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JESII

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 02:16:09 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1501 on: June 10, 2009, 02:12:42 PM »
Jim,

Did you modify something in the timeline?  It's probably better not to repost this as it includes acreage estimates from before I had the deeds.  I should probably rework the time line with the additional information that been brought to light in the last 5 or 6 pages.

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1502 on: June 10, 2009, 02:15:29 PM »
No changes, I just wanted to see the map you created...I'll remove the text.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1503 on: June 10, 2009, 02:25:00 PM »
OK, just keep in mind that those boundaries are superseded by the newer more accurate ones in the picture a few posts up.

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1504 on: June 10, 2009, 02:30:27 PM »
Can you put the identier letters in the new map?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1505 on: June 10, 2009, 04:14:27 PM »
Here are the acreages as I calculate them based on the metes and bouunds from the deeds and the map below.

Area RE:       21.1 acres        the real estate part of the Johnson Farm, north of Ardmore, West of GHR

Area JW:      19.8 acres         the area west of GHR to the western boundary of the Johnson Farm

Merion:       120.4 acres        the course land on July 26,1911

Total:          161.3 acres       

The total should be 161.157 acres and the Merion portion 120.01.  The error in my measurements are thus around 0.3% or less.

Other areas of interest:

Area F:        4.8 acres           the Francis triangle

Area D:        21.2 acres         the Dallas Estate (error almost 1%)

Area JN:       10.5 acres         the northern rectangle of the Johnson Farm including Area F


I would note that Area F, although described as a "triangle" on here, is closer in shape to a rectangle in July 26, 1911.  Francis described it as 130 yards by 190 yards, but did not describe a shape.  The area of a rectangle 130 x190 is 5.1 acres, not very far off the area of the Francis "triangle".  The triangle shape is more pronounced in the November 15, 1910 land plan, but I'd estimate the area as being about the same as the July 26, 1911 "triangle".

I would also note that Tom's mathematical machinations were predicated on Area RE being 23 acres.  It is really 21.1 acres.


Bryan,

This is some truly awesome work.

I just have one question til I get the chance to look at this in depth and try to determine what it might mean...

Could you explain your last sentence about Tom's mathematical machinations or at least refer me to the particular post?

THANKS AGAIN!!

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1506 on: June 10, 2009, 04:27:02 PM »
Mike or Bryan -- Did the 120.4 acres that Merion encompassed on July 26, 1911 include the three acres that they were leasing and eventually bought from the railroad in 1961 (or thereabouts)? This would mean the golf course owned 117 acres, or did Merion own 120 and lease three for a total of 123 acres?

Tony_Chapman

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Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #1507 on: June 10, 2009, 05:07:06 PM »
TEPaul,

I've asked a few times before, but hopefully the third time is charmed.   WHAT DO MCC'S AND/OR MERION'S ADMINISTRATIVE RECORDS SAY ABOUT THE LAND SWAP?

I asked you a number of questions a while back about the MCC records, and you seemed to be considering whether to answer them or not.  Can I expect answers?  If so, when? 


David -- I'm just getting into this, but trying to figure out a couple of things. Why would there be any "administrative records" of the swap when it appears that the actual boundaries of the course weren't set until everything was finalized. I guess I'm under the impression that whoever routed Merion needed to get it with 117 acres, but they had more than that at their disposal. The way I see it, you route the golf course, make sure you've used 117 acres and then put the road where it ended up and those are the boundaries. As I see, nothing was really "swapped"; it was just land used that they had at their disposal for the routing? Am I way off base?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1508 on: June 10, 2009, 05:29:32 PM »
Tony,

I believe that Bryan is NOT including the 3 acres of Railroad Land in his calculations, meaning that all he is trying to add up to is the 161 acres that Lloyd purchased from HDC.

The would include the 140 acres of the Johnson Farm, and the 21 acres of the Dallas Estate.

Of the 140 acres of the Johnson Farm, just under 100 acres were used for the golf course, 19.8 acres were used for real estate just west along the Golf House Road border  (the swerving road running from Ardmore Avenue up past 14 and 15 labelled "JW") and 21.1 acres were really never considred for golf, lying along the lower strip and out to the west labelled "RE".

That would also mean that Bryan is  measuring out the entire northeastern and southern sections of the Johnson Farm property at 119 acres, not 117.

Did I do that correctly Bryan?


« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 05:46:15 PM by MCirba »

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1509 on: June 10, 2009, 05:48:21 PM »
Mike -- Thanks. What I'm trying to get at is you said Merion wanted to build the golf course on 117 acres, is that correct? And, Merion, I believe had a deal with Lloyd and HDC to do so. So, they bought the 161 acres knowing that'd they have 44 acres give or take to sell for lots. Am I on the right track?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1510 on: June 10, 2009, 09:17:03 PM »
Bryan,

I want to thank you again for this tremendous work but wanted to point out something I think might be confusing folks.

I think there is a discrepancy between your descriptions of the land and acreage of areas "RE" and "JW" and where they are located on that map.

Before any of us comment further we should probably get clarification from you on which of those areas is 21.1 acres and which is 19.8

Thanks, again.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1511 on: June 11, 2009, 01:49:59 AM »
Sorry for the confusion.  I got lazy in putting up the graphic.  Here is the labeled version.  Area M is Merion on July 26, 1911.

To be clear, Area JW and Area RE and Area RR are all external to Area M.  Area M is 120 acres and does include Area D and Area F.

Tony,

No the RR Land is not included in the Merion deeded 120.01 (or 120.4 as I measure it) acres.




Bryan Izatt

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Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #1512 on: June 11, 2009, 02:26:45 AM »
Mike,

Re your question

"Could you explain your last sentence about Tom's mathematical machinations or at least refer me to the particular post?"

I was referring to the eureka moment that Tom (and you, later) was pushing in mathematically deducing what was in the 117 and 120 acres.  It's embodied in the post below, although he presented it multiple time going way back to posts #652, 656 and 670.  I've added the correct numbers in red to highlight how the math should have been done.  The error is the opening assumption that the Johnson land never considered for the course (what I've labeled Area RE) was 23 acres.  It's not - it's 21.1 acres.  Based on that false assumption, the rest of the analysis falls apart.


"***EDIT*** I just went back and see that Bryan Izatt measured the land of the Johnson Farm north of Ardmore Ave. but west of Golf House road at 22 acres.   The Johnson Farm itself was just over 140 acres, which means if the original HDC offer was simply for the portions south of Ardmore Avenue, and the northeast section above Ardmore Avenue, that would be around 118 acres total.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but it is certainly possible that this is the portion of land M&W were asked to consider and report on. (drawn crudely in black)"



You're not sure if it's RELEVENT??

Of course it's relevent! All one needs to do is follow the timeline of what MCC and HDC were doing from around July 1910 to about the middle of December 1910 to understand just how relevent it really is. Whether they had their eye on the Dallas Estate in June or July 1910 or whether they didn't the fact is when the Dallas Estate was finally nailed down by HDC around the beginning of Nov. 1910 that is practically the same day and certainly the same week Lloyd and Connell completed their negotiations and the actual formal offer was made by Nickolson to Evans through Lloyd and MCC's board voted on it and accepted the offer to purchase 117 acres!!

Then when MCC came in with their working topo contour maps (probably in the end of Dec or beginning of Jan 1911) with that proposed road drawn on the map to scale that they used to route and design numerous courses and plans on throughout the winter and early spring of 1911, one needs to realize that the land to the west of that road and between the western boundary at the top of the "L" of the old Johnson farm was approximately 21 acres that I said back on post #652, 656 and 670 I am convinced it was!

As I said in those posts back there:

23 acres=the western section of the old Johnson farm never considered for golf  Tom assumed it was 23 acres.  It's not, it's 21.1 acres
140.137 acres=the entire Johnson farm
140-23=117 acres  140.137 - 21.1 = 119.037

Remove that app 21 acres (Another false assumption, it now measures to be 19.8 acres)  from the 117  (really should be 119.037, as above) I mentioned on posts #652, 656, and 670 of the old Johnson farm to the west of the proposed road from the course plan (as it was on their working topo survey maps);

117-21=96 acres   119.037 - 19.8 = 99.237 acres

ADD the Dallas estate (21 acres  Deeded as 21.02 acres)

96+21=117 acres   99.327 + 21.02 = 120.347 acres

ADD the exchange AND 3 acre additional purchased acres to the golf course land via the Francis fix idea gotten along the extension of Golf House Road through it's redelineation from the working topo survey maps to its actual metes and bounds "as built" delineation (Thompson Resolution)----I've been saying this for over a year now!

117+3=120.1 acres of the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA   120.347 + 3 = 123.347 acres   Oooops, wrong answer!  It's not the 120.01 acres on the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA.  The flaws are in the original assumption, by Tom, that the Johnson Estate land never considered for the golf course was 23 acres, and the assumption that the land west of GHR to the western boundary of the Johnson Farm was 21 acres.  Neither were as assumed by Tom.  Perhaps that was why he wanted to sell me his methodology and why he didn't want to share the deeds and metes and bounds.  Hope that helps, Mike.


THIS is why I said in posts #652, 656 and 670 that when the metes and bounds of Golf House Road are measured with and enclosed with that old Johnson boundary (after the Francis fix) the area in there is no longer app 21 acres BUT 18!! (posts #652, 656 and 670!)


(of course if the road actually crossed over the old Johnson farm western boundary at the top of the "L" and into the Taylor estate a professional surveyor can easily find the small remainder).


There is no question in my mind what this serves to do is set that Francis idea and fix inside at some point the TIMEFRAME of Dec. 19, 1910 AND April 19, 1911 (but much more likely before April 6, 1911) and it is all reflected in the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA. If it happened before that none of this makes any sense and I guarantee you when a professional surveyor does these metes and bounds measurments THEY WILL match my incremental results above of 21 and then 18!

I've been saying this for 2-3 weeks and so far no one seems to understand it. This is the only place a boundary adjustment could have happened and the Francis boundary adjustment is the only one ever mentioned in this timeframe so it is the only one that could've happened in this timeframe! If Bryan measures the right boundaries and he measures well I'm convinced he will come to the same results. But if he does he still may not quite understand what it really means! We'll see.







Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1513 on: June 11, 2009, 06:14:26 AM »
Bryan,

The numbers are indeed perplexing.

I see nowhere that the 3 acres purchase mentioned in April 1911 can be identified.

It makes me wonder if they at first thought they needed to buy the 3 acres of Railroad land near the clubhouse and instead simply negotiated a cheap lease deal the next month.

Again, pure speculation, but I think all of us are left with more questions than answers right now and I don't see how what's been measured neatly encapsulates any of the theories that have been bandied about.

Do you?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1514 on: June 11, 2009, 06:28:36 AM »
Two other questions, not sure either is applicable.

You mentioned earlier something about True North changing over time.   Does that factor at all here?

Also, David has long contended that Merion's holes were mismeasured "along the ground" by some factor.   Any chance a surveyor back then made some percentage error?

Again, I want to thank you for doing all of this, Bryan...I'm sure it's been a lot of work! 

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1515 on: June 11, 2009, 08:01:26 AM »
Bryan,

Are you thinking that the Francis Swap all happened within and above Area F?

Is that what you;re suggesting when you say that the triangle on the 1910 Land Plan is essentially the same acreage as the shorter more rectangular shape that got built?

Also, do you recall what we measured the 1910 Land Plan at?  I recall it didn't come out to 117 acres, but can't recall what people estimated.


p.s....I'd just add here that the reason Tom Paul didn't provide the metes and bounds is because they were provided to him by someone who has no interest in seeing his thousands of hours of research efforts appear on GCA, as he's no longer a member here.  I just thought before we continue to lambaste Tom that someone should make that fact known.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 09:33:47 AM by MCirba »

John_Cullum

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1516 on: June 11, 2009, 09:42:55 AM »
So what about the Southeast corner of the property that has a green, a tee, and some fairway but is not within the boundaties of the course?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tony_Chapman

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Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #1517 on: June 11, 2009, 10:11:36 AM »
If we are getting technical about what actually went on in 1910 and 1911, they (that is MCC) did not buy anything in Nov. 1910. What they had in Nov. 1910 was a basic understanding (agreement in principle with HDC) that they would buy a certain amount of land for a certain amount of money out of a larger HDC tract from the HDC eventually if they agreed to get to work doing a course.

When they had that (agreement in principle) via two letters between Nickelson of the HDC and president Evans of MCC in Nov. 1910, then MCC got their lawyer and board member, T. DeWitt Cuyler, to swing into action and create what was known as The MCC Golf Association Company. We need to take very careful note of the company part of that because before that MCC had been operating at Haverford for golf with what was known as the MCC Golf Association which was formed in 1909 by a group of golfing members including Alan Wilson and I believe Hugh and a few others. I doubt that former MCC Golf Association was a separate registered company but it may've operated through a corporate entity within MCC known as the Haverford Land Co (not the same thing as HDC).

(Do you think these MCC "captains of the universe" like Lloyd, Scattergood, Griscom, Cuylers, Thayer et al were corporation freaks and geeks with all the complex financial shit that went along with all that or what?? I guarantee you if these bigtime business honchos could borrow a nickel for 5 1/4 cents on this side of the street and lend it out on the other side of the street for 5 1/2 cents or save a dollar in taxes somehow they would do it in a heartbeat with some kind of labrynthian corporate structure no matter how rich they were! ;) ).

It would take Cuylers who was apparently one of the most powerful men in the American railroad industry and an expert on corporate law and corporate registration a number of weeks to get the MCC Golf Association Company set up with officers, with a certain amount of stock and registered. That would not get done until around the third week of Dec. 1910.

At that point 161 acres was transfered from HDC to a man by the name of Rothwell (probably a title and trust company employee) for $1.00. Three days later Rothwell transfered the property to Lloyd and his wife. At that point Lloyd was the president of the newly set up MCC Golf Association Co.

Lloyd would hold the land for the golf course (120 acres) until July 19, 1911 at which point he transfered it back to Rothwell who transfered it to the MCC Golf Association Company the same day, each time for $1.00. Within a year or so the MCC Golf Association Company would lease the land and course to MCC, the club.

One might wonder what-all the 161 acres was that was initially transfered through to Lloyd and his wife in Dec. 1910. It was the entire 140 acre Johnson Farm and we believe it was the 21 acre Dallas estate. When Lloyd transfered the 120 acres back through Rothwell to the MCC Golf Association Co. in July 1911 we assume he kept about 40 acres of the old Johnson Farm across Ardmore Ave from the second hole that became part of the residential development to the west that was known as HDC. We feel pretty confident that for about the last 7-8 months (from Dec, 1910 to July 1911) Lloyd and his MCC syndicate had essentially been in control of HDC too and probably through a stock underwriting/offering he engineered and just a basic preconceived real estate sales management arrangement with the former owners of HDC and probably primarily MCC members et al many of which would be residential buyers and builders on the HDC land (221 acres). We've begun to track the real estate development sell out to the west over the next 7-12 years into the 1920s and a lot of them were MCC members including interestingly enough Hugh I. Wilson on the corner of Exeter Rd overlooking the 14th hole.

But the most fascinating and impressive thing to me is obviously there were a number of preconceived reasons Lloyd took control and ownership like that in the end of Dec. 1910 and according to a letter from Cuylers to Evans on Dec. 21 1910 one of those reasons was so Lloyd could move boundary lines for the course around at will because the boundaries of what would become the course had not been definitely determined upon at that point according to Cuylers.

And we also know because it is recorded in the administrative records of MCC that within a couple of weeks or sooner (the beginning of Jan. 1911)  the Wilson Committee would be formed and according to their April report to the board they would spend the next three months between January and April first laying out many different courses on the ground, then going to NGLA for two days in the second week of March, then home to hone their course layouts down to five different plans, get Macdonald/Whigam back on April 6, 1911 for a day, go over the grounds and five plans, select one to be approved by the board and that was done on April 19, 1911.

That's what the records show, those are the facts, and in the course of all this at some point in 1911, Francis who was then a member of Wilson's committee had his idea of how to finally fix #15 and #16 which he said in his story had been a problem getting in all along with the last five holes (again obviously because that triangle that shows up on the plan back on Nov. 15, 1910 was just too damned narrow to fit the 15th green and 16th tee up into). Francis certainly knew to go to Lloyd and just get his permission on the spot to redelineate that road on the plan which wouldn't even be built for a couple more years and it was done (no deed or land transfer necessary at that point) and they probably did get quarry men to blow the top wall off the quarry in two days as his story said. The thing I think is so interesting is Francis's midnight visit to Lloyd could hardly have been a surprise in the slightest to Lloyd----he was ready for it because he and Cuylers and MCC had put him in position to do something precisely like that back in the end of Dec. 1910. In other words, they all saw the possibility of something like that coming and they said so in writing back in the end of Dec. 1911 because at that point no course or precise land figuration for the course had definitely been determined upon as they said in Dec 1910.

Had MCC had "a plan", a routing and course or anything like it in place in 1910 or certainly before Nov. 15, 1910 as Moriarty's essay contends they sure wouldn't have had to do all that and go through all that, would they? And what in the world would it have been all about then that the Wilson Committee was doing all those three months in the winter of 1911 with what they reported were their "numerous different courses on the ground" and then "five different plans" that would be used to select one to be approved on April 19, 1911?

Anyway, at least one piece of MCC correspondence also indicates throughout the time from the middle of June 1910 until well into the fall they all felt it not prudent to be too obvious about what they were doing which I suppose primarily meant having their eye on the Dallas estate.

Ok, I think I'm done with the Merion threads becuase I feel pretty darn comfortable with what happened now. Mainly, I think it boils down to this:

1. Merion finds some good land for a new course and MacDonald is in town for the US Open so they invite him over in June 1910. He looks at the property says they could build a damn fine golf course, but he's too busy with his baby on Long Island to help. He suggests they get an option on the land and put a committee together and see what they can get done. He follows up by sending a letter that their course could by a nice, little 6,000 yard job and says go for it. He does recommend to them they look strongly at the Dallas Estate because they can get some real quality golf holes on the property from that acreage over there. He also recommends they get the three acres by the railroad. I think it's very possilbe, that MacDonald told them to get the hell over across Ardmore Ave as fast as you can (knowing they had a clubhouse site already set) and see how many holes you can get because it's going to be tight on the north side of the property.

2. As Tom mentions above, the boys go into action to buy 161 acres for the golf course, way more than they need. But, they give Lloyd control of the boundaries. They issue to the members a "proposal" in November 1910 of what the course property my look like, but it's not set in stone. This is evident by the course, when it came to fruition, not going all the way to College Ave and having a green (the 12th) and a par-3 (the 13th) playing over the leased railroad land. Turns out Lloyd was under instruction to get the thing done at 120 acres and he did. (Really, they needed 123 acres, but decided to lease the three by the tracks.)

3. Sometime after the proposed plan comes out and when MacDonald returned, the committee is pulling their hair out because they can't get the frickin' 15th and 16th to fit in that little area on the proposed map. Francis says to Lloyd that we need this area to be wider, but we don't need to go all the way to College Ave., so we're going to widen that space out and change the direction of the road a bit (the road ends going all the way down the western border of the McFadden property) but we'll still be inside of the 120 acres that we can use for golf. Lloyd says do what you have to do. Again, since the boundaries for the golf course haven't been set yet, there is no record of a deed (or probably even any administrative record of this).

4. By early April 1911, they fell pretty damn good about what they've got and call back MacDonald. He likes what he sees, calling the finishing stretch as good as any he's seen. By April 19th, they had board approval for going full boar with the finishing of the golf course. Golf House Road is set up and the club in July, 1911 controls 120.1 acres (or thereabouts).

I think it's appropriate to say that MacDonald had some involvement in the development of Merion Golf Club. Club record certainly seems to indicate that. I think it's pretty obvious that he had something to do with the Dallas Estate property being purchased. I think he gave pretty good ideas of how to get started routing the course, but probably just advised on where holes should go. Maybe, most importantly, I think he may have seen the quality of work put forth by the men of Merion and it forced him to go back and tweak NGLA to make it even better!

In the end, I feel pretty good, though, about the club being designed by Hugh Wilson and the committee.

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1518 on: June 11, 2009, 10:14:19 AM »
So what about the Southeast corner of the property that has a green, a tee, and some fairway but is not within the boundaties of the course?

John -- That land was purchased later and the course was re-done (I think most agree by Flynn, somebody correct me if I'm wrong). On page one of this thread, Mike posted the original routing showing the 10th crossing Ardmore, the 11th going back across and the 12th playing alongside the tracks and crossing Ardmore and the 13th playing almost in behind the clubhouse. When they got that additional land, the 1st, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th were all re-done.

John_Cullum

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1519 on: June 11, 2009, 10:28:54 AM »
Tony

I would agree that your summary of the events is probably about as close to correct as we'll ever get.

The difficulty I had was understanding all of this business about "the Francis Land Swap" which I know now is a red herring. There was no "swap." The club just realigned the boundaries on a tract that was entirely conntrolled by the developer. It was all in the early stages, and it is not an event that is entitled to all of this dramatic sleuthing to figure out
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1520 on: June 11, 2009, 10:37:17 AM »
John -- Ding, ding, ding!!!!  8)

I think the swap wasn't really a swap and I think that to get all tied up about the acres in the "propsosed plan" is a waste of time, becuse it was "proposed." However, as a service to David, I need to re-read his essay to see if I'm still comfortable with what I think happened.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1521 on: June 11, 2009, 10:47:08 AM »
Tony,

For someone who is just getting interested in this topic, you sure have come up to speed pretty quickly!   Very nice summary!!  Only, I'm pretty sure Macdonald never came back to Merion after constructon started, so I think the idea that he went back to NGLA impressed is not supported factually.


Overall though, I'm not 100% sure yet that any of us are entirely right or wrong and I'm trying to work the numbers a few ways to see what they indicate.

At this point, the biggest unanswered question I have is simply this...

What were the original 117 acres referred to and should we just be now assuming that they gained 3 acres somewhere along the border of Golf House Road between the original "approximate" boundary drawn on the November 1910 Land Plan and what was finalized by July 1911?



« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 11:00:55 AM by MCirba »

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1522 on: June 11, 2009, 11:16:24 AM »
Tony,

For someone who is just getting interested in this topic, you sure have come up to speed pretty quickly!   Very nice summary!!  Only, I'm pretty sure Macdonald never came back to Merion after constructon started, so I think the idea that he went back to NGLA impressed is not supported factually.


Overall though, I'm not 100% sure yet that any of us are entirely right or wrong and I'm trying to work the numbers a few ways to see what they indicate.

At this point, the biggest unanswered question I have is simply this...

What were the original 117 acres referred to and should we just be now assuming that they gained 3 acres somewhere along the border of Golf House Road between the original "approximate" boundary drawn on the November 1910 Land Plan and what was finalized by July 1911?


Mike -- Thanks. Didn't you post something a couple of days ago that was a quote from MacDonald as saying something to the effect that the final seven holes will be unmatched....yada, yada. I'll have to look. I would agree that he didn't see the course "in construction" but he certainly saw what they look like from a plan, could see the ground they were going to go over and deduce they'd be some fine golf. He was right, don't you think?

I'm baffled at this 117 acre thing, to be honest. This from David's essay:

"The bulk of Merion’s purchase (about 96 acres) had come from the 140 acre “Johnson Farm” parcel, west of Cobbs Creek on both sides of Ardmore Avenue. The development company had owned this tract outright for a number of years, and it is likely that this was the bulk of the 100 acres that Haverford Development Company had originally offered Merion for their golf course. The rest came from the just acquired Dallas Estate, bringing the size of the parcel to 117 acres.

But the “Plan Showing Proposed Golf Course” is a few acres short. The Site Committee had sought “nearly 120 acres,” not 117 acres. The Plan does not include one small tract - a little less than three acres - that the Site Committee needed for the course. Like the “Dallas Estate,” this last small parcel was not under the control of Haverford Development Company at the time site committee recommended its purchase. Unlike the “Dallas Estate,” the Merion may have been unable to secure this parcel prior to the date Merion secured the rest of the land."


But, don't we now know that they built 16 1/2 holes (based on Bryan's metes and bounds exercise) on 120 acres? Right. That was Lloyd's job to get the thing in 120 acres which he did. At some point he probably had to get an agreement from the "big boys" to approve the lease of the railroad ground. Maybe we are agreeing to disagree that Bryan's numbers are correct. It seem's to me that Merion was originally built on 123 acres (120 purchase and 3 leased).

I guess what I find more interesting is the course as it is now is not on any of that leased ground. Do you know the particulars of securing the property where the current 11th green and the beginning half of the 12th are? And, is the "new" 13th (cool as it looks) not near as impressive as the original that bordered Cobbs Creek?

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1523 on: June 11, 2009, 11:40:45 AM »
David -- I don't know if you'll get back on the thread, but if you do I have a simple question. This is from your essay:

Francis and Lloyd had been fine-tuning the layout plan before Merion secured the land. Francis described his epiphany as having occurred while he was looking over a “map of the property.” He also noted that the land Merion gave up “did not fit at all in any golf layout.” So by this time the planning process was well underway, and the “swap” allowed them to better fit the last five holes into the plan for the routing. “It was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion - with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore avenue - but the last five holes were another question.” The Francis land “swap” allowed them to complete the routing plan. All before November 10, 1910.

If this were to be the case, then why does the proposed golf course (which you assert was planned by Francis, et. al in November 1910) go all the way to College Ave.?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 12:07:04 PM by Tony_Chapman »

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1524 on: June 11, 2009, 11:50:52 AM »
Mike -- Here is what I was referring to. I know I've seen it in this thread somewhere, but this is taken from David's essay:

In the May 1911 edition of American Golfer, “Hazard,” thought to be A. W. Tillinghast, reported on their return visit to Ardmore Avenue.

The new course of the Merion Cricket Club is nearing completion in the planning. During the month Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald and Mr. H. J. Whigham, who have been aiding the committee, visited the course and expressed themselves as being greatly pleased over the prospects. Mr. Macdonald said that in his opinion seven of the holes equaled any in this country and as our first national champion has played over most of the links, this statement of his should cause much satisfaction.


I obvioulsy mis-read this. As it just says "seven holes" I thought it was the "last seven."

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