[Mike_Cirba]

A couple of relevant points.



I wonder if Travis had the shovel and Emmett the pick or visa versa as they "laid out" the course on the ground  



Interesting how they bought the land, left the boundaries "loose", and then took 3 months designing the golf course and another two months building plasticene models of the holes before even beginning construction.

And from another paper;



Sound familiar??  


Tom Paul,

After taking THREE MONTHS to lay out and plan the golf course at NGLA and another two months to design it in plasticene before even beginning construction, imagine how Macdonald would have slapped any fool at Merion upside the head had they even suggested such a ridiculous thing as having him design their course in a couple of hours visit, much less a day!       

He'd have been highly insulted, I'm certain! 

But before we go too far afield on another game of "Measure me this, Batman", I thought it important we keep the relevant discovery of last night on the top page for anyone just tuning in from home.

[Andy Hughes]

Mike, here goes. I again used a 220 yard tee shot. 

[TEPaul]

Bryan Izatt:

I've got to ask you something. Do you really think you can hold your own in an GOOGLE Earthing Measurement competition with Andy Hughes? And if so why? Some of his recent Merion #16 measurements may be leading some on here to believe he can accurately measure your ass right off of you.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks, Andy.

Perhaps you should also ask Shivas why he thinks the built those fairway bunkers where they are if everyone was driving it down 300+ yards for the 130 yard approach back in 1912. 

[Andy Hughes]

Tom, Bryan is the Google Measuring maestro we all aspire to be, and it is an honor just to measure on the same thread as him.

[Andy Hughes]

Thanks, Andy.

Perhaps you should also ask Shivas why he thinks the built those fairway bunkers where they are if everyone was driving it down 300+ yards for the 130 yard approach back in 1912. 

Mike, I am just waiting to see where everyone is heading with this!

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan Izatt:

I've got to ask you something. Do you really think you can hold your own in an GOOGLE Earthing Measurement competition with Andy Hughes? And if so why? Some of his recent Merion #16 measurements may be leading some on here to believe he can accurately measure your ass right off of you.

I'm happy that Andy is trying to factualize the Mike/Dave debate.  I'll leave it to him, since Mike will never be convinced anyway.    And, not everything in life is a competition.

Andy,

I claim no maestro status, but thanks, and you look like you know what you're doing; keep up the good work of bringing out the facts.  One more you might want to try on the 16th is the three shot routing working backward from the green centre to the tee.  Make it work out to 415 or 433 yards and see where that puts the tee.  I think/speculate that if we ever found corroborating information it would be that the tee was at that place in the mid-1910's.

[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks, Andy.

Perhaps you should also ask Shivas why he thinks the built those fairway bunkers where they are if everyone was driving it down 300+ yards for the 130 yard approach back in 1912. 

Mike,

Were those bunkers there in 1912?  Were they in the middle of the rough?  The diagram you provided a few pages ago doesn't show any bunkers there.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan:

I'm going over to Merion today. It's not much of a day but if there's time how about if we get a laser rangefinder and measure the distance between that point at the end of the fairway and the front of the green and if it's appreciably different from the measurement you just got on the Google Earth ruler or whatever it is, what are we supposed to think of your measuring of any of the acreages of Merion then? Would you like the essayist has always done on here just say we are mistaken somehow too like everyone else who was around Merion back then with Hugh Wilson and his committee?

A laser?     And, here I thought you were a Luddite.  Melvyn must be twitching mightily.

[Bryan Izatt]

"Probably because you are hoarding information that would clarify the metes."


Bryan:

I can understand what you say there from your position---believe me I can. My question to you is, can you understand what I am saying to you about my position with Merion and that we (Merion and us) are more than capable of getting any of these parcels measured completely accurately by apparently the very surveyors who did those metes and bounds in the first place? How about IF, WHEN that is done we try to get what we and Merion and their surveyors are using with metes and bounds to you and then you can see if your measurements and your totals match their measurements and their totals?

Are you cool with that thought? 

When that time comes and assuming yours match theirs completely perhaps then you and us can totally PROVE to the World of GCA geeks and closet measurers all over the earth how right you can be and then ALL OF US can call you "The Immaculate Google Earthing AND Merion Measurer From GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's Discussion Forum."

Don't you think that is an ultra cool thought too Bryan. If we did it the other way around someone might actually accuse you of sort of backing into the correct measurements like some think the essayist is trying to back into the correct architectural history of Merion East. This way you will have the chance of showing everybody how right you can be the first time around with no coaching or secret information.

It will be like a big game show on the Internet:

"BONG---CORRECT ANSWER! Ladies and gentleman we have a WINNER, Bryan Izatt, the IMMULATE GOOGLE EARTHING MEASURER FROM GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's Discussin Forum!!!!    


or


BONG---WRONG ANSWER! Get that Google Earthing GOLFCLUBATLAS.com Discussion Forum fake measurer and shmuck the hell outta here!   

Tom,

You're holding the cards (close to the vest) so you can take whatever approach you want.  Personally, I'd prefer to do it in parallel with Yerkes and then compare answers.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  Such is life.  If I agree with them then we will have a fact that everyone, on this board (including David), might accept.  Not something done solely in the back room.  I still don't get what you are afraid I'm going to do with the information, if you were to pass it on now.     Try to discredit Yerkes?  Try to claim credit for discovering something? ...........

[Bryan Izatt]

For anyone who may still be unclear on the point, I should say what our new understanding is of something Francis said in his story and apparently MCC did.

He said it was easy to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion of the "L" with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Ave. I think we can fairly safely assume by that ground on the north side of Ardmore Ave he probably meant the app 3 acre tract behind the clubhouse and next to the P&W railroad that belonged to the P&W Railroad.

But we thought for the longest time that when the Thompson Resolution of 4/19/1911 referred to the land "exchange" with land adjoining ALREADY PURCHASED AND the purchase of 3 additional acres for $7,500 that the purchase of the 3 additional acreas was ALSO referring to that 3 acre railroad tract.

It didn't and it wasn't. It was referring to 3 additional acres to the west of HDC residential ground. We think the sum total of both items referred to by the Thompson Resolution to the board on 4/19/1911 was the sum total of what we call the Francis land swap. And the total acreage of the July, 21, 1911 deed passing the 120.1 acres to MCCGA Co. compared to the 117 acres MCC originally agreed to buy from HDC pretty much confirms it.

It also might be very interesting and indicative of when those involved at MCC still referred to the total ground bought as 117 compared to the later increase of three acres and 120.1 (after Lloyd's agreement and after the approval of the Thompson Resolution on 4/19/1911 and after the formal recording of the July 21, 1911 deed). That alone may have some bearing on when the Francis fix idea actually happened!

The app. 3 acre railroad land long term situation is actually pretty funny. In the beginning of May, 1911 MCC or the MCCGA Co. created a lease for that land with the P&W Railroad. That lasted until 1961 when Merion G.C. actually bought that land from the P&W for $11,000. But the funny thing was, according to Merion records, it was someone from Merion in 1975 who just happened to notice the lease payment apparently and wondered about it because apparently Merion had actually thought they owned that land and had bought it way back when in 1911 or something. That is why they say they got around to buying it in 1961 because that is WHEN they realized they hadn't owned it all along.

Tom,

I have no time now, but I will try later to decipher what you are saying here.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

I'm all for seeing thatas well, but David mentioned yesterday that the par five designation was a newspaper error and the hole has always played as a par four,

They therefore would never have measured it "around" the quarry.

Early news accounts of the opening of the course mentioned that although measuring just over 6200 yards, the course had the elasticity built in to be sttetched to 6500 for important competitions.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

I'll double check but I'm almost certain those bunkers were added 12 years later for the 1924 US Am which simply punctuates my original contention concerning the historical drive landing zone.

And yes, the fairways have regrettably narrowed since then.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave,

It was a 433 yard par four.

They didn't measure it "around" the quarry,

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave,

Strangely, that rear boundary for 16 has always been fixed, even though some contend that Merion designated land for the golf course for another 137 yards behind it! 

[Andy Hughes]

One more you might want to try on the 16th is the three shot routing working backward from the green centre to the tee.  Make it work out to 415 or 433 yards and see where that puts the tee.  I think/speculate that if we ever found corroborating information it would be that the tee was at that place in the mid-1910's.

Bryan, I don't believe that can be done with any meaningful accuracy as there would be more than one way to make 3 shots add up to 415 (or 433).

[Mike_Cirba]

Uhh...David,

It was always a par four and it was never measured "around" the quarry.

There is a FIXED LAND BOUNDARY behind the tee that has been there since the course opened. 

Despite the November 1910 Land Plan map.

[Andy Hughes]

And if the hole is 440 as a 2-shotter today to the center of the green, that means it was 405 back then to the center of the green (440 - 35 = 405), which would make it 382 to the front of the green from the tips, and about 375 to from the tips to clear the quarry even if a pansy-waist hitter at Merion who drives it 220 was playing the tippy tips.  Face it, Mike, this was never an insurmountable second shot, even for a panty waist from the tips.

Shiv, where are you getting that 35 yards from?

I agree, Andy, but they're all pretty close no matter which combination of 3 shots you use.  The first time I did it, I came up with 433 on the button, though.    And remember, this is all to the center of the green.
Yep, I think you are right and I got the same results as you, but I am leery of saying 'this is the spot' when I can make that spot be in different locations if I try.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, they did.  You're saying that after a dozen USGA events over 97 years, that tee has been moved back a whopping 7 yards.  Do you really want to stick to nonsense like that?   

David,

If the Merion Land Plan from 1910 had actually been correct, I'm sure the USGA would have it playing tomorrow as a 540 yard par four!  

Unfortunately, or fortunately, they never had that option because that Land Plan was bogus.

Please name ONE OTHER par FOUR on the planet EARTH that ANYONE, ANYWHERE EVER MEASURED as a THREE SHOTTER!!! 

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave,

Honestly, on what planet are you contending that the 16th at Merion was ever measured or played as a three-shotter. 

That's just simply untrue from 1912 onwards.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave,

Honestly, on what planet are you contending that the 16th at Merion was ever measured or played as a three-shotter. 

That's just simply untrue from 1912 onwards.

Mike, the facts simply belie you.  The hole - today - is almost 440 measured as a 2 shotter.  If you're so hot on finding historical records, why don't you go find the 97 years of that tee being moved back less than 7 yards in the aggregate from the days of guttys and wood shafts to today, despite all the re-working and US Opens and Amateurs, etc.   All I'd need to find is anything that indicates that tee being moved back more than 7 yards, and the hole would HAVE TO HAVE BEEN measured as a 3 shotter back then.  You telling me that lengthening never happened?  OK, sure...

Dave,

There is and has always been a hard, fixed, rear boundary.

There is nowhere to go back to...you're wrong.

What do you need to see to prove it?

[Bryan Izatt]

And if the hole is 440 as a 2-shotter today to the center of the green, that means it was 405 back then to the center of the green (440 - 35 = 405), which would make it 382 to the front of the green from the tips, and about 375 to from the tips to clear the quarry even if a pansy-waist hitter at Merion who drives it 220 was playing the tippy tips.  Face it, Mike, this was never an insurmountable second shot, even for a panty waist from the tips.

Shiv, where are you getting that 35 yards from?

I agree, Andy, but they're all pretty close no matter which combination of 3 shots you use.  The first time I did it, I came up with 433 on the button, though.    And remember, this is all to the center of the green.
Yep, I think you are right and I got the same results as you, but I am leery of saying 'this is the spot' when I can make that spot be in different locations if I try.

Andy, I think that the differences in using different three shot scenarios are not very large.  What is the longest three shot scenario and the shortest three shot scenario you can get starting from the same point and going down the middle of th efairway on the first shot?  Now, work backward from the green and show the delta on the tee.

Mike, The picture showed a three shot routing.  How do you know that they measured the two shot routing and used that in claiming it was 433 yards.  Since we think that they walked the measurement, I have wondrous visions of a guy in plus-fours trudging through the quarry and up the embankment counting his steps.  

  

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys,

This is insane, truly.

The hole is, was, and always has been a par four.   From day one.

Just like today's 7th hole, there is NO WAY to go back any further and never has been a way to go back any further.    There is a freaking ROAD BEHIND IT! 

Tillinghast listed it as 415 yards in his opening day account of the course at 6235 yards.

It was always mentioned that they could stretch the course to 6500 yards.

You don't think they could move it to the very tips back and say 433??

The LAND BOUNDARY and measurement aerial that Andy just took PROVES THAT IT WAS THAT LONG if they  had the tee back by the border, which was always the border.

IS THERE A PAR FOUR ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET THAT IS MEASURED AS A THREE SHOT HOLE!?   

Bryan,

That's what surveying equipment is for. 

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm not talking about where the boundary is and always has been.  I'm talking about where the tee was.

Dave,

WHY WOULD THEY NOT MAX THE HOLE OUT FOR THE BEST AMATEURS IN THE WORLD IN 1916?!?!?

WHY WOULD THEY HAVE THEM PLAYING "UP"??

Here's the course in 1924, The tee is LAND LOCKED, but notice the position of the bunkers.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Even David concedes that was a newspaper error.

The hole was never a par five, much less for the US Am.

By the way, let's discuss the news articles about NGLA...I'll be happy to have that discussion because they prove exactly how ridiculously illogical the whole premise of this Merion debate is.

The NGLA news accounts are from two separate sources, including many direct quotes from CB Macdonald.

Perhaps he was lying?? 

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