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Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2125 on: July 02, 2009, 01:32:36 PM »
I'm on my way to the golf course, I'll pick this up later.  In the meantime, I'd like to clarify two points.

One, are there any documents supporting the specifics of optioning (whatever it means) of the properties that comprised the 338 acre tract?

Two, there was a letter Mike posted a while ago that I've reposted below, that was dated November 15, 1910.  It referred to an accompanying circular letter.  Was the attached circular letter the Allen Evans letter, also dated November 15, 1910, to MCC members that I have posted second and third below.  Am I reading it correctly, that MCC was soliciting its members to buy HDC stock in the first letter to consummate the purchase of the land they'd optioned in the 338 acre tract and to develop the roads etc., and then soliciting the members to buy MCC bonds in the second letter to buy the land from HDC and develop the course?












Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2126 on: July 02, 2009, 02:15:51 PM »
While we're doing some housecleaning and trying to determine our factual basis for further discussion, I wanted to add a few things;

1) ***CORRECTION*** -  I had originally contended that HH Barker's Columbia Country Club opened in 1911 based on their website.   Tom MacWood provided me with evidence last night that the course was ready for opening right after a final tournament on the old course on 9/29/1910.

2) Bryan, I have no further documentation on the "optioning" of land beyond that described in the news articles but do recall reading something here that the only land HDC owned outright is Johnson Farm and that the rest had options.   That being said, I have many of the same questions as you on the nature of the transactions...hell, I'm not even sure what it meant legally to "secure" land at that time.   Would it be the same or different than an "option", which Tom Paul explained yesterday?

3) The original article from January 1911 that I posted was dark and hard to read.   I've brightened and blown it up a bit.

I wonder where they were going to locate the lawn tennis courts as well as the winter skating rink?


Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2127 on: July 02, 2009, 02:45:24 PM »
More housecleaning....

The following was the subscription form attached to the November 15th Lloyd letter;



Following again is the July 1, 1910 Site Committee report which describes Connell's "Syndicate" holdings.   Would that syndicate be PALCO?




If I'm understanding this right, Connell with the PALCO syndicate made the initial informal offer in July 1910.   At the time they had roughly 300 acres but only about half (the 140 acre Johnson Farm?) was owned outright.   It is clear at this time they do not have the Dallas Estate under option.

Of those holdings, page 2 of the Site Commitee report states that Merion will probably require almost 120 acres for the golf course.

Sometime afterwards, HDC was formed.

In October, the Dallas Estate was purchased by HDC.

In early November, Lloyd, Atterbury, and others of the HDC syndicate purchased the whole shebang of the now 338 acres from PALCO under the corporate title of HDC.   At that time, as part of the deal, Merion "secured" 117 acres for $85,000, whatever that means.  ***EDIT*** I just re-read Lloyd's HDC stock offering letter of November 15th, 1910 and in it he says "There will be acquired by the company five tracts of land, aggregating approximately 338 acres...", which indicates to me that it hadn't happened yet.

In December, Lloyd took title of 161 acres under his own name (and his wife) based on Cuyler's advice. ***EDIT*** I'm trying to find out from Tom Paul whether he took title under his own name for HDC, or for Merion.  

In April 1911, Merion's Board approved an additional purchase of 3 acres at $7,500.   ***EDIT*** They also approved the land swap of "land ALREADY PURCHASED for land ADJOINING".  

In May 1911, Merion leased 3 acres of railroad land adjacent to the clubhouse on a perpetual lease of $1 per year.

In July 1911, Merion purchased 120.01 acres for $85,000


Does that sound correct?


p.s. to Bryan - Tom Paul does not believe the 3 acres approved for purchase in April 1911 is the railroad land and believes he was mistaken prior.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 03:19:46 PM by MCirba »

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2128 on: July 02, 2009, 04:40:17 PM »
Mike,

Here are your GRASS DOCTORS ORDERS for this weekend:

- no GCA till Sunday afternoon
- one glass of red wine tonight at 9:00 PM
- 8 hours sleep (in bed by 10:00 PM)
- 18 holes of golf in the Saturday morning sun
- lawn work around the house after golf (cut back those shrubs)
- Saturday evening dinner with family (roast beef)....now one glass of red wine followed by reading Wodehouse to sleep
- Sunday morning mass
- Sunday afternoon begin a Cobbs Creek revitalization thread on GCA

This prescription is written with love.

Doctor Brad




Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2129 on: July 02, 2009, 06:29:46 PM »


Then, about every 5 days or so, I end up having to respond to Patrick Mucci, who starts about 200 prior posts and starts firing off lengthy, inflammatory, bright green posts raising issues that were settled 150 posts ago,

That's not true.
The questions were neither inflamatory nor previously settled.
If they were truely settled, I wouldn't make the inquiry.
And, if they were truely settled, you could just reference the reply # where they were settled.


and demanding to know the truth

Are you kidding ?  Since when is that improper ?   ?   ?


and demanding that the club release it's private records for his review and supposed approval.   ::)


That's a blatant lie.
I've never demanded that any club release their private records.


Perhaps that would be tolerable if it was only those of us who could do this type of thing with a decent level of civility, but when every five days I get another barrage from a Patrick calling me a liar,

You did lie,
You lied above when you stated that:     "I demanded that the club release their private records."
  
And, you lied in your reply # 1838, dated 06-19-09, 4:25:18 pm, when you stated the following:


There is also not a single shred of evidence that anyone did any routing in 1910 and even tons of evidence against it.


If you don't want me to point out where you've lied, DON'T LIE ! [/b][/size]


or Tom MacWood appearing with a new theory out of the blue,


Since when is Tom MacWood, or anyone prohibited from asking questions or introducing new material for discussion ?

You've attempted to stifle discussions that don't fit your argument.
But, you were the one who started this thread, thinking that you were going to "close the book" on any other theories regarding Merion's origins.

The only problem is that the thread didn't conform to your preconceived notion, taking an investigative turn that you didn't like, hence, you've attempted to close down any thoughts that differ from yours.


I think it's time to just move on to much more productive uses of time.


That's your opinion, one not shared by all.


I think if we are all honest with ourselves we'd admit that it's a good idea at this point...

I disagree.
Since when is seeking the truth subject to a time limit ?
Since when is due diligence or research on the clock according to you ?
Let the efforts to discover the truth continue.
And, Lastly, since when is uncovering the truth a bad thing ?


« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 06:36:55 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2130 on: July 02, 2009, 06:59:46 PM »
Micheal, Michael, Michael:

You're wondering where they were going to put the skating rink?

You have produced some of the best pictures of the East Course ever shown on GCA.  You are, surely, as knowledgeable about the history of the course as anyone (I'd better duck when I say that!).

Have you never seen the photograph of the skating house that stood on the ridge in front of the 17th green every winter for some years as the quarry between the rock face wall and that ridge was flooded annually as a skating pond?  I think they stopped doing that during WW II and never re-started it.

Michael, Michael, Michael - what are we to do with you?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2131 on: July 02, 2009, 07:45:15 PM »
Patrick,

Please continue your excellent series of NGLA. I can't stand to read these posts where you say that Mike is a liar.

In the Midwest we don't even use the L word in any of our arguments.....unless we are talking about Democrats.  

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2132 on: July 02, 2009, 09:47:51 PM »
Tom Macwood has asked me a favour to post two replies for him. Here is the first, and please don't shoot the messenger (ducking for cover!)

Mike
You've spent hours and hours trying to figure out every possibility of the Francis land swap, but you can't answer my simple questions, including the most fundamental question of all. Based on their stated commitment to spare no effort, and their pattern of selecting top talent, can you explain why Lloyd & Co would choose Wilson? Actually you did try to answer it I suppose. You pointed to the 1903 tournament when he played behind the immortal JJ Cook and you pointed to his stint in 1902 as the student representative on the green committee at Princeton. Jeff B's explanation was they saw him as a budding CBM even though he shares nothing in common with the man. And TEP's explanation is there is no explanation, it happened, accept it. This is precisely why the research and debate continues. Your explanations are ridiculous.
 
Is it possible that Wilson's role, and the role of the CONSTRUCTION COMMITTEE, was to oversee construction and not to design the golf course? Wasn't Wilson chairman of the green committee at Merion, and weren't the others on the committee also on the green committee, with the exception of Francis?
 
Of the sixteen courses I listed for Barker prior to June 1910 the majority were in play between 1909 and 1910 (Columbia opened in 1910, not 1911), and the rest were completed the following year. I don’t follow where you are going with this. Clearly he was in great demand, and his activities were well publicized. Are you trying to suggest, not unlike what you tried with CBM, that Barker really had very little in the way of a resume at the time he was involved with Merion? Therefore the people at Merion were idiots to engage him the first place, and eventually came to their senses and turned the design responsibility over to the more qualified Hugh Wilson. Attempting to prop up Wilson by tearing down others is pathetic. Not unlike the comment about my analytical abilities.
 
Who had a better resume June of 1910 than Barker (this is open to anyone to answer - I've asked it for over a year and have yet to get an answer)? I'm sure you must have some names in mind, and please include their resumes.
 
Regarding your questioning of Barker's involvement at Garden City, Golfer Magazine and the NY Tribune in 1908 reported Barker was involved in the historic redesign.
“More striking changes are to be made to the links of the GCGC, although it only fifteen months since the course was revolutionized…HH Barker, the new professional from Ireland, says the links, even with the forty odd new bunkers, is not hard enough yet.” 2/15/1908. The Golfer
 
“Travis has been working on the links almost constantly for the last few weeks…Altogther more than one hundred bunker have been added. HH Barker, the former Yorkshire amateur, now the GC pro, has also been pressed into service.” 5/4/1908. NY Tribune
 
In 1920 in American Golfer Travis wrote: “The changes at Garden City were made when HH Barker was the resident professional and many a talk I had with him regarding golf course architecture which led to his undertaking at my suggestion the laying out of a number of courses--among others that of the Mayfield CC, which Harry Vardon in his previous tour in 1913 pronounced the best he had played over on this side.”
 
Golf architecture is not a zero sum game. Barker’s involvement doesn’t require we diminish Travis’s.
 
Allen Wilson did say the two Merion courses were designed and built without the help of a golf architect. He also said his brother traveled to the UK as the first step. By the way has anyone seen the original document? I believe this is the document we discovered TEP had altered.
 
To my knowledge Connell did not play golf. The November 15, 1910 MCC minutes said that Connell on his own account obtained a report from Barker. HHB’s attached letter was addressed ‘Dear Sir’. The 11/15 minutes also said Griscom obtained the report from M&W. CBM’s letter was not attached, but we now know it was addressed to 'Dear Mr. Lloyd.' The Inquirer, The Record and The Press reported Lloyd had the course examined by Macdonald, Whigham and Barker. You can believe what you want, but I believe Lloyd was calling the shots.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2133 on: July 02, 2009, 09:49:06 PM »
here's Tom's second post.....

"3) A December 1, 1910 NY Times article that states Barker is leaving to lay out some new courses.   Of course, this ignores the fact that Barker left for the south every winter {where he would be assigned to a club, play winter tournaments, and was beginning to layout some courses}., and was playing in a tournament in Atlanta a few days later, and also is credited with laying out some courses in the south during that time.   Mr. MacWood argues that because the train line to Atlanta ran through Philadelphia, Barker must have stopped at Ardmore for a day to route the course and move on."

Mike
This in the kind of disinformation you have been engaged in since this debate began - anything goes to preserve the Wilson legend. Barker came to the US in 1907 as the pro at GCGC. From 1907 to 1911 he never had a winter job in the south. In fact he never had a winter job period. The only time he had job in the south was when he was the pro at Roebuck in Birmingham, after resigning from Rumson (NJ), which was his position after GCGC. He was the pro at Roebuck between 1912 to 1914. His first documented trip to the south (beyond Richmond) was that trip to Atlanta December 1910, when he won the Southern Open. Where do you come up with this stuff?

While its very kind of you to share my theory I'd prefer to do it myself, briefly.

The newspapers report the new Merion project on November 14, 1910, it is said no expense would be spared and that the work would commence immediately. On November 24, 1910 it was reported in the Phila Press that Barker had been secured to layout the new course. On December 1, 1910 it was reported in the NY Times and NY Tribune Barker was leaving on a three week tour and that several new courses would be staked out (destinations unknown).  He competed in the Southern Open in Atlanta between Dec. 8-10 (he won the championship). Based in Garden City he would have traveled through Philadelphia coming and going to Atlanta. On December 21, 1910 Cuyler writes his letter regarding the need to adjust the boundaries; he also mentions a golf course as if it existed (according to TEP). Wilson also mentioned a golf course in his letters to P&O beginning on 2/1/1911, his first known action for that committee. Obviously something prompted Cuyler to write his letter. I believe a golf course was staked in December, and Barker is the likely candidate. Wilson said the construction committee was formed early in 1911.

"Tom Macwood,
If your contention is that Wilson would never have been chosen by the Merion leaders because they were choosing the best in the business in each endeavor results in a conclusion that Barker must have done the routing and hole concepts, I have to ask...why was he around so little, if at all.
Is it honestly your contention that he got off a train from New York City to Atlanta for a day, two at the most, and this lack of attention was going to pass muster with the people that were only settling for the best?"

Jim
It is my contention that all signs point to Barker as the person who routed the course, which likely included his hole concepts. I believe his routing survived, but the hole concepts most likely did not, at least a good number did not.

Please disregard Mike's unending mantra about Barker being a one day wonder. He was a three day wonder. From what I've been able to piece together Barker normally spent about three days, give or take a day, routing and staking out a course. Mayfield was three days, CC of Atlantic City was three days, Myers Park was two days, CC of Virginia four days and Winnetka, in collaboration with HS Colt, three days. In 1910 this was not unusual. Who knows how long it took to produce and submit detailed plans. No doubt topo maps were useful before, during and after the site visit.

Pros like Barker and Ross were club pros, they could not spend unlimited time away. They often relied on others to carry out the construction. Experienced contractor like Johnson Contractors were a great assistance to many of them. Barker was quite fortunate with his construction supervisors, Mayfield was built by Bert Way, Winnetka by Donald Ross, Waverly by George Trumbull, Columbia by Walter Harban, East Lake and Druid Hills by George Adaire, Westhampton by Seth Raynor, Youngstown by John Morley, Merion by..... That is an all-star group.

We may look down on this method today, especially if judged against contemporary examples, but you can not argue with the results, at least in Barker's case. And history is full of similar examples: Mackenzie in Australia, Alison in Japan and Colt in N. America, some of the greatest courses in the world were the results of the wam-bam-thank-you-mam method.

TE
"Just because" is not a good answer IMO.

The 4/19/11 report IS nonsensical. At least the disjointed portion you've given to the general public, with its the bizarre shifting between first person, second person and third person, in the same sentence. The report was authored by Robert Lesley a trained journalist and former editor. There is something odd about your version, and I hope you're not up to your old shenanigans. Speaking of Lesley why do you constantly refer to it as the Wilson report? He is not mentioned it and did not write it.

P&O were very interested in golf architecture, and wrote numerous articles on the subject. A good portion of their Green Section Bulletin was devoted to GCA. In addition to Wilson P&O asked CBM and Walter Harban to contribute to their 1916 book, and both spoke of architecture. CBM's letter to Wilson mentions nothing about architecture either, only greenkeeping issues, surely he was interested in the subject.

Mike has suggested this thread be suspended, and I agree, this thread should be suspended until someone can come up with a reasonable explanation why Lloyd & Co would ask Wilson to design their course.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2134 on: July 02, 2009, 10:37:00 PM »
Neil,

Cheers!  Please ask Tom to produce a train ticket for Barker showing he got off in Philly in Dec. 1910 and I will believe him.  When official documents show that Wilson WAS appointed, and that they gave hearty thanks to CBM but DID NOT mention Barker, I say Mike C is right in joining me for a call to suspend this thread, but I don't think its because we need a reasonable explanation as to why Wilson was put in charge.  It's because he and Pat insist on circumstantial evidence that Barker eithert routed the course in December (MacWood) or had some of his one day of work survive into the final land parcel and routing of MCC (Mucci)

Why exactly should those who have the most documents favoring their positions be put on the defensive, other than good (or bad) lawyering?  Why not the other side?

Mike and I can at least stomach Bryan and Jim Sullivan.  While I believe they are speculating even more than I, I can follow the logic of their arguments and concede they MIGHT be true.  At least, there is a way they could be true, even if we don't have the documents to prove it.  Tom MacWoods relies on even more far fetched speculation that we should all share his man crush for Barker, and that he alone reallizes that Barker was more famous than CBM, and his 20 courses (if that by 1910, I think the list is inflated) had more influence in the world of golf than NGLA, etc.

Pat just likes to argue nonsense and attack others, at least IMHO.  I see no evidence that he is seeking truth, just conflict.

I considered making a list of known documents in the club history, relevant newspaper articles, etc. and putting them in columns supporting either the pre or post Nov 1910 land swap, or the Wilson/CBM or HHB routing and design.

I gave up, because it would be a waste of typing that would still spur argument.  But, I will say, that on my paper list, the number of documents supporting Wilson/CBM in 1911 was longer than the HHB list or pre 1911 list. As someone quoted above, its folly to wait for 100% conviction to decide.  Wise men should be content with reasonable certainty.  I can't speak for others, but I have reached reasonable certainty myself (and it feels good!)  Some one like Pat who wants to leave the door endlessly ajar so he can keep arguing (not proving, mind you) should go reread that quote.

So, I hope you all reach some closure on this in your own minds.  And to all a good night!

Ran, take down this thread!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2135 on: July 02, 2009, 10:50:31 PM »
Jeff,

I affirm what you have stated about Patrick. As much as it pains me to agree with you, his comments today have clearly crossed the line.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 10:52:03 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2136 on: July 02, 2009, 11:00:16 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

Once again, you've distorted and completely mis-stated my position.

You claimed that none of Barker's efforts found their way into the initial golf course.

I countered that you COULDN'T draw that conclusion since you had NO facts to support your conclusion.

I further stated, that without Barker's routing/design, you couldn't exclude elements of Barker's routing/design from finding their way into the initial golf course.  That statement, absent Barker's routing/design is IRREFUTABLE.

The foundation of my position is LOGIC.

Like a fool, you ignore the geometric purity of the logic, choosing instead, to label my position as solely argumentative.
Clearly, you're blind to the substance, prefering to rale against the form[/size][/b]

This thread has been informative and the search for the verifiable truth should continue, not be squelched because you and Mike don't like where it's gone and is going.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 11:05:43 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2137 on: July 02, 2009, 11:03:10 PM »
Jeff,

I affirm what you have stated about Patrick. As much as it pains me to agree with you, his comments today have clearly crossed the line.


Bradley,

I documented two cases where Mike lied, by citing/quoting his own words.

If holding posters accountable for not telling the truth is crossing the line, so be it.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2138 on: July 02, 2009, 11:04:45 PM »
Patrick,

According to your last post Jeff Brauer is blind fool. Are you committed to stand by that statement without retraction?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2139 on: July 02, 2009, 11:11:50 PM »
Patrick,

According to your last post Jeff Brauer is blind fool. Are you committed to stand by that statement without retraction?


In the context of the specifics I was refering to, ABSOLUTELY !

Now I'll ask you a question.

Without the production of Barker's routing/design how can you unequivically state whether or not any elements of Barker's routing/design made it into the initial golf course ?

Even though they've never seen Barker's routing/design, Jeff and Mike have stated that NONE of the elements of Barker's routing/design made it into the initial golf course.

Do you agree or disagree with that statement ?
A one (1) word answer will do... agree or disagree ?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2140 on: July 02, 2009, 11:25:00 PM »
Patrick,

I feel very safe in disagreeing for two reasons:

1) the manner of your argument lacks the decorum that is almost always associated with the truth.

2) your position is not explicitly stated by those who were there to report it as it happened.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2141 on: July 02, 2009, 11:30:27 PM »
Bradley,

Stop the B.S., posturing and camoflage and answer the question.

Agree or Disagree ?

Without Barker's routing/design how can anyone unequivically state what elements were or weren't incorporated in the initial golf course ?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 11:32:54 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2142 on: July 02, 2009, 11:31:59 PM »
Patrick

I think if you went out to a pasture and put your logic next to some cow turds, it would be hard for most of us to tell the difference, because your logic is pure crap on this one.

Let's see.  There is no Barker routing....Because there is no Barker routing, we must presume the possibility that elements of his routing MIGHT have found there way into a routing that changed land parcels, was worked on later by Wilson and the committee, CBM, Whigam, etc.  Actually, I once conceded that a few holes, IMHO south of Ardmore being most likely, MIGHT have found their way into the routing, or at least that the REAL routers might have found the same hole corridors, even if reversed, extended, etc.  

If you want to argue that this means some of Barkers rough sketches somehow approximated some parts of the final routing, then so be it.  I'll accept that. All I ever asked you is, so what?  What kind of victory is that for Barker?  How does the fact that Barker did a routing in June 1910, which is accepted as fact, change the history of what went later?  How does it change it if in fact a few holes sketched roughly by Barker simulate a few of the final holes?

What is the importance of the points you have so vociferiously and repetitively argued to the history of MCC?  I can't see it being important one bit as a significant event in MCC history, beyone what was known.  Can you?  If so, please enlighten me as to what, IF TRUE, importance it has, the makes you subject the rest of us to such unpleasantness and make yourself look like such a fool?

Maybe I am way off base here and will put this to a vote?

Am I the only one that thinks that no Barker routing means its most likely that it was fairly UNIMPORTANT to MCC history?  Or do most of you agree that because we DON'T have it, it means it could have had some signifigance?

Is Pat's argument that a few of Barkers holes COULD be in the final routing in some form important enough to generate ten or more windy and insulting posts from him and another 20 hot responses from the rest of us?

Should we all humor Pat and agree that yes, because there is no evidence that Barker holes made it into the final MCC routing, that we must therefore conclude that they did?  Sure, I will agree that they MIGHT have.  Will that stop Pat?

Does anyone agree with me that him arguing endlessly a more or less tangent point that is truly speculative in nature, that I have produced no facts in this thread, and that I am speculating, when I say he is speculating because there is no evidence?  Is it speculating to say that there is no evidence, so I conclude its probably not true?

Lastly, as to credit for Barker, if that is what he is going after, I will offer this.  Most courses in history have had more than one architect make preliminary studies.  Many have routings by separate gca's before picking one.  Is there any other case where another gca considered for the job did a routing on his own, and then gets credit for the design?

Years ago, I did some studies and routings for what is now Common Ground, by Doak, for a different owner/management company.  Obviously, they were never implemented, but its possible that I could dig them out and find a few holes in locations where I had routed them years ago.  Do I get credit for Common Ground because of it?  I think not?

Pat,

Again, if you will, please tell me what you think is the major signifgance of Barker's one day routing and the possibility that a few holes might have been incorporated into the routing the next year?  I am all ears, and also watching my step very carefully.  And, as you suggest for Bradley, a short answer will suffice.

Thanks in advance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2143 on: July 02, 2009, 11:33:18 PM »
Disagree

henrye

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2144 on: July 02, 2009, 11:56:16 PM »
Pat.  You've made your point and I don't see where you gain by demanding anything.  You are neithet the prosecutor nor the judge.  Bradley is correct in assessing your decorum.  Tom MacWood has thrown out another possibility, but without any supporting documentation, it looks very weak compared to his other contributions to this site.  Jeff, I don't think Jim or Bryan are speculating any more than you.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2145 on: July 03, 2009, 12:18:19 AM »
Patrick,

I hope that this thread has played itself out.

We have all been through the looking glass and back. But what stands out to me is your double assertion that one of our great contributers is a blind fool. And so this whole argument ends on an even sadder note that it began.




 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2146 on: July 03, 2009, 12:30:14 AM »
Patrick

I think if you went out to a pasture and put your logic next to some cow turds, it would be hard for most of us to tell the difference, because your logic is pure crap on this one.

The LOGIC is irrefutable.

That you don't recognize it would seem to indicate that you didn't pay attention in class.


Let's see.  

There is no Barker routing....Because there is no Barker routing, we must presume the possibility that elements of his routing MIGHT have found there way into a routing that changed land parcels, was worked on later by Wilson and the committee, CBM, Whigam, etc.  
Jeff, you're resorting to Mike's tactics by distorting and mis-stating my position.

The FACTS are that YOU and MIKE stated that NO elements of the Barker routing/design found their way into the initial golf course.

My counter position was that without the Barker routing/design you couldn't draw that conclusion.

That's IRREFUTABLE.
To argue that it's not irrefutable speaks to flaws in your cognitive abilities.

I further went on to state that without the Barker routing/design you couldn't exclude elements of Barker routing/design from having found their way into the initial golf course.

That too is IRREFUTABLE.
Yet, you and Mike and other dolts want to argue that it isn't.


Actually, I once conceded that a few holes, IMHO south of Ardmore being most likely, MIGHT have found their way into the routing, or at least that the REAL routers might have found the same hole corridors, even if reversed, extended, etc.  

Yes, but, you only conceded that AFTER I challenged you and Mike on your initial statements regarding Barker's routing/design.


If you want to argue that this means some of Barkers rough sketches somehow approximated some parts of the final routing, then so be it.  I'll accept that.

That's all I asked.


All I ever asked you is, so what?  


Let me try to explain this to you.
Mike Cirba unequivically pronounced and made another one of his many flawed conclusions, that NO ELEMENTS of Barker's routing/design found their way into the initial golf course.   I challenged that position by asking: "How do you know that, absent the production of Barker's routing/design ?
Now Chipoat and others understood the question and the logic of the question.
Even you, subsequently conceded the possibility.
Yet, Mike clung to his flawed conclusion, and as such, I continued to challenge it.


What kind of victory is that for Barker?  

This isn't about championing Barker's colors.
I've repeatedly stated that I don't know who did what, but, that I'd like to find out how Merion evolved.
You don't discover anything when one participant continually draws flawed conclusions, and dismisses and disclaims anything that doesn't fit his position.  


How does the fact that Barker did a routing in June 1910, which is accepted as fact, change the history of what went later?  

Jeff, you can't be that obtuse.
How can you determine the history when you're missing the data ?
Data from June 1910 to 1911-1912.
I'd like to discover/learn more.
You and Mike want to end the thread.
Why ?
What are you afraid of ?


How does it change it if in fact a few holes sketched roughly by Barker simulate a few of the final holes?

It certainly changes what the accepted history has been.
And, it may be the tip of the iceberg.

I've said all along that I'm interested in Francis's role.
Was he the "Raynor" of the project ?
I know he seems to dismiss his significance, but, he seems to have been the only qualified professional on site during construction.


What is the importance of the points you have so vociferiously and repetitively argued to the history of MCC?

Jeff, you must not be getting enough sleep.
Mike Cirba makes wild statements and draws flawed and erroneous conclusions and you ask me why I've been so vociferous ?
You must be kidding.
And, I'm not the only one objecting to his methodology, Bryan, Jim, Chip and others felt the same way and challenged him accordingly.
Are we to accept anything and everything he says ?
 

I can't see it being important one bit as a significant event in MCC history, beyone what was known.

Jeff, you've lost your marbles.
Let's start with the accepted MCC history that Wilson sailed to the UK, studied the great courses there and then returned and designed Merion.
Should we have accepted that flawed representation of MCC's history.

Mike also states that NO routing/design work was ever done in 1910.

We know that's NOT TRUE.

More and more seems to be discovered each week.
Why do you want to end this thread ?
What do you fear in the way of discovery ?
 

If so, please enlighten me as to what, IF TRUE, importance it has, the makes you subject the rest of us to such unpleasantness and make yourself look like such a fool?

Interesting.
You don't object to people not telling the truth, misrepresenting and distorting the statements of others and drawing flawed/erroneous conclusions, but, you do object to me challenging them on those points.   In addition, when I repeatedly posed specific, direct questions to Mike Cirba, he rarely answered them.  Why ?   Yet, when you and others pose questions to me, I almost always answer them.

Now you tell me, who's been more candid ?

As to looking like a fool, you appear to have flunked Logic 101, not me.


Maybe I am way off base here and will put this to a vote?

Unless you can find errors in my facts and flaws in my logic, you're off base.


Am I the only one that thinks that no Barker routing means its most likely that it was fairly UNIMPORTANT to MCC history?  

After all this, you ask that question ?
It proves to me that you just don't get it.
You can't draw sound conclusions absent the production of his routing/design.


Or do most of you agree that because we DON'T have it, it means it could have had some signifigance?


YOU DON"T GET IT.

YOU CAN'T DRAW EITHER CONCLUSION ABSENT THE PRODUCTION OF THE BARKER ROUTING/DESIGN.

That's been a cornerstone of one of my positions.


Is Pat's argument that a few of Barkers holes COULD be in the final routing in some form important enough to generate ten or more windy and insulting posts from him and another 20 hot responses from the rest of us?

After all these posts you're asking others what my argument is ?  ?  ?
I've stated my position over and over and over and over again, and you STILL don't know what it is ?

Jeff, have someone explain it to you, you just don't get it.

How do you have the arrogance, the nerve to posture that you've been agrieved ?
You have the balls to call my posts insulting when you've posted insults time and time again ?
If I called you obtuse, I understated your condition.


Should we all humor Pat and agree that yes, because there is no evidence that Barker holes made it into the final MCC routing, that we must therefore conclude that they did?  Sure, I will agree that they MIGHT have.  

That's NOT my position.
It amazes me that after stating my position time and time again, you STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.
Have someone explain it to you.
Tell them to speak slowly and clearly.


Will that stop Pat?

Does anyone agree with me that him arguing endlessly a more or less tangent point that is truly speculative in nature, that I have produced no facts in this thread, and that I am speculating, when I say he is speculating because there is no evidence?  Is it speculating to say that there is no evidence, so I conclude its probably not true?


Jeff, you've sunk to moronic lows.
You've misstated my position once again.
Mike and You claimed that no elements of Barker's routing/design found their way into the initial golf course because the routing/design wasn't attached to the letter in the Board report.

I challenged your conclusion and stated that without the Barker routing/design you couldn't exclude elements of Barker's routing/design from finding their way into the initial golf course.  I further went on to say, that without the Barker routing/design you couldn't draw any sound conclusions as to whether or not elements of the Barker routing/design found their way into the initial golf course.

And you want to argue against that logic ?

Go ahead, tell me how, without the production of the Barker routing/design, you can draw any valid, prudent man conclusion.
Consult with Mike Cirba, Wayno or anyone you want.  Tell me how you can draw finite conclusions absent the Barker routing/design.

YOU can ONLY SPECULATE.
And, Mike continues to speculate toward  his predetermined conclusion.


Lastly, as to credit for Barker, if that is what he is going after, I will offer this.  

IT'S NOT WHAT I'M GOING AFTER YOU MORON  ;D


Most courses in history have had more than one architect make preliminary studies.  
Many have routings by separate gca's before picking one.  
Is there any other case where another gca considered for the job did a routing on his own, and then gets credit for the design?
We're not discussing "most" courses, we're discussing the specifics at Merion.


Years ago, I did some studies and routings for what is now Common Ground, by Doak, for a different owner/management company.  Obviously, they were never implemented, but its possible that I could dig them out and find a few holes in locations where I had routed them years ago.  Do I get credit for Common Ground because of it?  I think not?

That's irrelevant.


Pat,

Again, if you will, please tell me what you think is the major signifgance of Barker's one day routing and the possibility that a few holes might have been incorporated into the routing the next year?  I am all ears, and also watching my step very carefully.  And, as you suggest for Bradley, a short answer will suffice.

Without the production of Barker's routing/design I can't evaluate the significance or insignificance of Barker's routing/design and how much of it was or wasn't incorporated into Merion's initial golf course.

However, without the production of Barker's routing/design I CAN'T dismiss the significance of Barker's routing/design.

Do you follow that LOGIC ?
And, Is that short enough for you ?



Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2147 on: July 03, 2009, 12:33:55 AM »
Disagree


Bradley,

I'm afraid you've disqualified yourself as one capable of "prudent man" thinking.

The logic is irrefutable

But, you're entitled to you opinion, I'll just have to discount it in the future ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2148 on: July 03, 2009, 12:38:23 AM »
Patrick,

I hope that this thread has played itself out.

We have all been through the looking glass and back. But what stands out to me is your double assertion that one of our great contributers is a blind fool. And so this whole argument ends on an even sadder note that it began.

Bradley,

Do me a favor, save the "Drama Queen" theatrics for someone who cares.

You too have chosen to ignore the specifics of my response.
In the context of the citation, Jeff was being a blind fool, however, it wasn't by accident, he was probably being intentionally obstreperous.





 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2149 on: July 03, 2009, 12:40:43 AM »
HenryE,

Should we just accept everything, without challenge, that Mike Cirba and Jeff Brauer type ?

It's not in my fabric to accept something that I know is untrue.

Maybe others have lower standards.

How could Tom MacWood throw out another possibility if Mike and Jeff have declared this a closed case ?

Now who's demanding ?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 12:42:19 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

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