Merion's Early Timeline

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike that is silly.  If they expanded the course north of the road, they could have done so in a manner by which the the number of properties bordering the course would increase.  Plus they still could have bought the Dallas estate for housing, and it would have given then even more lots directly bordering the course.   Plus they could have started earlier, as opposed to waiting to clandestinely obtain the Dallas Estate.

David,

On 17 disconnected acres you want to build more homes??   Nice community THAT would be! 

Man, I'm glad you weren't there laying this out!   Are you from the Ted Robinson school of Golf Course Aesthetics and Land Planning? 

David, if they wanted to find the best land for the golf course out of the 330+ acres, the golf course would run all through the HDC property..it wouldn't have been divided neatly along historical boundary lines.

[DMoriarty]

What are you talking about?   The course would be just as contiguous, but they would have more land along the course.

Never mind.  I am sure that it will take another 60 posts for to understand how this could be.

[Mike_Cirba]

*

[Mike_Cirba]

What are you talking about?   The course would be just as contiguous, but they would have more land along the course.

Never mind.  I am sure that it will take another 60 posts for to understand how this could be.

David,

Continue with your insults.

I criticize your theory, you personally insult me.

So it goes.

Everyone who doesn't agree that you've proven a thing, even new guys weighing in like Nialll or Peter Palotta, are "erroneously mistaken".

They must just be holding onto myths and legends and childish dreams because they obviously do not have the intelligence of someone like you David...the only one on the planet besides Tom MacWood who can truly understand and interpret all of the FACTS and come to your masterful, insightful conclusions.

So, fire away, David.

At least being on the receiving end of your continuous stream of arrogant and condescending insults, I know I'm in very good company.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

To be fair, you've been an obstructionist from day one (1).

You're certainly not a disinterested, impartial observer.

And, from time to time, you've engaged in the same conduct as TEPaul and David Moriarty, albeit, choosing to solely chastize David.

When Jim Sullivan, Bryan Izatt and others attempt to redirect the "TRIO" toward civility and scholarship, it lasts for all of one hour.

Please, stop making posts you KNOW are disengenuous and help TEPaul and David pursue information that would be valuable to the discovery process, irrespective of whose side is aided/assisted.

Media, PA  should be your first stop.
If I lived closer, I would go myself.

Thanks

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul.  
Bryan can do what he wants.  Whatever he does, I am sure he will agree that your demands and conditions are childish.   Back to your ball analogy, why are you afraid to let all the players into the game?"



Good, he sure can do what he wants to do and let's not assume what he thinks of what I'm proposing we do with this excercise of mine.

I'm not afraid to let players into the game at all but if a player like you gets into the game I think most realize it is a total waste of time for Merion to engage in any way with a couple of transparent historical revisionists who know nothing about Merion's history in the first place, like you and your buddy, and for us too. You're right, directly conversing between us should probably stop here and now. This is an opinion DG and to put my opinion of you and your ideas on here definitely does not require that you and I need to directly converse. Ultimately, most clubs like Merion just don't want to see their histories dragged through the mud for no reason the way you two bozos have been trying to do with Wilson. In the end I think you know both you and your opinions on Merion don't matter anyway; never will; and that's probably why you've become so hysterical, attempting to fault everyone else other than yourself.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

To be fair, you've been an obstructionist from day one (1).

You're certainly not a disinterested, impartial observer.

And, from time to time, you've engaged in the same conduct as TEPaul and David Moriarty, albeit, choosing to solely chastize David.

When Jim Sullivan, Bryan Izatt and others attempt to redirect the "TRIO" toward civility and scholarship, it lasts for all of one hour.

Please, stop making posts you KNOW are disengenuous and help TEPaul and David pursue information that would be valuable to the discovery process, irrespective of whose side is aided/assisted.

Media, PA  should be your first stop.
If I lived closer, I would go myself.

Thanks

Patrick,

Agreed, and I would say the same about you so we're even.

Please see my suggestion on the other thread on how we move this forward.

I told Bryan I'd get those prints for him, but he told me he had enlisted another source.

I asked him again after he said that, so if he still needs someone to make the trip, I volunteer.

It's way past time to wrap this thing up.

[DMoriarty]

I've tried to address all of Niall's points and will continue to do so, within reason.

Peter Palatta is hardly a new contributor.  I've tried to answer his questions in the past ad nauseum both on and off the website.   Is latest series of 20 or so questions is well beyond the scope of anything I have time to deal with in this format.  

As for holding onto legends, when I asked Niall what facts supported his claims, he referred me to merion's website.

As for my insults of you, you've earned them with your dishonsty and disingenuous posts.   Like now.  Do you really not understand how you could get more course side property by expanding west, on the north side of ardmore avenue (into the optioned land) and by using the Dallas estate for housing?  

[Mike_Cirba]

As for my insults of you, you've earned them with your dishonsty and disingenuous posts.   Like now.  Do you really not understand how you could get more course side property by expanding west, on the north side of ardmore avenue (into the optioned land) and by using the Dallas estate for housing?  

David,

All that idea does is propagate the problem of Ardmore Avenue intersecting through a greater part of the course.

While Richard Francis and the Merion committee may have thought the road made a fine hazard, I'm sure even those novices knew that having to deal with it on more than three holes bordered on overkill.

It would also segregate the Dallas estate from the rest of the planned housing community, and little things like water, sewer, electric and other things we take for granted today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I may be biased, but, I don't think I'm qualified to be in your category.
In fact, I find myself light years behind you

As to moderators, I'd be content to let Jim Sullivan and Bryan Izatt conduct the thread.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

I may be biased, but, I don't think I'm qualified to be in your category.
In fact, I find myself light years behind you

As to moderators, I'd be content to let Jim Sullivan and Bryan Izatt conduct the thread.

Patrick,

I'm content to let it be Sully, Bryan, and Tom.

I think we'll all get to the bottom of this, even if it means that the answers coming out don't provide enough info to make an informed conclusion.

At least we'll know what we don't know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Asking TEPaul to be a moderator is like putting the Fox in charge of the Hen house.

How can you even suggest that ?

It's not the dumbest thing you've suggested, but, it comes close.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Asking TEPaul to be a moderator is like putting the Fox in charge of the Hen house.

How can you even suggest that ?

It's not the dumbest thing you've suggested, but, it comes close.

Patrick,

I'm not suggesting Tom Paul to be the moderator.

I'm suggesting that a new thread is started that features Sully moderating a discussion between Tom Paul and Bryan Izatt.

The usual suspects can't weigh in, and that includes me and you.

Others can weigh in, but with questions only.   No editorial commentary or introduction of "facts".   

If Sully thinks someone crosses that bound, he tosses them.   No questions, no second chances.

What do you think?

[DMoriarty]

As for my insults of you, you've earned them with your dishonsty and disingenuous posts.   Like now.  Do you really not understand how you could get more course side property by expanding west, on the north side of ardmore avenue (into the optioned land) and by using the Dallas estate for housing?  

David,

All that idea does is propagate the problem of Ardmore Avenue intersecting through a greater part of the course.

While Richard Francis and the Merion committee may have thought the road made a fine hazard, I'm sure even those novices knew that having to deal with it on more than three holes bordered on overkill.

It would also segregate the Dallas estate from the rest of the planned housing community, and little things like water, sewer, electric and other things we take for granted today.

This is exactly what I was afraid of.

First you came up with the theory based on the economics of the development.    I explained to you the problem with your theory, and asked you whether you now see that.   YOU IGNORED MY QUESTION and just moved on to your next few baseless justifications.  

No more holes would have had to go across Ardmore.   And the Dallas estate was across the road from the rest of the development.

Jim's point is valid.  There is no necessary reason from the developers perspective to use the Dallas estate for golf and a few reasons not to.   But they chose it nonetheless.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

You can probably even convince me that it should be a cage match, with all of the contestants locked in there until a resolution is reached.   

David,

We're arguing nonsense.   

No "special land selected by a previously routed golf course" uses historical property boundary lines around the entire property except in the one instance where a "approximate" boundary is drawn to delineate between the proposed golf course land and a proposed new real estate development.

Let's move on to see if we can't agree on something that will possibly resolve all of this idle and useless chatter and speculation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Asking TEPaul to be a moderator is like putting the Fox in charge of the Hen house.

How can you even suggest that ?

It's not the dumbest thing you've suggested, but, it comes close.

Patrick,

I'm not suggesting Tom Paul to be the moderator.

I'm suggesting that a new thread is started that features Sully moderating a discussion between Tom Paul and Bryan Izatt.

The usual suspects can't weigh in, and that includes me and you.

Others can weigh in, but with questions only.   No editorial commentary or introduction of "facts".   

If Sully thinks someone crosses that bound, he tosses them.   No questions, no second chances.

What do you think?

Mike,

To be honest, I wouldn't consider the format until after TEPaul supplies Bryan with the Metes and Bounds.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I don't understand what you guys are afraid of?

[DMoriarty]

We're arguing nonsense.   

No "special land selected by a previously routed golf course" uses historical property boundary lines around the entire property except in the one instance where a "approximate" boundary is drawn to delineate between the proposed golf course land and a proposed new real estate development.

One of us is.   

The original property was the Johnson farm.   The only parts of it that remained were:

1.  The part adjoining haverford college. 
2.  Maybe the southern border, (but this is in doubt.)
3.  The border the rest of the way around was changed to suit the golf course. 

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

You're right...let's drop it.

Patrick,

I'm completely willing to turn over this thread to just Bryan Izatt and Tom Paul to finish their discussion.

If Bryan does not have the metes and bounds by the weekend, I will drive to Media, walk into the prothonatary's office and say;

"Where's the Metes?" 

..and then provide them to Bryan forthwith, in accurate and complete fashion.

I am CHALLENGING ALL OF THE REST OF YOU to butt out, as well.

Does anyone here think we can all shut up for a few days and let this thing work itself out for better or worse?

Frankly, I don't think you guys can do it.

Prove me wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Let's get the Metes and Bounds, let Bryan do his calculations, present his conclusion and see where that takes us.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Let's get the Metes and Bounds, let Bryan do his calculations, present his conclusion and see where that takes us.

Patrick,

Remember the story of "Bre'r Rabbit".

[TEPaul]

"I'm completely willing to turn over this thread to just Bryan Izatt and Tom Paul to finish their discussion."


Thank you Mike:

I believe if Bryan and I can just go through this excercise of mine and it flows through and concludes as I think it might and should I firmly believe this thread will be treated to a remarkable example of how to solve for the X factor with the unique circumstances of what seems to be ALL the factual GIVENS with Merion East between 1910 and 1911, including a fairly long run of identical metes and bounds on two separate deeds.

If Bryan and I agree and come to the same incremental acreage tract, parcel or plot results at the end of that excercise then he will get all the metes and bounds he wants from me and we can back-check the excercise and confirm it with his GOOGLE EARTH measurments and a professional surveyor's measurements.

If the excercise does not result in agreement in incremental acreage results between us then he can have all the metes and bounds he cares to measure anyway. But at this point, I would bet a lot of money that when the Wilson Committee began routing and designing in 1911 after Lloyd took the deed to 161 acres with 117 acres exactly allotted to the golf course there were app. 21 acres in that JW area of Bryan's and when Lloyd passed the deed over to MCCGA on July 21, 1911 there were only app. 18 acres in that JW area of Bryan's.

Was that triangle Francis described the entire result of his idea and the land swap? That's possible but unlikely. More probably is that it happened up and down the entire length of Club House Road. Nevertheless even if the so-called triangle was the extent and result of it all that does not mean it happened BEFORE Dec. 19, 1910 and certainly not before Nov. 15, 1910 and there is a ton of reasons in the records of MCC for that.

[DMoriarty]

Can anyone specifically explain what it is that TEPaul thinks he is going to prove?  I've asked a number of times yet no answer has been forthcoming. 

[TEPaul]

Sure. The excercise should prove the only specific area WHERE the land swap could have happened, and it should explain the only timeframe within which it could've logically happened.

If you would like to have any details of why that is very likely the case then ask someone else to ask me or perhaps Bryan, Moriarty! Or alternatively just leave Bryan and I alone on a thread dedicated to this and just watch without either of us having to deal with your attempts to sidetrack our discussion. 

Can you do that and if not, why not? Is there something you think you stand to lose with Bryan Izatt and I having a discussion between us without your constant crap?

If you can't or won't do that then I will suggest to him that we take it private while we resolve it so we won't have to deal with your distractions, deceptions, insults, and just general obstructionist riff-raff which you've been engaging in on here for years now!


PS:
By the way, these couple of threads really do flow by quick and I just noticed a few things you said on the "Merion Memories" thread today.

How you answered Peter Pallotta's incredibly good post #189 with your post #192 shows that you aren't worth a damn when it comes to any attempt at a construcive discussion (and that includes your responses to the likes of Niall Carlton and Bradley Anderson and a few others I will name later) but some of the other posts of yours to Cirba and a few others including about me if not off this website by sunrise tomorrow are going to take you off GOLFCLUBATLAS.com permanently.

I will guarantee that!

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

The road exists in the 1911 photo I posted that shows the huge protective mound behind the 10th green as well as the raw, unbunkered 18th green and 14th tee.

From that pic, one can see the "bow-in" of the road down across from the clubhouse.

I'm not sure that helps nail it down, though.

Mike,

Could you post the picture again.  I'm not sure which one you are referring to.  Your 1911 date seems to conflict with Tom's 1913-14 date.

Tom,

So, the road was built after the course was designed, built and opened for play?

Mike,

I may have missed it, with all the friendly "banter" in the subsequent posts, but could you repost the picture and date it.  Thanks.