green committees. Unless the announcement referred to "expert golf course architects", I think the most reasnoable assumption is that the term "expert" was used in reference to the committee's overall golf accumen in a manner designed to give the membership/audience comfort that the job was being done properly.

Jim,  interesting theory, but isn't this the third or fourth theory on how expert at planning courses didnt really mean expert at planning courses?
1.  They were good club-level golfers, therefore they were experts at planning courses.
2.  In 1901 Wilson was in the top 25% of rated amateur golfers in the Met therefore he was an expert at planning courses in 1910-1911.
3.  They were not experts at planning courses, but Merion's board was lying to the members to build up their expectations.
4.  They knew more about the game than most at their clubs, and would stay involved with golf and golf governance for years to come, so they were experts at planning courses.  

This last reason may explain why they were appointed to be on the Construction Committee, but it does not qualify them as experts at designing courses, or imply that Merion would have called them that in 1910-1911.  

Instead of stretching and straining for all these tenuous answers so we can reach the desired conclusion, perhaps we ought to consider the answer that is most obvious and straightforward.   When Merion's board announced: "experts are at work preparing plans for a Golf Course that would rank in length, soil, and variety of hazards with the best in the country"  it is extremely unlikely that they were referring to Wilson and his Committee, because Wilson and his Committee were not experts at planning courses.  I

In fact, because TEPaul and Wayne have refused to tell us when this was announced, we do not even know if Wilson and his Committee had even been appointed to do anything yet!

C'mon David, as one of the biggest word twisters on here, you should probably go a little lighter on Mike C on that count.  How many times are you guys going to argue this? Mike found some examples of where golf experts might suggest that they design golf courses.  You have your own ideas.  Can you guys figure out a way to resolve that issue?

Jeff,

Setting aside your insults about word parsing that you often generally alledge but never specifically identify, I disagree with your view that Mike has produced any such examples.   I researched this fairly extensively and I found no examples where anyone was referred to as an expert at planning courses simply because they were a good club-level player.   They were all either professionals, or had been involved in designing and/or laying out golf courses prior.   Mike's examples are no exceptions.  Notice he leaves the dates off of all of them?  It is because they were all 2-3 years later, after these guys had much more experience.  Wilson had already laid out Merion, studied in Europe, added finishing touches to Merion East, and had planned Merion West before these articles.  According to Mike himself, A.B. Smith planned substantial changes to HV in 1909.  

As for the 1901 Handicap listing, it is this kind of evidence that makes my case for me.  Everyone with a 10 handicap and below was called an expert-- about 25% of all rated.  Were they all therefore experts at planning courses?  Of course not.  It has nothing to do with their expertise at planning courses.

But again,  why go to such great lengths?   There is a simple and obvious answer, and those are almost always the correct answer.   It is very unlikely they were referring to Wilson.  It is very likely they were referring to real experts.  

Besides.  If Wilson was the expert planning the course, then why wasnt that ever reported or mentioned.  As I recall, Wilson never even came up until after his trip which was well after the cuorse had been initially planned and built.   Correct me if I am wrong.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3714 on: August 01, 2009, 04:57:13 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Your comparison of Hugh Wilson's expertise in 1910 to Willie Campbell's in 1894 is laughable.   In 1894 Campbell had planned and laid out at least four courses in Scotland and England, had been a contender for years in the real Open Championship, had been the professional at Prestwick and other great courses. (Not sure if he was the greenskeeper as well.)  He was over 30 strokes better than the top amateurs in Boston!   In comparison, in 1910 Hugh Wilson was a good but not great club level player with no design experience.  

That this is your argument ought to tell everyone something about its merits.

And Mike, you've gone from saying that Toulmin was on the green committee at Belmont at the time the course was laid out to now saying that he designed the course.   Could you please post your proof that he was one of the designers of Belmont?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 05:11:52 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3715 on: August 01, 2009, 05:28:51 PM »
If anyone wants to know the dates of any article please let me know or just look in the back pages of this thread where they've all been identified prior.

The one calling Hugh Wilson an expert is from May 1913, when according to David's nonsense, he had exactly zero design expereience on any course that was open.

Hell' even good old Robert Lesley was an "expert" and he was neither a pro nor did he design any courses.

It is going to be difficult for me to sit back silently on this thread and watch David continue to spin fiction and flat out fabricate "facts", but I've had enough of arguing inanities and I trust that most of you can smell unadulterated bullshit, even across the Internet.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3716 on: August 01, 2009, 05:35:21 PM »
If anyone wants to know the dates of any article please let me know or just look in the back pages of this thread where they've all been identified prior.

The one calling Hugh Wilson an expert is from May 1913, when according to David's nonsense, he had exactly zero design expereience on any course that was open.

How disengenuous can you be?   This is the kind of disinginuity that screams out that you will say anything.  The date the courses opened has nothing to do with whether he was an expert.  He had experience whether the courses were opened or not!   Plus remember those articles you posted about Merion West before it was even opened from this same time period, in your doomed quest to prove that I was wrong about the study trip or something?  I believe there had even been a plan of the West Course in the Philadelphia Inquirer by this date.

Quote
Hell' even good old Robert Lesley was an "expert" and he was neither a pro nor did he design any courses.

Only if you misread the article.

Quote
It is going to be difficult for me to sit back silently on this thread and watch David continue to spin fiction and flat out fabricate "facts", but I've had enough of arguing inanities and I trust that most of you can smell unadulterated bullshit, even across the Internet.

So much for the Mike who was the model of proper behavior.  Phillip, where are you when we need you?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 05:39:40 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3717 on: August 01, 2009, 05:54:12 PM »
What have we learned from this thread?

Well for me, I now know what disengenuous (and its various forms) mean much more clearly!  At least, I know an allegation of being disengenuous when I see one!

David,

My guess is that Mike C will accept your simple explanation about the same time you accept the simple explanation for the words in the April 19 minutes (i.e., they went to NGLA, planned several layouts, etc).  Now, I can see you accepting that as proof that CBM was involved heavily, and he was.  Its still a question of interpretation as to how much credit he should get. I just don't see how side arguments about Willie Campbell (of possible soup fame? :P), Cobb's Creek, and who knows what else does anything except waste band width.  All the parsing of words means absolutely nothing, even if you argue for another 100 pages.

(Side bar - I wonder if any participant ever uttered something like "We'll elect a black man President before these guys solve the Merion thing!"  How much of a genius would he look like now, eh?) :D

And, being an attorney, I guess I figured you were used to insults from the general public!  Sorry if mine was the last straw...... ::)  But one last thing.....whenever I have played golf with gca.com members, it often comes up that you are one of the most argumentative participants here.  I never thought that was true, but 110 pages in, I am beginning to come around to their way of thinking!

Enjoy the weekend all!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 06:00:58 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3718 on: August 01, 2009, 06:40:10 PM »
Jeff,  I am getting used to your attempts at insults, but they are still inappropriate.   I doubt anyone you have golfed with knows anything more about me than you do.

. . .
My guess is that Mike C will accept your simple explanation about the same time you accept the simple explanation for the words in the April 19 minutes (i.e., they went to NGLA, planned several layouts, etc) . . .

The critical difference is that I am not hiding the "experts at work" announcement.  In fact I sent it to Wayne shortly after my paper was posted.  In contrast, the April 19 minutes are being hidden from me, and not even Mike knows what they say for sure.   So his explanation is far from simple and my acceptance is more than he or you can reasonably ask.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 06:42:49 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3719 on: August 01, 2009, 08:00:46 PM »
Horace Hutchinson, amateur, about Aberdovey Golf Club:

"The original members were not all experts in the noble game; one official, who shall be nameless, somewhat offended the traditions of Golf by calling the clubs alternately instruments and implements; whilst a member of the Committee was heard to assert that the game would be a good one if there were no holes and no Hazards."

So he indicates clearly that an expert would normally have some architectural knowledge.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3720 on: August 01, 2009, 09:52:19 PM »

George Bahto in his wonderful book, "The Evangelist of Golf"*, describes the routing process at NGLA as follows;

*as an aside, if you don't own this book, which is edited by our own Gib Papazian, you should go stop reading right now, exit out of this site, and just buy the book!  ;D  

Agreed


http://www.amazon.com/Evangelist-Golf-Story-Charles-MacDonald/dp/1886947201/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1248959823&sr=8-1

For those of you who already have the book, please open it and read along beginning on page 64;


"Macdonald and company purchased the tract in November of 1907*..." 

(*My Note - Macdonald secured an unspecified 205 acres of land out of the 400+ available in December of 1906, and it was noted at the time that he and his committee would be spending the next 3 months trying to lay out the course on the land (i.e. routing) followed by 2 months building plasticene, scale models of the holes prior to beginning construction.   Macdonald originally believed he would need approximately 110 acres for golf, but ended up using approximately 150-170 acres...Now, back to George's book.  ;) )

"C.B. next asked Henry Whigham and Walter Travis, each golf champions and course architects in their own right, to assist him in implementing his plan.   Though Travis soon bowed out of the project, C.B. and Whigham continued on with the assistance of Joseph P. Knapp.   Also closely involved were banker James Stillman, Devereux Emmett....and a few others"

"Using Raynor's survey maps and Macdonald's personal drawings as a guide, they forged ahead."

Mike,

You left out an important facet.
Macdonald gave Raynor his surveyor's maps of the holes he liked from Scotland and England and told Raynor that he wanted those holes laid out faithfully to those maps.  CBM had preconceived notions of the holes HE wanted crafted onto that site, he wasn't just stumbling around discovering holes.  He knew the holes he wanted and sited them to best utilize their assets/attributes.


"Once cleared, the site was visually stirking.   Knolls, hills, and basins furnished the topography.   They also found natural ponds and uncovered a portion of Sebonac Creek which could be used for water hazards."

"Macdonald and company located fairly natural sites for a Redan and Eden, as well as a site for an Alps, requiring only a slight modification.   The location for a Sahara hole was selected, as well as spots for a few original Macdonald creations suggested by the terrain.   The routing of the course was beginning to take form, and although Macdonald later claimed the majority of the holes were on natural sites, in reality he manipulated a huge amount of soil."

"A number of strategic and aesthetic innovations took place at National, yet often overlooked is the seminal influence Macdonald and Raynor had on early course construction.   Macdonald was not afraid to move massive amounts of earth in order to achieve a desired artistic effect, and Raynor had the engineering skills to blend it all together."

"Macdonald eventually admitted to importing 10,000 truckloads of soil to recontour and sculpt areas to fit his diagrams.   A meticulous planner, Macdonald knew precisely what he was trying to achieve, and if he could not find an appropriate site, one would just have to be created!   It is true that natural sites were located for his Redan and Eden, but to build other replications to his exacting specifications required extensive movement and importing of soil.  Heavily influenced by this philosophy, Seth Raynor - and later Charles Banks - would later take earthmoving to new dimensions."

Mike, I'd disagree with a portion of that passage.
I believe that the 10,000 LOADS of soil, including manure were for topdressing, not construction, purposes.
There was ample soil/dirt on site to craft the manufactured features.


I have to ask...

Does this sound like a man who would create a plan for a golf course based on a one day visit to inspect the property in June 1910, followed by another site visit to help pick the best of five plans 10 months later?

Yes, absolutely.

You now want to take and compare the isolated, undeveloped, unsurveyed land in Southampton and compare it to the well established, surveyed, developed farmland in suburban Philadelphia.

Another absurd leap on your part in an attempt to disavow CBM.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3721 on: August 01, 2009, 10:01:18 PM »
David,

If Macdonald fit the holes to the existing land at NGLA, why the requirement to move so much earth to create many of the key features they wanted?


Mike,  WHY do you constantly misrepresent/mis-state the facts and make up your own facts to support your predetermined position ?

It's intellectually dishonest.

The 10,000 loads of soil/manure were for TOPDRESSING, NOT CONSTRUCTION.

Macdonald says so in his own words.

The land was "impoverished"   


I have no doubt that M+W, after exhaustively spending several dedicated days on horseback  riding around the property found locations for key features of some of the holes they had in mind, but why if things were so crystalline do you think they spent another three months on the ground planning and staking out the course before beginning construction?   

Mike, if you'd read "Scotland's Gift" without rose colored glasses, you'd KNOW the answer.


Isn't that today what we think of largely as the design process, which often leads to routing changes and other revisions?

For instance, early reports talked about Macdonald wanting to locate his "short" hole on a promontory on the edge of Bulls Head Bay, which we know never happened.   

Could you cite that report for me ?


In any case, where does any evidence exist pointing to M+W's involvement at Merion in anything even remotely resembling this fairly gigantic planning effort?

That you would compare the sites at Merion to Southampton, and their respective needs, design wise, is mind boggling.

Once again your desperation is clearly showing.



Phil_the_Author

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3722 on: August 02, 2009, 02:40:26 AM »
David asks,

"So much for the Mike who was the model of proper behavior.  Phillip, where are you when we need you?"

Mike, This IS uncalled for: "It is going to be difficult for me to sit back silently on this thread and watch David continue to spin fiction and flat out fabricate "facts", but I've had enough of arguing inanities and I trust that most of you can smell unadulterated bullshit, even across the Internet."

Its time to let it go and for YOU to be the Bigger man. This I KNOW you can be! Do what you say will be difficult... sit back and don't post anymore on this thread or any other where A Merion argument begins... You will find that a wolf howling at the moon stops when the moon goes away...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3723 on: August 02, 2009, 11:52:50 AM »
Phillip Young,

I think it's unreasonable to ask David to abandon his interests/premise/white paper/opinion piece because of the volatility of the subject matter.

Just because a subject is controversial doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.

While the subject seems to cause inflamatory responses, from all sides, that shouldn't place it on the "strictly taboo" list.

While some, including David, have gone to extremes, let's not dismiss the topic due to the ambient noise and distractions.

I don't know the details of what transpired in the creation of Merion, but, I've learned a good deal about them and I'd like to know more.

I understand David's frustration.
His "opinion piece" was attacked BEFORE it was published, and it went downhill once he presented it.               

Not to speak for David, but, if errors in his treatise exist, and they're brought to light and sufficiently documented, I'm sure he'll edit his Opinion Piece to account for new and correcting information.

David has put in an inordinate amount of time reseaching and writing about his Opinion Piece.
To tell him to cease and desist on this thread or any discussion about Merion is WRONG on your part.

Would you abide by that request regarding Tillinghast ?

Let's be fair to ALL parties and let the earnest research and discussions continue.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3724 on: August 02, 2009, 12:04:32 PM »
I understand both David's frustration AND your call to let the earnest research continue.

But I agree with Phil that as long as this thread contains little but sniping, parsing, etc. that it ought to cease and desist.

What earnest research has been on this thread lately, comparable to finding and posting little known documents on the Campbell thread, for instance?  There hasn't been much new here for the last 55 pages or so.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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