This isn't ABOUT Merion but it is ABOUT threads on here about it.

[TEPaul]

I see some on here on other threads joking about the Merion threads over the years and how heated and maybe seemingly dynamic and personal they can become.

I see some mentioning or maybe joking that they should be removed from this website or even have been removed. I'm not aware any Merion thread ever has been removed from this site or any posts in one, at least not by GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's administrators.

So I was wondering, are the people on here who joke about them and particularly that they should be or might be removed actually joking or are they serious?

I'd like to know for sure because it would probably influence the way I participate on here (hopefully benefically).

Personally, I think many of those Merion threads are the most interesting threads this site has ever had because they really do get down to the nitty gritty of what goes on off this website and in the rest of the world and how many of the clubs and people from those clubs who we talk about on here or want to talk about look at this website, think about it, discuss it off this site and deal with or work with this site, or of course, decide not to do that and their reasons why.

It has always interested me, and pretty much amused me too, how so many on here, particularly some on here who are long term veterans of this site get all concerned and worked up if anyone uses this website to gain ACCESS to just PLAY various courses in perhaps a way this site and its administrators don't like or don't intend the site to be used for.

But I can tell you one thing with real assurance; that kind of access seeking on here to just play a golf course, and even if one goes about it all wrong on here is about 1/1000 of the concern to these clubs and the people who belong to them and know them compared to some of the things that have gone on in that vein in these Merion threads. The reason is obvious---if you gain access to play any club or even try to and something goes awry or you offend someone over there all you are affecting really is just one or a few members basically and that is never much of a concern to a club as a whole, but that is definitely not the case with what goes on with some of these Merion threads and access seeking of material and information and virtually demanding on here they turn over things they may not care to for public consumption and discussion on here for whatever their reasons. The latter can get right into the actual administration of these clubs and the administrators of these clubs and if that is seen to be negative from their perspective it is never a good thing for them or for us or anything we try to do on here.

So I'm wondering what others on here think about all this. Not just the personal problems participants on here sometimes have with one another ON THIS WEBSITE alone but how some of the things I just mentioned above affect the clubs themselves and sometimes as a whole or even from an administration perspective and consequently affect this website too and what it can and can't have from them, particularly information-wise.

Some of whom I believe are the the best contributors on this website don't think the Merion threads should be removed, they say they actually find them, or at least some of their information fascinating. I admire those participants and I don't think something like those Merion threads should ever be removed. I think they are some of the best content this site has ever seen, even with the occasional contentiousness of participants on here.

What do you think? Should they be removed; should they never be removed; are they valuable to you for architectural understanding and the dynamics and history of golf and architecture or aren't they?

Thanks, I hope a lot of people respond no matter what they think because I, for one, think it's very important to the future of this website and what it can and can't be.

[Tom Huckaby]

I infrequently joke about the Merion threads because I know almost all of the participants.  While it pains me at times to see how you get at each other throats, it also makes for a lot of unintentional comedy.

 

But should they be removed?  No freakin' way.  In terms of architectural study - and though I bitch about this and say it's not my bag and that I'd sooner break my legs than walk a course without playing it, well... that is the main point of this site - these threads are absolute gold-mines.  I have no clue if you all will come to any conclusions or consensus (the betting man says no to that), but the nuggets unearthed have been absolutely priceless.

So keep at it, I say.

No large comments about access-seeking btw... talk about a topic that has been beaten to death worse than Merion.  Most here have class and treat the whole thing correctly; there will always be a few bad apples who blow it.  So it has been, so it shall always be.

TH

[Jed Peters]

Merion--isn't that the course that CB MacDonald did? Or was it MacKenzie? I forget.

Anyhow, can anyone get me on there?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

First let me say, I think this is a great topic, and a very fair question. As one who's been around long enough to see my fair share of Merion threads, and having read most of them, I don't object one bit to the actual content and facts that have been presented in them.  It has been very interesting and eye-opening to say the least to see some of the more in-depth tidbits that have come about from them.

What I and perhaps others have loathed is that they are riddled with insults, name-calling, school boy antics, and otherwise chidlish behavoir.  Sometimes it makes the task of getting the interesting nuggets a bit tedious, espicially having to wade thru page after page of rhetoric and fighting just to get to the good stuff.

That being said, I still think on the balance, its very much worth keeping them around and think they do offer value to the site despite thier downside.  I would only hope going forward, the less desirable stuff can be taken off-line and the threads be kept to the action packed real meat of the discussion.

Kalen

[JESII]

Tom P,

I think it's safe to say the tone, as opposed to the information, is the source of any criticism. I am amazed by both the interest in the research and the intensity of the disagreements...

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I like what you said there about the intensity of the disagrements and I'm so glad you said it. I'm going to think very hard on that one for the next few days because I think there is a ton of stuff in that statement that should be known and I guess this is probably the best place to air it somehow and someday.

After-all, that certainly is the real world beyond just this place and its DG. 

[Bill_McBride]

As a guy who grew up in California and have played and studied the MacKenzie and Thomas classics there, I don't know much about Merion.  I've never played golf in the Philadelphia area so I've never even seen Merion.   Therefore I have enjoyed reading most everything written about Merion.

However, the sheer volume of writing about the club's origins has overwhelmed my ability to read it all and to comprehend much of it.  The principals on both sides of the argument are all quite literate, articulate and verbose, so there has been a plentitude to digest.  The venom level has been off the charts but that reflects the passionate views of those participants.

To me it has marked what is best about GolfClubAtlas.com (the knowledge and scholarship and the passion) as well as what is worst (the personal attacks).  I suppose at that level of passion, venom and hyperbole are inevitable if disappointing.

I wish my schedule this fall was open to a Walker Cup trip to Merion as that would be a great circumstance to see it. I was at both Chicago and County Down, which were great venues for the last two Walker Cups, and Merion will be great too.  The youngsters who compete these days are talented beyond expectation.  I would encourage anyone who can get there to attend.  There's no other golf event that's close, you can walk down the fairways within yards of the players.

Oh yes, forgot to say I miss Wayne Morrison on this site.  Wayne come home!

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,

In my case, I'll at least admit to "verbose".

Very well said.

[Anthony Gray]

  Playfulness mixed with Passion makes for an interesting marriage/divorce.

    Anthony

[Ulrich Mayring]

I wouldn't mind someone moderating the threads, though.

Ulrich

[Peter Wagner]

Tom,

To pick up on what Sully just said...
I believe that posting online falls somewhere between what someone would say to your face and what they would think but keep to themselves.  Posting is closer to thinking.  People post things that they would never say out loud to another person.

As a result things get posted all the time on message boards everywhere that are overly intense or overly harsh.  Sometimes intended but most times not.  I rarely get insulted by someone's post as people should be allowed their own thoughts.

The central problem of message boards is that these 'thought bombs' can be posted by anyone, idiot or idiot-savant, and they remain in cyber space forever to be viewed again and again.

Getting to the intensity on some Merion threads:

1.) If I were involved in the management of MGC it would concern me to see my club as the center of the many flame postings.  I think posters frequently forget that this isn't a theoretical topic but rather one that has real members and management.
2.) It would help if there were more courses that were examined this closely on GCA as it would relieve Merion from being singled out in this manner.  I think that at some point some subjects, Merion in this case, get talked out and that's usually the point when the fighting begins as there is little else to talk about.  I'd love to read about the history of Seminole or LACC or Pine Valley or the many other wonderful clubs around the world.

[soapbox]
I like GCA a lot but it's my opinion that the collective talents of this community can be put to really great use in many areas of our somewhat sick golf world.  I believe that GCA could migrate to a higher level of service and maybe the new website is the perfect time to try to do that. (?)
[/soapbox]

Best,
Peter

[JMEvensky]

Just about everything I know about Merion I've learned here.I'd hate for them to be removed.I don't even want them edited,censored,or even moderated.

I wish other courses could be argued about as passionately with as much inside knowledge.

[TEPaul]

Fine post Peter Wagner, very fine!

[Mark Pearce]

The content is extraordinary, enlightening and educatgional.  It's what GCA should be about, and what it does best.

Some of the "debate" should embarrass the participants.  I argue with people every day.  I have never, given the chance to put it in writing, sunk to the depths some of these threads have plumbed.

Keep the threads for their content and as an example to others how not to express and debate strongly held opinions.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Joking! As an example my current post on the site going down thread of Ran's...

[Dan Herrmann]

What's true is that GCA.com threads, even the most heated, are more civil than 99% of web bulletin boards out there. 

[Kirk Gill]

Tom, you know how I'll feel about this.......



DELETE 'EM ALL !



Ok, kidding. I'm a sucker for a Merion thread. Merion threads have me at "hello."

It's hard to imagine a club caring about such online discussions, but if they DO, it's even harder to imagine that they like them. Clubs in general, and Merion in particular, have a right to their privacy. Still, the club's eminence, place in history and continued desire for the highest level of championship play and relevance does perhaps invite more attention than other clubs are likely to receive.

[Bob_Huntley]

Nothing should be removed, excised or censored unless it is a vile and disgusting slander.

I believe that in looking back at some of the vituperation that erupted on the Merion thread, some of the participants will say to themeselves, "Did I really write that."


Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

I've read most of these Merion threads and there has been a lot of good stuff written. There is a compelling backstory and an interesting history associated with the club.

But.....Peter Wagner said: "If I were involved in the management of MGC it would concern me to see my club as the center of the many flame postings". Generally, I don't think the reputation of any club suffers by 'our' discourse, but I somewhat agree as it pertains to Merion.

Why I think Merion might suffer a bit is that those who have a close connection to the club protest too loudly when others ask questions, no matter how stupid, and I don't think good spokesmen indulge in arguments, verbal abuse, etc., in defense of their views. A club that is held in such high regard by the whole world of golf doesn't need or deserve to be defended in such a manner. If MGC were to have any concerns, I think they would be directed at those who practice such actions in the 'name' of the club.  

[TEPaul]

"....some of the participants will say to themeselves, "Did I really write that."


BobH:

Actually, I regularly look back on around 30,000 of my 35,000 plus posts on here and say to myself; "Did I really write that or at least that much?" 

[TEPaul]

"Why I think Merion might suffer a bit is that those who have a close connection to the club protest too loudly when others ask questions, no matter how stupid, and I don't think good spokesmen indulge in arguments, verbal abuse, etc., in defense of their views. A club that is held in such high regard by the whole world of golf doesn't need or deserve to be defended in such a manner. If MGC were to have any concerns, I think they would be directed at those who practice such actions in the 'name' of the club."


Jim Kennedy:

You know your remarks above and particularly the way you said it sort of made a lightbulb go off in my head. I believe I am going to either very seriously consider what you just said there or else just take what your ultimate advice in that remark seems to be and just stop posting on these so-called "Merion Threads," at least when what we consider to be, and I think most on here understand to be, the protagonist for the other side of the subject or argument if its Merion/Macdonald/Wilson is on board that thread.

It seems to me all that can be said on that subject has been said before and probaby many many times. Would you agree with that and if not why not?

However, with anything else to do with Merion or its history that isn't some other iteration of this overworked Merion/Macdonald thing, or perhaps is anyone other than that particular protagonist, I would be glad to particpate on.   

[George Pazin]

Definitely keep 'em - next time I get called to jury duty I'll print 'em out and read 'em.

It might be nice if some non-involved party could produce a synopsis. Lord knows I'm on here a lot, and I wasn't able to keep up with them, so I just gave up reading them. I can't even begin to follow them, there is simply way too much there. Not that I blame anyone involved for that, I'm happy to see such passion, even if it gets carried away occasionally.

[john_stiles]

I think the   Merion and ANGC are the big courses who can take just about anything heaped upon them.  And there are even more of those like   PVGC,  Seminole, Sand Hills, Riviera, etc.  Please forgive me if I left your favorite classic or modern off the list.

ANGC gets a regular whipping around February and March, about how they have strayed from the architects original ideas, etc.   The GCA  folks get out their switches, some their ole Louisville Slugger with Eddie Mathews burned on the side, and take some big swings.    Maybe ANGC has strayed,  maybe not.

Same with the Merion history to a certain extent.  Everyone wants the straight scoop, an understanding of its evolution, and who did what.    And why ?    Because they are such great courses as they now exist.  Any GCA member or lurker would play either course upon the first phone call.

These discussions only add to the lore, the lure, and the love.

Now,   if someone is beating down a lesser course, or perhaps a public or resort course,   perhaps for conditioning or some such,  yeah,  that is not very good.   They could actually 'possibly' suffer.  Those are the ones that make me cringe.   For the love of Mike, send an IM or something.

I suppose those that know Merion,  belong to Merion,  are passionate about it.   Those that research golf history are passionate about it.     The Merion discussions have been good in my opinion.   In any regard,   those threads will not be changing much as to Merion so far.

Only two or a dozen fellows have traded insults,  and it has been quite a tussle.   As to the evolution and origins,     I personally favor one side over the other.   Nevertheless I read each and every statement that seems somewhat factual or a logical deduction.   And then think about those statements and deductions, and sometimes ask questions.  The other side has not changed my mind yet (yeah, like that really matters).  
Read around some of the insults and such, which is easily done if you are not being insulted.   Enjoy the passion and don't get upset.       Relax,  consider others opinions,  remain passionate, make a decent argument.  Don't anyone stop yet.    I still read all the ANGC, etc. material and have adopted this ability to skim over some posts and some sentences.

And please,   quit calling me about playing Merion or ANGC this weekend.   I told y'all I have to trap a squirrel in the attic this weekend.    It's me or him baby.

It'll all be over soon, way too soon.

[Eric Smith]

I think the   Merion and ANGC are the big courses who can take just about anything heaped upon them.  And there are even more of those like   PVGC,  Seminole, Sand Hills, Riviera, etc.  Please forgive me if I left your favorite classic or modern off the list.

ANGC gets a regular whipping around February and March, about how they have strayed from the architects original ideas, etc.   The GCA  folks get out their switches, some their ole Louisville Slugger with Eddie Mathews burned on the side, and take some big swings.    Maybe ANGC has strayed,  maybe not.

Same with the Merion history to a certain extent.  Everyone wants the straight scoop, an understanding of its evolution, and who did what.    And why ?    Because they are such great courses as they now exist.  Any GCA member or lurker would play either course upon the first phone call.

These discussions only add to the lore, the lure, and the love.

Now,   if someone is beating down a lesser course, or perhaps a public or resort course,   perhaps for conditioning or some such,  yeah,  that is not very good.   They could actually 'possibly' suffer.  Those are the ones that make me cringe.   For the love of Mike, send an IM or something.

I suppose those that know Merion,  belong to Merion,  are passionate about it.   Those that research golf history are passionate about it.     The Merion discussions have been good in my opinion.   In any regard,   those threads will not be changing much as to Merion so far.

Only two or a dozen fellows have traded insults,  and it has been quite a tussle.   As to the evolution and origins,     I personally favor one side over the other.   Nevertheless I read each and every statement that seems somewhat factual or a logical deduction.   And then think about those statements and deductions, and sometimes ask questions.  The other side has not changed my mind yet (yeah, like that really matters).  
Read around some of the insults and such, which is easily done if you are not being insulted.   Enjoy the passion and don't get upset.       Relax,  consider others opinions,  remain passionate, make a decent argument.  Don't anyone stop yet.    I still read all the ANGC, etc. material and have adopted this ability to skim over some posts and some sentences.

And please,   quit calling me about playing Merion or ANGC this weekend.   I told y'all I have to trap a squirrel in the attic this weekend.    It's me or him baby.

It'll all be over soon, way too soon.

GREAT post John!

I hope to get up there and see you soon.

[George Pazin]

Only two or a dozen fellows have traded insults,  and it has been quite a tussle.   As to the evolution and origins,     I personally favor one side over the other.   Nevertheless I read each and every statement that seems somewhat factual or a logical deduction.   And then think about those statements and deductions, and sometimes ask questions.  The other side has not changed my mind yet (yeah, like that really matters).  
Read around some of the insults and such, which is easily done if you are not being insulted.   Enjoy the passion and don't get upset.       Relax,  consider others opinions,  remain passionate, make a decent argument.  Don't anyone stop yet.    I still read all the ANGC, etc. material and have adopted this ability to skim over some posts and some sentences.

And please,   quit calling me about playing Merion or ANGC this weekend.   I told y'all I have to trap a squirrel in the attic this weekend.    It's me or him baby.

It'll all be over soon, way too soon.

John, I promise to quit bugging you about joining me at ANGC if you'll just send me your synopsis in a private message which I will keep confidential.