[Mike_Cirba]

HI Jeff,

That's all very good speculation, as well.   You'll see I added a bit of speculation as an ***EDIT*** to my last post.

I would contend that the 3 acres next to the clubhouse was a logical and obvious choice for a number of reasons including 1) a nice creek, 2) ingress and egress to both sides of the clubhouse, 3) providing more width at the junction of the "L", 4) unimpeded access to the rail line 5) additional acreage for golf holes near the fixed point clubhouse.

As far as the Barker routing, I'm not sure it ever made it to Merion.   It was sent to Connell, and in the same July 1, 1910 Site Committee report to the Board I copied above they embedded a copy of Barker's letter on a Site Committee report, but didn't refer to the routing also being attached.

They simply said that; "Mr. Connell, on his own account, obtained from H.H. Barker, the Garden City professional, a report, of which the following is a copy:", and then proceeded to type out the brief Barker letter.

No mention of an attachment or enclosure.

Oh...Barker did tell them that based on his single day visit that the land was "in every way adapted to the making of a first class course, comparing most favorably with the best courses in this country, such as Myopia and Garden City", and went on to add that "from my experience I believe that proposed course could be constructed at less expense than any I have heretofore gone over."

I bet he said that to all the girls!   

[TEPaul]

"Hopefully, someone will put everything documented in chronlogical order.
That would help in determining what happened."



Patrick:

MY GOD, it's so amazing that you would say something that dumb at this point. That's all we've been doing is putting actual recorded facts in documented CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. That is what this TIMELINE thread is all about.

You are just so notoriously light on research and understanding the details of it you're just a waste of time on here. That remark of yours is incredible, and it shows you obviously don't read these posts because you sure don't understand what they've said and what's going on here!

[TEPaul]

"***EDIT*** I just went back and see that Bryan Izatt measured the land of the Johnson Farm north of Ardmore Ave. but west of Golf House road at 22 acres.   The Johnson Farm itself was just over 140 acres, which means if the original HDC offer was simply for the portions south of Ardmore Avenue, and the northeast section above Ardmore Avenue, that would be around 118 acres total.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but it is certainly possible that this is the portion of land M&W were asked to consider and report on. (drawn crudely in black)"



You're not sure if it's RELEVENT??

Of course it's relevent! All one needs to do is follow the timeline of what MCC and HDC were doing from around July 1910 to about the middle of December 1910 to understand just how relevent it really is. Whether they had their eye on the Dallas Estate in June or July 1910 or whether they didn't the fact is when the Dallas Estate was finally nailed down by HDC around the beginning of Nov. 1910 that is practically the same day and certainly the same week Lloyd and Connell completed their negotiations and the actual formal offer was made by Nickolson to Evans through Lloyd and MCC's board voted on it and accepted the offer to purchase 117 acres!!

Then when MCC came in with their working topo contour maps (probably in the end of Dec or beginning of Jan 1911) with that proposed road drawn on the map to scale that they used to route and design numerous courses and plans on throughout the winter and early spring of 1911, one needs to realize that the land to the west of that road and between the western boundary at the top of the "L" of the old Johnson farm was approximately 21 acres that I said back on post #652, 656 and 670 I am convinced it was!

As I said in those posts back there:

23 acres=the western section of the old Johnson farm never considered for golf
140.137 acres=the entire Johnson farm
140-23=117 acres

Remove that app 21 acres from the 117 I mentioned on posts #652, 656, and 670 of the old Johnson farm to the west of the proposed road from the course plan (as it was on their working topo survey maps);

117-21=96 acres

ADD the Dallas estate (21 acres)

96+21=117 acres

ADD the exchange AND 3 acre additional purchased acres to the golf course land via the Francis fix idea gotten along the extension of Golf House Road through it's redelineation from the working topo survey maps to its actual metes and bounds "as built" delineation (Thompson Resolution)----I've been saying this for over a year now!

117+3=120.1 acres of the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA


THIS is why I said in posts #652, 656 and 670 that when the metes and bounds of Golf House Road are measured with and enclosed with that old Johnson boundary (after the Francis fix) the area in there is no longer app 21 acres BUT 18!! (posts #652, 656 and 670!)


(of course if the road actually crossed over the old Johnson farm western boundary at the top of the "L" and into the Taylor estate a professional surveyor can easily find the small remainder).


There is no question in my mind what this serves to do is set that Francis idea and fix inside at some point the TIMEFRAME of Dec. 19, 1910 AND April 19, 1911 (but much more likely before April 6, 1911) and it is all reflected in the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA. If it happened before that none of this makes any sense and I guarantee you when a professional surveyor does these metes and bounds measurments THEY WILL match my incremental results above of 21 and then 18!

I've been saying this for 2-3 weeks and so far no one seems to understand it. This is the only place a boundary adjustment could have happened and the Francis boundary adjustment is the only one ever mentioned in this timeframe so it is the only one that could've happened in this timeframe! If Bryan measures the right boundaries and he measures well I'm convinced he will come to the same results. But if he does he still may not quite understand what it really means! We'll see.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

This is NOT an attempt to highjack a thread and make a point. But you are attempting to use as "proof" a quote from someone and are wrongly attributing it.

You stated that Tillinghast "wrote almost certainly as "Far and Sure" that Hugh Wilson and Committee..."

Tillinghast was DEFINITELY NOT Far and Sure. In the winter of 1912, & I shared this point both on here and in private with some who were interested in this idea, Far and Sure wrote that he spent a good deal of time in Pinehurst in the WINTER of 1911... THis is the "smoking gun" proof that F&S could NOT be Tilly as Tilly did not travel anywhere other than locally that winter. Among other things that ptove this were several articles that cite golf tournaments he played in in Pa. & Jersey and how he spent the rest of his time at work on SHAWNEE which was to Open in May. In addition to directly overseeing its construction, he also served on the Board of Directors for the Shawnee Country Club and was involved in recruiting members for it. Today everyone thinks of Shawnee as simply a resort course, yet when it opened it was the course for the Shawnee CC that allowed the Buckwood Inn to use it for resort play.

Tilly could not be in two places at one time... he is not F&S...

I know that you & I kid back and forth about this point, but this discussion is too serious and important in its issues from Merion's perspective and those individiuals involved to not challenge this. Issues of veracity have been thrown about too often on these threads; that you were incorrect on the point shouldn't matter and correcting it immediately should simply serve as proof of that. As everyone who comments on them has already experienced, if t's are not crossed & i's dotted, they become "fair game" for attack.

That should not be the case, nor should it be in this issue. I can vouch for your own veracity in research and passion for what you believe is proper "interpretation" of historical events are. I can do the same for David Moriarity and Tom Paul & all the others involved as well.

An "oops" is just an "oops" and nothing more and has nothing whatsoever to do with the veracity of any other statement presented as fact...

[TEPaul]

To unravel this riddle of how the Francis land swap idea was actually effectuated and in what timeframe it happened we definitely do not need "Far and Sure's" articles whether he was Tilly or whether he wasn't!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You might not "need" what Far & Sure wrote to prove the answer, but it certainly was properly used by Mike and backs up his interpretation of events very well despite the incorrect attribution. My point was that an oops of that nature does not take away the veracity of the statement, and in this case, clearly lends strong supporting evidence in proof of viewpoint.

[henrye]

On a related note, I wonder why they hesitated to publish CBM's letter?  My guess is it had more in it than a little general soil advice, perhaps critiquing fellow gca Barker for his one day job, or perhaps mentioning the alternate site, or something else they didn't feel comfortable talking about.  Since the actual letter says nothing about not being published, its not hard to imagine old CBM telling them personally that he would write a letter, but its not for publication, and they would all know why.

Yes, I know its tough to add even more speculation to this thread, but what the heck.

Another reason, and to add some total speculation, is that perhaps M&W had suggested some kind of routing that included pieces of land which they did not have under their option/control yet.  Can't imagine they would want a document out there showing proposed golf development on someone else's land.

[TEPaul]

There is no need to speculate what the Macdonald letter "might have said" because we have the transcription of the entire Macdonald letter that was transcribed into the board meeting minutes. Probably just another logical reason why the board meeting minutes of some clubs are considered by them to be PRIVATE!!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Do you mean I finally figured it out on my own without anyone telling me?!   

HOLY COW!!!  I may just have to go play golf today instead of trying to wrap my mind about trying to fit the true facts into the speculation of the essay!!   

Honestly, Tom...I may be thick as a brick at times but I didn't get what you were trying to explaiin before this.

I did get the part about the land adjustment along Golf House Road, but now the rest makes absolutely, crystlline perfect sense.

How long do you think it will take for the others to reach the same conclusion?   


Phil,

I agree...we don't need what "Far and Sure" said to supplement what Tillinghast under his own byline very clearly said.   

While we won't agree on this one, please note my edit above, and let's keep the conversation focused on the proven facts, as you suggest.

Thanks

[Jeff_Brauer]

***EDIT*** I just went back and see that Bryan Izatt measured the land of the Johnson Farm north of Ardmore Ave. but west of Golf House road at 22 acres.   The Johnson Farm itself was just over 140 acres, which means if the original HDC offer was simply for the portions south of Ardmore Avenue, and the northeast section above Ardmore Avenue, that would be around 118 acres total.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but it is certainly possible that this is the portion of land M&W were asked to consider and report on. (drawn crudely in black)

TePaul,

Actually, if people don't understand your point it may be because its hard to follow in written word, so I enclose Mike C's map from a post above so you can educate me with a "purty picture."


From your post directly above, you say:


140.137 acres=the entire Johnson farm
23 acres=the western section of the old Johnson farm never considered for golf
140-23=117 acres offered to MCC, generally represented by the black line above.

Am I correct so far?  The next part confuses me, though. I interpret that to be the land between the red line and black line on the drawing above.  Is that correct? If so, explain the 21 and 23 acre references which appear to apply to the same parcel coming and going.  I am also confused by your mention of "as it was on their working topo maps" because unless I missed it, you haven't found those yet.  Am I correct there?

Remove that app 21 acres from the 117 I mentioned on posts #652, 656, and 670 of the old Johnson farm to the west of the proposed road from the course plan (as it was on their working topo survey maps);

117-21=96 acres

ADD the Dallas estate (21 acres)

96+21=117 acres

ADD the exchange AND 3 acre additional purchased acres to the golf course land via the Francis fix idea gotten along the extension of Golf House Road through it's redelineation from the working topo survey maps to its actual metes and bounds "as built" delineation (Thompson Resolution)----I've been saying this for over a year now!

117+3=120.1 acres of the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA

You say the timing of the Dallas Estate doesn't matter.  However, given the similarities of the acreages it might.

In short, in the scenario you lay out above, I don't see a land swap and a purchase of 3 more acres by MCC. I see them giving back substantial acreage to HDC.  Can you show me where it might be?

However, if you believe they were figuring on the 21 Acre Dallas Estate as part of the original "117 acres" - (21 Dallas Estate and about 96 from HDC) from July 1910 on, then the blue line on the drawing above makes more sense as the original offering - if the "L" offered to MCC stopped at Haverford College, then the land exchange along Golf House Road looks to be about even, about like shown by Mike C in post 178 and reproduced below.  In fact, the land swap looks equal and then the triangle looks like,- voila, 3 Acres. And, if fits with Francis' triangle story.

Please edumacate me, because I am one who is confused by your math and theory on this.  Thanks in advance.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I think the reason I backed into the same thing as you did earlier is that I didn't realize (it hadn't occurred to me) until yesterday that this "nearly 120 acres" that David tried to turn into proof of some existing routing specific to that property size was mentioned TWO DAYS AFTER MACDONALD WAS THERE AND WROTE HIS SINGLE-PAGE GENERAL ESSAY THAT HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ROUTING THE GOLF COURSE.

Given that fact, and given that the Dallas Estate purchase was months down the road, I began to wonder if M&W were even looking at the same overall land for a golf course that exists today.  

THAT is when it made sense to me that they were probably looking SOLELY at the dimensions of the Johnson Farm, LESS the land west of today's Golf House Road, where the northern much larger boundaries of the two adjoining farms would have made sense to keep together for housing (most is too narrow to support golf anyway!).  

Then, not even thinking about what you said previously, I went and found Bryan's map where he divided things up into JW, and XL, and all that stuff, and see that THE JOHNSON FARMLAND left for golf WORKED OUT TO appox 117 acres!

[Mike_Cirba]

(RAISING HAND)

oOOO Jeff...pick me...pick me!! 

Here's the land before purchase.   The "Johnson Farm" is the land marked "Haverford Terrace - PHiladelphia and Ardmore Land CO."

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's the 117 acres that Macdonald and Whigham looked at in June 1910...the southern and northeastern sections of the Johnson Farm.

The rest of the Johnson Farm is west of that little area marked in Purple and south of the two larger farm masses clearly being kept by HDC for real estate.

[Mike_Cirba]

At some point, someone decides that the Dallas Estate would make a logical extension.  Almost certainly someone is starting to realize the limitations of the existing property for golf and that gaining more east/west real estate south of Ardmore Avenue is going to be necessary.   HDC completes the purchase for it in early November, 1910.

I have that marked in light blue.

If that 21 acres were added for golf, it would make a total of 138 acres for the course, more than they think they need, especially once once considers that every acre not used for golf is someone's profit in real estate..

[TEPaul]

"How long do you think it will take for the others to reach the same conclusion?      "


Michael:

I have absolutely no idea but that was why I wanted to go through that exercise step by step with Bryan Izatt. Had we been able to do that I believe a lot of people would and could begin to see what it means.

Congratulations, by the way!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I understood that, but as Henry E said, perhaps CBM realized early that they needed the Dallas Estate, but wouldn't put that in writring so the price wouldn't go up.  And, it wouldn't take a lot more than one trip and map review to see that 1) If they wanted to use that farm house as a clubhouse and wanted returning nines, or2) that the little wedge between Ardmore and the Dallas Estate was basically unusable.

Both suggest that the Dallas Estate was under consideration pretty darn early in the process, and why they said they would more likely need 120 acres over 100 to build their course.  And that wouldn't take a CBM routing to figure out!

And, my underlying question to TePaul remains - if there are 21 or 23 acres of the Johnson Farm west of the Golf House Road that was on their maps TePaul has never seen, how did they effect a land swap if they were looking at the property line you outline above?

Are you saying that when they added the Dallas Estate in Nov 1910, they quickly drew that approximate road to take about 21 acres back to HDC?  And then swapped and finalized from there?  

If someone has explained that, I am sorry, but I have missed it. Since you are more graphically inclined that Tom, perhaps you could sketch out what land was swapped if MCC started with all the land west of GH road.  Again, thanks in advance.

[Mike_Cirba]

During final negotiations between Connell and Lloyd, that NOW INCLUDE THE DALLAS ESTATE, a proposed boundary between real estate and golf course is drawn, in the form of a long, curving, curvilinear roadway to be built, show here in red, and marked on the proposed November 15, 1910 Land Plan as "Approximate Location of Road".







At some subsequent routing point, it is determined, probably because of the quarry, that the land up north is too narrow to fit the final holes properly, and thus, the change in the delineation of the road and the now infamous, "Francis Land Swap" along that proposed road boundary. (represented very poorly below via the green line indicating the original "approximate location of road"

[TEPaul]

"generally represented by the black line above.

Am I correct so far?"

Mr. Jeffrey:

No you're not correct so far. That black line would have to follow the delineation of the proposed road as it appeared on the Wilson Committee's working topo survey maps to enclose 117 acres. What I believe would be enclosed in the black line you have on post #1398 would be app. 138 acres (117+21=138 acres).


Jeffrey;

It is always hard for me to imagine how anyone is looking at all this at any particular time but I suspect one thing that may be throwing a lot of people off is the fact that when Francis or others at MCC such as Thompson talked about the "land they owned or had purchased" they were sort of simultaneously talking about the 117 acres for the course as well as the entire 161 acres that Lloyd had purchased sort of for MCC in Dec. 19, 1911 so that MCC could find the ideal routing and course design they were working on between Dec. 19, 1911 and that time when they offered a single plan up for board approval in April 1911. Of course we know now that that final plan incoporated a 3 acre increase from 117 to 120.1 that grabbed 3 more acres to the western side of that proposed road on their working topo survey maps.

This is why a low wattage mind like Moriarty apparently asked how can someone swap land for land they have already purchased? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I think where you're confused is that the area I have enclosed in black IS 117 ACRES!   It's ALL JOHNSON FARM LAND!

THIS is the area that M&W looked at it in June 1910!

[Mike_Cirba]

"How long do you think it will take for the others to reach the same conclusion?      "


Michael:

I have absolutely no idea but that was why I wanted to go through that exercise step by step with Bryan Izatt. Had we been able to do that I believe a lot of people would and could begin to see what it means.

Congratulations, by the way!

Thanks, Tom...did I explain it correctly??

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike, I understood that the black line is 117-118 acres.  I still don't understand TePaul's contention about there "Must have been 21 acres" within that conforming to some road that we aren't sure ever existed on anyones contour maps.  The only road we know is the one on the Nov. 1910 concept plan, right?

Actually, the more I noodle on that, the more sense it makes, especially with the timing of bringing in the Dallas Estate land right around the time of that concept drawing.  They took until November 1910, to get the basic property outline, being quiet about it all so that the Dallas Estate deal went down easier and cheaper.

That concept plan was drawn quickly and with the flexibility to change Golf House Road between HDC and MCC.  That road on the 11-10-10 rendering/concept plan was drawn right after the Dallas acquistion, SPECIFICALLY AND PERHAPS ONLY TO to bring the acreage back down by the 21 acres of the newly acquired Dallas Estate, as a general map for the members to vote on and finalize a LAND DEAL, but was not intended to be a final plan.

As they routed the course in early 1911, they ran into the problems of not enough width in the existing triangle, and adjusted it along the road.  However, when all was said and done, they needed yet another 3 acres.  That one still troubles me a bit though, but maybe not that much.  It wouldn't be the first or the last time a golf course routing simply needed to squeeze on the real estate a bit and developers usually get pretty uptight about giving up land for golf.  I think that was the case because of the extra cost involved in buying those three extra acres.

Again, correct me if I am wrong. I would still like a map of where TePaul thinks this mythical 21 acres of the Johnson Farm is, and whether its 21 or 23 acres. I just don't understand that part of the explanation.
  

[Mike_Cirba]

"How long do you think it will take for the others to reach the same conclusion?      "

Michael:

I have absolutely no idea but that was why I wanted to go through that exercise step by step with Bryan Izatt. Had we been able to do that I believe a lot of people would and could begin to see what it means.

Tom,

Although I didn't realize the details, I did realize that you were hoping Bryan would figure it out without the metes and bounds because that would show;

1) How logical it is

2) How consistent with the timeline.

3) Since everyone knows Bryan is unbiased, it would carry more weight.

Some people will probably think you fed me the answers, and some will certainly argue that.

In either case, I feel better because it sure answered some things I couldn't quite get straight in my head!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually, the more I noodle on that, the more sense it makes, especially with the timing of bringing in the Dallas Estate land right around the time of that concept drawing.  They took until November 1910, to get the basic property outline, being quiet about it all so that the Dallas Estate deal went down easier and cheaper.

That concept plan was drawn quickly and with the flexibility to change Golf House Road between HDC and MCC.  That road on the 11-10-10 rendering/concept plan was drawn right after the Dallas acquistion, SPECIFICALLY AND PERHAPS ONLY TO to bring the acreage back down by the 21 acres of the newly acquired Dallas Estate, as a general map for the members to vote on and finalize a LAND DEAL, but was not intended to be a final plan.

As they routed the course in early 1911, they ran into the problems of not enough width in the existing triangle, and adjusted it along the road.  However, when all was said and done, they needed yet another 3 acres.  That one still troubles me a bit though, but maybe not that much.  It wouldn't be the first or the last time a golf course routing simply needed to squeeze on the real estate a bit and developers usually get pretty uptight about giving up land for golf.  I think that was the case because of the extra cost involved in buying those three extra acres.

Jeff,

BINGO!!!! 

I'll let Tom explain the part about the 21 acres to 18 acres along the western boundary of the road.

***EDIT***...coming right up on the map request!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Actually both scenarios are still possible in my mind, and I am sorry if I appear to be flopping like a tuna on the dock.

If the land deal is going down in Nov 1910, with HDC acquiring the Dallas Estate, most likely after consideration of the search committee and help from CBM (which was not published specifically to keep the price down - hey, maybe the real letter was destroyed and replaced with the soils/agronomy for the "official record" as part of the secrecy!) then they could have quickly either:

1) Traded out the northern most rectangle of the Johnson Farm, adjacent to Haverford College, which was almost exactly the same acreage as the Dallas Estate, or

2) Drawn a dividing road along the curving lines they anticipated for their houses, and generally move it east until they got the MCC parcel back to the desired and initially agreed upon acreage so they could do the land deal, even knowing they would move the road further.

In either case, MCC might have had to buy 3 extra acreas.  The curving road on the 11-10-10 plan suggests no. 2.  The Francis triangle story suggests perhaps No. 1, and they could have still agreed to form fit the road to the final golf course layout.

Either way, it supports my contention that fixing the date of the triangle story doesn't necessarily prove that CBM did or did not route the golf course.  In the scenario above, it seems clear to me that DM could be right and it WAS the entire triangle, but that it happened in 1911 after everyone returned from Xmas break and got down to work.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

The area that Tom and I are contending must have been 21 acres, later reduced to 18 after the reconfiguration of the road during the Francis Land Swap is marked in GREEN.




The metes and bounds measurements should prove this out, with the only consideration being if any of the golf course crossed beyond the edge of the original Johnson Farmland measurements into the Taylor property to the west, as they may slgihtly in stretches along Golf House Road.

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