This isn't ABOUT Merion but it is ABOUT threads on here about it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
I don't know how much more can be said about Merion, but I suspect there will never be an end to the discussion.

Some of the questions that have been raised pertain to issues for which there can be no certain answer, and the degree to which anyone subscribes to these conflicting opinions is a matter of perspective. Continually trying to prove someone wrong in such instances is folly, and nothing useful ever comes from that approach. Better to just state a case and then let it go, otherwise "you'll" find yourself devolving into circular arguments, ala "Cheater Lines".  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Right Dave, and it says that where in the rules that we all follow? 

[mike_malone]

 Tom.

   I think that most of the hard feelings come from the limitations of internet discussions. We all need to assume no bad intentions on the part of our fellow posters in order to disagree without rancor.


    Obviously, no one can demand information that violates a  club's privacy. But, also no one should engage in a discussion when they have club's private information at their disposal but can't/won't reveal it. It is probably just something they should avoid.

   Sometimes biases are revealed just from interpretations of someone's writings. Without a doubt Findlay's "other holes" was unclear but different biases read it differently and argued vigorously.

     I find discussions based on primary material like Alan Wilson's letter or ship manifests to be much more informative.

   Arguments about photos such as those taken from #9 to # 10 at Merion are just comedy.


    The possibility that this website could add something to the history of gca drives several posters' efforts. They need to be supported in their efforts since it is the heart of the site.

[Sean_A]

I thinks the ideas behind the threads are excellent its just that there is WAY too much junk in the posts to really do the topics justice.  Its just a shame the major players don't get their heads together rather than giving each other hard lessons.  If timelines could be laid by each player then we can all see what the differences of opinion are and at least have a chance of moving forward.  At the moment, lines are drawn and things are going nowhere. 

As for deleting the threads, no.  There isn't much point point because all the players know who wrote what where the insults are concerned.

Ciao   

[Tony Petersen]

Merion--isn't that the course that CB MacDonald did? Or was it MacKenzie? I forget.

Anyhow, can anyone get me on there?

Actually, it was Seth Raynor, same guy that did Pine Valley

I find the passion admirable but at the end of the day, you're all talking about a game and trying to prove something THAT CANNOT be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt as time has passed...

Still, I would love to play Merion again... As all at the KP can attest, it's my favorite hat and it's time to get a new one!

[Mike Sweeney]

Ran who is GCA owner, Courses By Country writer and distant GCA moderator posted an In My Opinion piece by David Moriarity on Merion GC. Right or wrong, Ran posting the piece gives it legitimacy. That led to a series of Discussion Group threads that were filled with information, accusations, counterpoints and way too much personal conflict by a group that I will call the Friends of Merion against Moriarity and his piece. As an interested bystander in Merion's history, it became impossible to follow and the focus turned away from Merion GC to the individuals involved.

Having posted a grand total of 1 My Home Course piece, I can say that it takes time, focus and energy to post these articles which are more thought out than a Discussion Group thread.

I would like to see the Friends of Merion post a counterpoint In My Opinion piece posted by Ran, which corrects any mistakes in the Moriarity piece and acknowledges where it is correct and where it is opinion rather than fact.

[Mike_Cirba]

I would like to see the Friends of Merion post a counterpoint In My Opinion piece posted by Ran, which corrects any mistakes in the Moriarity piece and acknowledges where it is correct and where it is opinion rather than fact.

Mike,

I think that it's past time for that, although I'm not the one to write it. 

On the other hand, maybe we should all just shut the hell up.     

[Jim Nugent]

I would like to see the Friends of Merion post a counterpoint In My Opinion piece posted by Ran, which corrects any mistakes in the Moriarity piece and acknowledges where it is correct and where it is opinion rather than fact.

That will resurrect the whole argument.  Look for another 100 page thread, complete with the friendly ribbing so beloved in past posts.

Which I don't mind.  In fact I like the Merion debates a lot.  Urge Ran NOT to censor or moderate them.  They all paint Merion itself in a highly positive light.  And I feel a lot of fascinating information has come out, that has gotten everyone involved thinking and researching. 

 

[Brad Fleischer]

TE,

I am a newbie here and it took me FOREVER to even try and dissect the merion threads. I'll rephrase that I still have not dissected the merion threads. My head spins constantly but that does not stop me from trying to learn more about merion. Just the research and time involved is beyond my comprehension. Right or wrong credit should be given to both sides. Do I like the sometimes over the top personal attacks, no not at all, but when you have a passion for something things can get out of control. It's kind of like going off on your little brother and making him cry because he pissed you off so much, at the time you hated him but in reality you really love him so you make up latter. All sides have made valid points to me ,all sides have made invalid points TO ME. Point is that's what makes it a good read along with the fact at times it can be down right hilarious. The people writing those threads are a hell of a lot smarter than me and know a hell of a lot more about GCA than me, that's why I joined the sight , to learn. Chances of me ever having the slightest interest in merion was slim and none before I joined this sight. I thought I was a golf course nut , in this crowd I'm not even in the same bag but I'm learning.

So to sum it up , no don't get rid of them (well at least until I can digest it all ) arguing is fine ,personal attacks I can live without but In the heat of the moment they happen. Can you imagine if everyone put there brains together and had a OPEN mind regarding each other's thoughts and opinions what you might accomplish ? My god man it would be scary, you might find someone's diary with all the answers in it in some old run down philly apt building ! Or you can just go to sylvia brown and channel all the old ghosts , it might be easier lol

Real quick regarding your access statement. I have yet to ask anyone on here to get me on a certain course. That said the people on here are way more GENEROUS than I could have ever imagined and ironically you don't need to ask the offers are given freely. How much more could you ask for ? The guys on here are more than generous and I hope everyone appreciates some of the gestures that go on with this site. Case in point Jim with his offer of ballyneal to some of us here and mikes offer of kingsley. Jim and mike if your reading this a big thank you . I also feel the majority of people on this sight know the do's and dont's. I love golf and love playing the game with new people who share the same interests as me or even one's who don't, wether that's on some goat track or some private nirvana.

You also made a certain post a few days ago to the affect of in the old days this post would have had numerous responses, just goes to show you what the sight is becoming. There are a lot of newbies on this sight including me  that are trying to get there feet wet and learn more before they jump in. Give some of us a chance ,who knows you might get surprised    Heck I might even learn a thing or two from you

sorry for the ramble
Brad

[Bradley Anderson]

I think that a line is crossed when someone states what their opponent's motive is. There has been some of that with the Merion threads and I wince when I read it.

[Niall C]

Tom,

First let me say, I think this is a great topic, and a very fair question. As one who's been around long enough to see my fair share of Merion threads, and having read most of them, I don't object one bit to the actual content and facts that have been presented in them.  It has been very interesting and eye-opening to say the least to see some of the more in-depth tidbits that have come about from them.

What I and perhaps others have loathed is that they are riddled with insults, name-calling, school boy antics, and otherwise chidlish behavoir.  Sometimes it makes the task of getting the interesting nuggets a bit tedious, espicially having to wade thru page after page of rhetoric and fighting just to get to the good stuff.

That being said, I still think on the balance, its very much worth keeping them around and think they do offer value to the site despite thier downside.  I would only hope going forward, the less desirable stuff can be taken off-line and the threads be kept to the action packed real meat of the discussion.

Kalen

Tom,

I think Kalen puts it rather well. I note your last few posts, including this one, have been more concillatory and I think you are to be commended for that.

As someone who is interested in early golf course design, I would like to see you write your own piece on Merion, within the limitations on public disclosure that you feel you are under, but not as a point by point repost to Davids essay but rather as a fresh look giving your own timeline and view on events as you see them. Clearly you have a lot of knowledge on Merion and I for one would prefer to see it written down in an essay rather than having to plough through a thousand and one Merion threads to appreciate it.

Niall

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I think Kalen puts it rather well. I note your last few posts, including this one, have been more concillatory and I think you are to be commended for that."


Niall:

Thank you; I will try to continue to be concillatory on these Merion threads if I continue on them.



"As someone who is interested in early golf course design, I would like to see you write your own piece on Merion, within the limitations on public disclosure that you feel you are under, but not as a point by point repost to Davids essay but rather as a fresh look giving your own timeline and view on events as you see them. Clearly you have a lot of knowledge on Merion and I for one would prefer to see it written down in an essay rather than having to plough through a thousand and one Merion threads to appreciate it."






Niall, I would point you first to Post #34 and Mike Sweeney's remarks in it and Jim Nugent's response to Mike Sweeney. Jim Nugent feels a counterpoint timeline listing or synopsis to David Moriarty's essay might create the same on-going unresolvable arguments. I understand that but I'm toying with the idea of taking Mike Sweeney's suggestion anyway but with Bradley Anderson's sentiment to just do it without questioning anyone's motives for disagreeing with it----which of course we have done in the past and so has the people disagreeing with our take on Merion's history and who Merion's architects were.

You asked me to just write a timeline of Merion's history as we feel it happened and who did it, but I don't believe that's exactly necessary because my feeling (and us here, including Merion itself) is that that timeline and who did what and when is already accurate, and always has been in Merion's own history which includes its history on its website which anyone on here can access and read.

The only exception we have seen to that accurate Merion history as recorded by Merion which has been revealed as a result of these threads is this event of WHEN Wilson went abroard. Merion's history had that in 1910 and it now seems certain it was in 1912. But the point of that, at least to us, is that it does not change anything about who did Merion and when at all, even though the essayist Moriarty certainly tried to make it seem like it actually changed a lot. In that vein of the mistaken 1910 trip we did discover that that story did not come about for over half a century AFTER the events (1910-1911-1912) we've all and always been discussing on here. In our opinion, it is extremely important that those interested in all this but who have heretofore not understood the details truly understand what this really means (or doesn't mean)!

Again, we don't think think the 1912 trip vs a 1910 trip has anything like the meaning the essay tried to assign to it, and we believe we can explain to anyone interested exactly why and how it doesn't make any real difference that he went in 1912 rather than the mistaken year of 1910.

Other than that a presentation of David Moriaty's timeline of events in his essay that are all about WHAT he SAYS OCCURED and WHEN (which we have never believed is remotely supportable with the real timeline or otherwise), I believe really would be a most valuable lesson in all of this for anyone on here who is truly interested and willing to consider the meaning of these things.

Of course, in the process, I certainly would be asking a few questions about why he puts various events at particular times when it's pretty clear there is and never has been a scintilla of EVIDENCE anywhere or at anytime to do something like that! 

And then I think a good many others will come to realize he did it that way simply to be able to make various points, assumptions and premises that could lead to various contentions or conclusions that are unfortunately completely at odds with the chronology of events that were recorded by the men from Merion who were involved in the creation of Merion East back then.

[Niall C]

Tom,

I feel myself being sucked in here and could possibly end up arguing semantics and parsing words with the rest of you. All good sport I'm sure but it doesn't tell me much about how Merion was designed/created and how its been updated along the way. And with respect, neither does the Merion GC website tell me much about that process either.

As I said in my earlier post, you clearly have a lot of knowledge about the club/course and a great love for it as well and I would love to hear the story from you with all your inside knowledge. I for one don't have any agenda, hidden or otherwise, and I suspect that the vast majority on this site are the same, we are all interested in good golf architecture and how it came about. If the Merion website doesn't give me this and what David says is wrong then unfortunately I'm going to pass on finding out about the more detailed story of how Merion evolved if the only way of finding out is decyphering the thousands of posts that are on this site.

Niall     

[TEPaul]

Niall:

I understand completely and you put it well. Let me consider how to go about it or if to go about it. The whole thing is in our book but it is as yet unpublished and Wayne definitely does not want to put that on here before it is. That's his call and it's completely understandable for a number of practical reasons.

Maybe I can come up with a sort of bullet timeline from June 1910 to say mid-April 1911 which was the last time Macdonald/Whigam had anything to do with Merion other than just a single letter to Wilson in June which only had to do with the quantities and application of lime, manure and fertilizer. That letter isn't Merion's own adminitrative record for the course anyway---it came from the so-called "Agronomy Letters" that were in Washington D.C.