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Phil_the_Author

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3300 on: July 23, 2009, 10:57:04 AM »
Tom,

Jeff is quite correct, Tom and others deleted some posts from the Merion threads at the height of the first round of arguments. On today's website one can only EDIT posts but on the old one posts were able to be deleted. In fact, if you look through the old threads (more than one remember) on Merion, David and Tom had a bit of a runnning argument on exactly why he had chosen to delete some posts, to the extent that their were comments that the one-time leading thread for number of posts had now gone back to being #2!

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3301 on: July 23, 2009, 11:12:39 AM »
Phil
You are absolutley right there were posts deleted from a Merion thread, but that was last year and a different thread. This thread was started in April of this year and there is no evidence any posts were removed. Once the new format went into effect I don't believe posts can be removed.

Rich Goodale

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3302 on: July 23, 2009, 12:52:21 PM »
Tom

You do need to calm down and think about what the word "altering" means in relation to documents.  I do not think that even you or Dave would accuse Tom of actually altering any of Merion's documents if you really understood the meaning of the word and/or knew Tom.

As to my OTM (and other) articles that you have sometimes kindly cited in some of your research, please let me know where you think I was "misleading and historically inaccurate."  One only learns if one is made aware of specifics rather than broad generalities.

Thanks in advance.

Rich

Rich
I'm perfectly calm. Everyone knows what altered means in this case. The transcibed versions were altered to support their case. I suppose they thought they could get away with it since they were hording the original documents. Not only does not reflect well on them, it doesn't reflect well on Merion, or anyone who defends such behavior.

Regarding my essay I thought about using this quote of yours from your OTM article to illustrate how people exaggerate OTM's resume, but I decided against it.

"Most of us know most of these already, but just listing the names of some of the most revered trips off the tongue so smoothly that I can't resist writing them together: Dornoch, Machrihanish, Elie, County Down, New Course, Portrush, Wallasey, Lahinch, Muirfield, Rosapenna, and Nairn."

The acknowledgment was for your Arch Simpson article, which was very good..

Tom, you cannot be calm if you really believe that "Everyone knows what altered means in this case."  This is not only untrue, it is stupid.  There are very many people on this site who do not know what you think they know.  Please stop Rumsfelding all of us with the same brush..... ::)

As for your quote on my OTM article, I'll stand by what I wrote, particularly in the context, which you did not quote.  Each of those courses was designed or remodelled at some point in their life by Old Tom Morris, as far I know know, and my editor at Golf Course Architecture magazine, who is a very good editor and highly knowledgeable about GCA, let it pass.   So what do you know differently?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3303 on: July 23, 2009, 01:19:14 PM »
Rich
Way to go - blame your gross distortion on your editor.

No one can possibly be that naive to believe that taking an entire phrase out of a letter is the result of transcription error, especially when that phrase is particularly unhelpful to the person doing the transcribing's theory. That is not misquoting.

Don't worry I'm very calm - I'm used to your cranky contrarian act.


Rich Goodale

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3304 on: July 23, 2009, 01:32:38 PM »
Tom

Please tell me about my "gross distortion" and please put it in the context of the whole paragraph in that article I wrote.  That would be both honest and polite, and once you do so I might be able to respond to whatever arguments you might have with what I wrote.

Rich

PS--you still are unable to understand what it means to alter a document?  Have you ever actually viewed an historical document and held it in your hand?  If you have not, let me inform you that it is very different to reading a copy or a transcription of any such document, and original documents can be "altered" only by a skilled forger, which I can assure you, Tom Paul is not.  Maybe you have more experience in such things than he or I? ;)


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3305 on: July 23, 2009, 03:25:44 PM »
Jeff Brauer,  

There is great irony in you implying that TM and I ought to be concerned about "slander" (I think you mean "libel" which is written, as compared to "slander" which is spoken.)  TEPaul has repeatedly defamed me and TM, and many of his lies have been libel per se.  For god's sake, the man falsely and repeatedly accused me of being involved in a capital crime and of giving up the practice of law to avoid disciplinary action!   I would be hard pressed to come up with a more clear cut case libel per se than that!   I am shocked and dismayed that he was ever allowed to return to the website after the garbage spewed on these pages.  In contrast, so far as I know, TM and myself have not only tried to stick to the facts, we've tried to stick to the facts relevant to our discussion.   And there is nothing actionable about point out someone's repeated pattern of concealing, misunderstanding, and misrepresenting those facts.    

________________________________________________

Rich Goodale,

Whatever term you choose or prefer, key content from the source material seems to have been altered, changed, misrepresented, deleted, whatever.  And TEPaul has offered no viable explanation.   But at this point it doesn't matter to me whether he did this on purpose or whether it has all been accidental, with all the "mistakes" just happening to come out in TEPaul's favor.   The point is, we cannot rely on what TEPaul and Wayne have told us about the source material,  we need to see it ourselves.    This would be true if it were you or me making claims about material that is being concealed but, admittedly, it is even more so given TEPaul and Wayne's proven track record of misunderstanding, misrepresenting, and concealing key elements of the source material.

And the problem will not work itself out so long as the source material is being concealed.  Why else would they be concealing it?

_______________________________________

To All:

I am a bit perplexed by TEPaul's latest effort to sweep all of his past behavior under the rug, and even more perplexed with Ran's apparent acquiescence to TEPaul's latest plan to shut up those that disagree with him.   Keep in mind that TEPaul and Wayne hold the key to ending all of this nonsense.  They are the ones who have tried for the past year or so to use the old records to attack to bolster their position and to try to attack me, my essay, and everyone else who might disagree with them.    They are the ones who have given us many different versions of what is supposed to be a direct transcription of the source material.  They are the ones who keep changing the dates and what things say and don't say (the Cuyler letters for example.)   They are the ones who have demanded we accept their representations as fact and have refused to have their arguments vetted or verified.    

In short, they are the ones who have played and continue to play games with the source material, and the ones responsible for where we are today.   And they are the ones who can stop the nonsense by allowing us to vet and verify their arguments.  And the sooner they stop playing games, the sooner we can move on to something more positive and interesting. , like Part II of my essay and a detailed discussion of the lasting impact M&W had on the golf course.  

As for my part, I am trying to keep things positive and moving forward, and to generally ignore TEPaul,  but I will continue to respond when necessary, such as my post above, where I countered his ridiculous yet repeated claims that I should have gone to Merion, despite his and Wayne's tireless efforts to convince me that Merion wanted nothing to do with me.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 03:52:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rich Goodale

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3306 on: July 23, 2009, 04:03:24 PM »
Dave

Whatever source material exists, exists.  I cannot imagine how it could possible have been altered, deleted or changed.  Unless you can explain to me exactly what you mean by those verbs and why you have used them, please stop using them.  Now I can agree that maybe some of the "source material" has been "misrepresented" or even misinterpreted by some (if not all) of the major contributors to this thread, but that is what historical research cat fights are all about, isn't it?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3307 on: July 23, 2009, 04:18:13 PM »
Dave

Whatever source material exists, exists.  I cannot imagine how it could possible have been altered, deleted or changed.  Unless you can explain to me exactly what you mean by those verbs and why you have used them, please stop using them.  Now I can agree that maybe some of the "source material" has been "misrepresented" or even misinterpreted by some (if not all) of the major contributors to this thread, but that is what historical research cat fights are all about, isn't it?

Rich, as I explained, key content (meaning what the source material supposedly says) has been altered, changed, misrepresented, deleted, whatever.   What we are being told it says is obviously different than what it says.   If we all had access to the material, this might work itself out, but we don't, and those with it will not back up their claims by producing it.    

And NO, historical research is not about hording source material, refusing to back up one's claims, or misrepresenting the content of that source material.   These are all counterproductive to historical research and ought to be cried down by us all, you included.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:21:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3308 on: July 23, 2009, 04:19:10 PM »
This is beyond pathetic...consider me gone.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3309 on: July 23, 2009, 04:34:05 PM »
Mike
I take it you didn't find TEP's quote prior to yours.

TEPaul

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3310 on: July 23, 2009, 04:37:35 PM »
"As for my part, I am trying to keep things positive and moving forward, and to generally ignore TEPaul,  but I will continue to respond when necessary, such as my post above, where I countered his ridiculous yet repeated claims that I should have gone to Merion, despite his and Wayne's tireless efforts to convince me that Merion wanted nothing to do with me."




You won't need to ignore me Moriarty; as of now and going forward I don't want a damn thing to do with any website or anything else that you're a part of. And after what MacWood said yesterday and today about me altering documents deliberately and assigning a specific motive to me for doing that I don't want anything to do with a website or anything else he's a part of either.

This website was once good but as long as you two are on it I don't want to be. As far as I'm concerned with you two on it this website can go to hell and if you stay on it I'm quite sure it will.

You two should have gone to Merion FIRST to try to establish a working relationship with them BEFORE you began all this six and a half years ago. But you made the choice not to do it that way; you decided to approach it and its members and friends adverserially; we never suggested that, quite the opposite. I know you two have been trying to establish a relationship with them recently, I know every single thing about it. After what you two have done on this website with Merion, a member and its friends doesn't at least a modicum of commonsense tell you how that's probably going to go now? Do you two really think just because you express an interest in golf architecture or the history of a club like a Merion that anybody and everybody is going to welcome you with open arms particularly after the way you've treated this club's actual history and a member and friends? If you do apparently you two understand less about human nature than you understand about how to effectively research and write about a subject.

You said you want to learn the history of Merion and you're just after the truth. That's total and transparent bullshit and everyone here in Philadelphia saw through that immediately! We all know exactly why you two did this. Look at MacWood and how totally unclever he is when he asked Kirk Gill if he was on here during that Crump fiasco. That's probably the only reason he started this Merion fiiasco too. You two are a couple of outsiders looking in with no manners and no commonsense at all who for some God-damned reason think doors should open for you no matter how rude and arrogant you are if you just tell these clubs you're passionate about golf architecture or their architectural histories. What you don't seem to know about clubs like these is they actually welcome ousiders pretty readilly but they tend to never suspend what they consider manners and commonsense in the process. If you want to get in those kinds of doors you pretty much have to show them first you're interested in understanding them and the way they feel about things. Anybody can do that if they just use commonsense but you two don't seem to see it that way. Too bad for you then.

I'm going back where I came from, to a lot of clubs and members and associations within golf all over the place I know and have trusted and who've known and trusted me over many many years due to some really valuable shared experiences just about over a pretty good lifetime. This ten years on Golfclubatlas has been quite an experience for me, good in the beginning, and frankly a pretty bad and disappointing one whenever you two were around.

I'd consider reregistering on here at some point but not until the two of you either completely change your ways and your attitudes or are no longer a part of this website.  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:44:47 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3311 on: July 23, 2009, 04:38:48 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Who really gives a damn?  And do you have a fucking point?



« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:40:31 PM by EnoughsEnuff »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3312 on: July 23, 2009, 04:40:15 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Who really gives a damn?  And do you have a fucking point?

Anything from the MCC minutes I posted here were transcribed from Tom Paul's earlier posts, whether on this thread or somewhere else.



EnoughsEnuff has now offically lost it!   ;D

Well said sir.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3313 on: July 23, 2009, 04:42:22 PM »
The point is if you didn't get it from this site someone else gave it to you - Wayne or TEP.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3314 on: July 23, 2009, 04:42:50 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Who really gives a damn?  And do you have a fucking point?

Anything from the MCC minutes I posted here were transcribed from Tom Paul's earlier posts, whether on this thread or somewhere else.



EnoughsEnuff has now offically lost it!   ;D

Well said sir.

But he set a new personal record for shortest quit ever!  Like magic, "he was out of here" but now he is back.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3315 on: July 23, 2009, 04:44:25 PM »
Tom Paul,

This is about the search for the truth of what happened at Merion about as much as Lee Harvey Oswald was just interested in a better view in Dallas.

Later, all...

 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3316 on: July 23, 2009, 05:00:24 PM »
Tom Paul,

This is about the search for the truth of what happened at Merion about as much as Lee Harvey Oswald was just interested in a better view in Dallas.

Later, all...

 

Mike
Thats a strange analogy. Surely you can come up with a more apropos comparison, where one side shares their information and the other side hides and distorts their information.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3317 on: July 23, 2009, 05:35:28 PM »
98 pages and counting...what's the record for most pages of any thread?  What's in second?  It's probly 30 pages behind!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion
« Reply #3318 on: July 23, 2009, 05:45:46 PM »
Whoops.  No response meant or necessary.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 05:48:32 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3319 on: July 23, 2009, 05:50:04 PM »
RE: editing, who is it who changed the name of the thread to Meroin from Merion? And then, apparently back?  At this point, I think the feds ought to be battling the influx of Meroin deaths in this country!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3320 on: July 23, 2009, 07:01:34 PM »
Jeff,
Usually the only person who can edit the title is the original poster. I would guess that moderators also can adjust.

John Moore II

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3321 on: July 24, 2009, 07:23:19 AM »
So, we're up to 98 pages and 3400+ responses, has anything been solved? Do we have any more of a concensus opinion on the designers and such of said named course than we had before? I would hope so, but given the few pages I've read, I think nothing has been solved and the issue has become even more polarizing. Correct?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3322 on: July 24, 2009, 07:40:30 AM »
Nothing has been solved yet, but I do think a lot of good information has come out that gives a better idea of what Wilson was actually charged with doing, that is overseeing construction. Its pretty clear Wilson design activities did not begin until after the course was laid out and seeded, and after he returned from the UK. Hopefully we will get to see the April 1911 report, that Wayne, TEP and Mike are currently hiding, and I'm confident it will bring even more clarity. That being said, its possible the complete story will never be known, but we won't stop trying.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 10:41:50 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3323 on: July 24, 2009, 10:29:27 AM »
I'm delighted to see above Tom MacWood's concise and representative analysis and opinion of Merion East's early architectural history and the function of its attributed architect, Hugh Wilson. I told him (asked him if he would mind, actually) if I took his concise and representative analysis and his explanation of his unique approach to an important architectural subject to Merion's historians and administration and perhaps suggested it be made a part of their archives as an example of how not to research and analyze important American architecture and architects. I even suggested I would be glad to make a number of copies of that summation of his analysis and opinion after six and a half years and pass it out at the upcoming Walker Cup to parties interested in architectural research and the histories of important clubs and courses such as Merion East.

After all he put it on a world wide architectural Internet website so he must believe in it. I want to do my part to disseminate diverse and alternative analyses and opinion for as many as possible to consider as an althernative approach to what a number of us strongly disagree with in approach and analysis.

I can't think of anything fairer and more appropriate than that to foster discussion and opinion outside Golfclubatlas.com, can you?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3324 on: July 24, 2009, 10:34:33 AM »
In another shameless attempt to get this over 100 pages as a joke...

But I have to ask TMac - why write that nothing has been solved and then present an opinion as "agreed upon" that very few actually do agree upon?  I know at least three people here who don't think its pretty clear that Wilson was only involved AFTER seeding......hmm, construction starts April 1911, course seeded late 1911, committee appointed Jan 1911. 

Again, hmmmm, other than in the word parsed world you live in.  Has anyone declared Columbus Ohio a truth free and logic free zone that I didn't hear about?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach