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Richard Choi

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2009, 06:05:07 PM »
I think the majority of the posters here would describe themselves as "purists".

Any group that describes themselves as "purists" would fall under "literati" or "in" crowd.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2009, 06:07:12 PM »
I think the majority of the posters here would describe themselves as "purists".

Any group that describes themselves as "purists" would fall under "literati" or "in" crowd.

Richard,

Then where did all those "purists" go when they rode thier carts all over Sherwood and played 5+ hr rounds!!   :-X

I'd say GCA.com'ites are closer to idealists, even if its do what I say, not what I do!!  ;D

Garland Bayley

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2009, 06:09:08 PM »
...
Then where did all those "purists" go when they rode thier carts all over Sherwood and played 5+ hr rounds!!   :-X
...

When you live in a glass house, ....
 :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2009, 06:13:36 PM »
...
Then where did all those "purists" go when they rode thier carts all over Sherwood and played 5+ hr rounds!!   :-X
...

When you live in a glass house, ....
 :P

No glass house here, I fit right in perfectly with all the rest of you.  :D

Besides with all the mountain courses and hot summer temps, its impractical to walk here most of the golf season.  :P

George Pazin

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2009, 06:25:32 PM »
I've seen very little criticism of Fazio that is anywhere near as bad as his supporters on here make it out to be. For all the talk of bias, bashing and dog-piling, the only times Fazio is truly bashed is when he/his company make changes to classic courses. The rest of the times that are labeled as bias, bashing and dog-piling are largely just a difference in degrees of opinion, usually nowhere near as great as those involved in the disagreement would make it seem.

I also think there is A LOT more substance behind the bashers, the biased folks and the dog pilers than those accusing them of bias, bashing and dog-piling...but then again, I'm a biased bashing dog-piler.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Sweeney

Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2009, 06:51:57 PM »
For all the talk of bias, bashing and dog-piling, the only times Fazio is truly bashed is when he/his company make changes to classic courses.

And George this is the problem. Tom Fazio does not own Winged Foot, Merion or Augusta like Mark Cuban owns the Dallas Mavericks. He does not work in a vacuum. He is a hired architect who gives advice and more importantly delivers the changes that are requested by Boards of those clubs.

In your own business, when a client delivers specs for an order, do you deliver what the client ask or what you think is right ?

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2009, 06:55:36 PM »
I've seen very little criticism of Fazio that is anywhere near as bad as his supporters on here make it out to be. For all the talk of bias, bashing and dog-piling, the only times Fazio is truly bashed is when he/his company make changes to classic courses. The rest of the times that are labeled as bias, bashing and dog-piling are largely just a difference in degrees of opinion, usually nowhere near as great as those involved in the disagreement would make it seem.

I also think there is A LOT more substance behind the bashers, the biased folks and the dog pilers than those accusing them of bias, bashing and dog-piling...but then again, I'm a biased bashing dog-piler.

 :)

George,

One man's dog-piling is another man's attempt at golf critique.

Fazio is bashed repeatedly by the "purists"  based on what they feel to be accurate... bunkering is window dressing versus natural and strategic, courses created versus discovered... etc.

While I certainly lean closer to the bashers in terms of architectural preference and appreciation I again fall back on... most people love Fazio's work and only those who fancy themselves well educated on the finer points of course design choose to pick his designs apart. The Thomas Kinkade analogy was spot on in my opinion, but heck that is just the opinion of one marginally educated, highly opinionated, sometimes intoxicated, recently vaccinated hombre from Mexico.    ;)

« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 06:57:13 PM by Greg Tallman »

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2009, 06:59:29 PM »
For all the talk of bias, bashing and dog-piling, the only times Fazio is truly bashed is when he/his company make changes to classic courses.

And George this is the problem. Tom Fazio does not own Winged Foot, Merion or Augusta like Mark Cuban owns the Dallas Mavericks. He does not work in a vacuum. He is a hired architect who gives advice and more importantly delivers the changes that are requested by Boards of those clubs.

In your own business, when a client delivers specs for an order, do you deliver what the client ask or what you think is right ?

Mike, you touch on the true heart of the matter... the purists feel Fazio, Jack et al are SELL OUTS versus artists.

Heck, I prefer to just call them businessmen.  :-\

John Foley

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2009, 07:55:33 PM »
I think it's time that we on this website--me included--who turn up our proverbial noses at one course or another, or one architect or another.  Need to extend an olive branch to all architects that are willing to share their knowledge.  It's a fun, silly game guys.  It stirs our souls at times, and at others its merely an escape to take a walk and have a beer.  In the end though, its a game.

Ben - Thanks for some very wise words.

Whole lot of people on this web site should be heading this advice.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Ben Sims

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2009, 08:19:48 PM »
John,

I'm just trying to bring a little perspective to the thread. I admit I'm a homer for C&C, Renaisscance, Silva, and Hanse as much as the next guy. But all Fazio has done wrong is use an equation for golf holes that works well for him, his clients, and most players of his courses.  I don't have the passion for his courses the way I do for Pacific Dunes. But it's a game. And a birdie while taking a walk with friends feels good on any course. Especially on courses designed by the modern masters listed above. But I still like it on a Fazio course too. 

Andy Troeger

Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2009, 08:26:40 PM »
Ben,
Well said on those last couple of posts.

I also think its unfair to broadbrush any architect--I've played enough Fazio courses to have been unimpressed by a couple, pleasantly surprised by a couple, and REALLY impressed by one (The Alotian Club). I'm really looking forward to Victoria National and Gozzer Ranch too.


Richard Choi

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2009, 10:26:36 PM »
I for one enjoy Fazio courses. They may be missing some strategic elements, but you gotta admit his courses are drop dead gorgeous to look at.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2009, 10:47:49 PM »
There is some precedence from the art world where if an artist is widely accepted by general public, he/she is shunned by the critics and "in" circles.

For example, Thomas Kinkade is perhaps the most commercially successful artist alive today. But his work is collected mostly by the "heart of the America" types and not by the NY art crowd. They practically despise it.

Now, the question is, is Tom Fazio more like Thomas Kinkade where the work is so general public friendly (charming cottage scenes, dreamy colors, etc.) that it is really not of any artistic merit? OR is it more like Monet which is adored by the general public and art crowd alike?


I love the idea for the comparison with Impressionist art. However, I would say that Fazio courses are the art of The Salon (popular art of the time) and the Renaissance, C&C, Hanse, etc crowd as the Impressionists, your Monet, Cesane, Manet. See, Fazio is a supremely talented artist, only he tries not to push boundaries and expand his definition of architecture, he is devoted to what he knows, painting portraits of rich kings in ballet poses, alterpeices with classical references and heroic nudes. The Impressionists, criticized in their time, look to redefine art, to challenge the way we do things. In the end it is the Monet's and Picasso's who's work has become the most popular art in history, and its not because they couldn't paint really accurate portraits, it was because to communicate their genius, they had to venture into the abstract!


Randy Thompson

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2009, 10:55:28 PM »
What makes them gorgeous, is it is ingenious,,I think somewhat but its also the budget! He has done some great courses and some even greater holes. Does he put the time into them that he did in the past? How old is he? How many courses has he done? Divied that number by six to eight days a month! What is the answer, a great architect, a great delegater, does it matter??? Is he producing the same quality in his current delegation phase then in the past, I say not! I say a little something has been lost! Have any of you played his course in Panama done with George, would any of you return, I would like to hear one person say, YES! The sucsess comes from a number of factors, which he has clear from trial and error, a great buisssnessman and one time in the PAST a great architect because it was important to him, is it important to him today as it was in the PAST...is this what drives him....You decide....I have made my decision but I am a gentleman and will always respect your oppinion, are all of you cabable of the same?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 11:00:49 PM by Randy Thompson »

Damon Groves

Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2009, 01:36:16 AM »
Boy...I'm a whole lot more smarter now.   ::)

Could the interviewer be any more fawning or ask less architecturally relevant questions?   I was on the edge of my seat reading about the Father/Son tournaments he plays in annually, or how he always watches the right side of golf holes.

If there wasn't already reason to bemoan the loss of real journalists....  :'(

I agree. Typical Fabio. But what do you expect from a guy that has his little template of golf holes and demands a fortune moving the ground into a mold he had in his head before he ever stepped foot on the ground. While this may be an exaggeration it is not far off.

While they certiany spent a small fortune here at Chileno Bay (reportedly $34 million) I do not believe there was a huge earth moving effort. The course flows naturally with the terrain and is far from you "cookie cutter" classification. You can see it on another thread "Name the architect" where some even call it Doakesque.


Greg -

Check out courses like Oak Creek and Shadow Creek. Both were completely contrived courses. Plus the holes at many of his courses are very similar.
 
Further, I have played a number of courses by both Doak and Fabio and no comparison between the two. Plus Doak's courses can actually be maintained at a reasonable price. Can't say that for Fabio.

Jim Nugent

Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2009, 02:49:17 AM »
I too would like a list of the template holes. 
 

Not holes, but his "template" might be form over substance. 

I only played two Fazio courses.  The ones at Pelican Hill.  They left me vaguely unsatisfied.  They were pretty, but where was the there there? 

From time to time Fazio shows he knows substance quite well.  Which makes it even more frustrating when he seems to choose the beautiful face instead.   

Sean_A

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2009, 03:23:32 AM »
The questions were worse than the answers.  An architect can only work with what he is given.

Agreed. The interviewer appears to have done no prep for the piece at all.

This is where we get in trouble on GCA. Golf Digest does not even have an Editor to correctly spell "St Kitts"  not "St Kits" which by the way is in the British West Indies and not the Virgin Islands. Somehow, Fazio gets the Bogey Dogpile on GCA.

Now George is comparing a family guy who appears to do work for charity and seems to seek out little attention (website?, feature interviews?, Masters interviews on course changes?) to Mark Cuban? George, the man has 200 courses in the ground that people enjoy everyday of their lives. How can you compare this with a bunch of software code sitting on a box that some company was stupid enough to buy at some silly premium? Comparing Tom Fazio a commercial architect with Mark Cuban a promotor is beyond silly. Please never make fun of a Matt Ward list again until you retract that statement.

Mike

I can get on board with the spelling of St Kitts, but its location is indeed in the Virgin Islands - a geographic term.  The terms US Virgin Islands and British West Indies are political terms.  So, imo, to say St Kitts is located in either the Virgin Islands or British West Indies is correct. 

I didn't think much of the interview, but then most interviews aren't very good.  Interviews should touch on the themes which allow the reader/viewer to gain an insight of the person.  That means many different emotions should come to the surface.  Unfortunately, most interviews are more or less a lovefest or worse still, just uninsightful. 

I know many of the big wigs of this crowd aren't really into Fazio, but what are the 3-5 courses of his which really do stand out as grand architecture?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2009, 06:53:55 AM »

I can get on board with the spelling of St Kitts, but its location is indeed in the Virgin Islands - a geographic term.  The terms US Virgin Islands and British West Indies are political terms.  So, imo, to say St Kitts is located in either the Virgin Islands or British West Indies is correct. 


Sean,

I am pleased that The Queen has adopted you as one of he Royal Subjects and that you are now cleaning up these political questions. Will the USA be going back to a Colony of The British Empire too? I am sure Melvin would like that so that he can eliminate all the carts!

But I digress. My involvement with this thread started when George compared Fazio to Mark Cuban. I doubt that I have played more than 5 Fazio courses. I don't seek them out as he is not my favorite. However, I have often said that if you are traveling to the Jersey Shore and are able to choose between Hidden Creek (C&C), Atlantic City CC (Flynn/Doak) or Galloway National (Fazio), you play Galloway because it is one of the best Fazio's that you can play whereas Hidden Creek and ACCC would be second tier in the portfolios of their respective architects. I say that as a member of Hidden Creek. I have the same feeing towards World Woods. I love that course and wish it was just a little closer to Disney during family trips. Heroic shots, memorable holes and a nice walk. If it had a touch better conditioning and did not suffer from Pine Valley comparisons, I think it would be a consistent Top 50 course.


Sean_A

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2009, 08:39:47 AM »

I can get on board with the spelling of St Kitts, but its location is indeed in the Virgin Islands - a geographic term.  The terms US Virgin Islands and British West Indies are political terms.  So, imo, to say St Kitts is located in either the Virgin Islands or British West Indies is correct. 


Sean,

I am pleased that The Queen has adopted you as one of he Royal Subjects and that you are now cleaning up these political questions. Will the USA be going back to a Colony of The British Empire too? I am sure Melvin would like that so that he can eliminate all the carts!

But I digress. My involvement with this thread started when George compared Fazio to Mark Cuban. I doubt that I have played more than 5 Fazio courses. I don't seek them out as he is not my favorite. However, I have often said that if you are traveling to the Jersey Shore and are able to choose between Hidden Creek (C&C), Atlantic City CC (Flynn/Doak) or Galloway National (Fazio), you play Galloway because it is one of the best Fazio's that you can play whereas Hidden Creek and ACCC would be second tier in the portfolios of their respective architects. I say that as a member of Hidden Creek. I have the same feeing towards World Woods. I love that course and wish it was just a little closer to Disney during family trips. Heroic shots, memorable holes and a nice walk. If it had a touch better conditioning and did not suffer from Pine Valley comparisons, I think it would be a consistent Top 50 course.



Mike

On the contrary, I adopted the Queen and her heirs when I became a subject of the British Crown.  Plus, there were stipulations which I had to adhere to.  First, I had to pay a fiver!  Marty B swears I can buy a round at his local with so few pennies.  Second, I had to leave my shotguns back in Michigan.  I am still working on getting at least one over, but every time I get the paperwork up to date a shooting massacre happens somewhere in the States - then its back to square one.  Finally, my Chevy pickup and golf cart which fit neatly in the bed had to be abandoned.  Apparently this had something to do with Common Law.  Old Tom won a suit against another commoner back in the day and the upshot is that carts and gas guzzlers are banned.  However, as I am also a citizen of the United States of America I feel duty bound to challenge the golf cart law.  I suspect you will soon hear of Arble V Melvyn in the one of the British rags.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2009, 09:56:14 AM »
I for one enjoy Fazio courses. They may be missing some strategic elements, but you gotta admit his courses are drop dead gorgeous to look at.

Reminds me of some of the dates I had in my earlier days, great to look at, but out of the question for a long term relationship.

I'm looking for a course I can marry and bring home to MOM. ::)


Mike Hendren

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Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2009, 10:14:59 AM »
George, I felt no need to defend the quality of Fazio's work since he has 18 of the top 100 Modern on Golfweek's list (excluding Sea Island).

Despite the fact that I'm not a big fan of his and have a strong bias for the Golden Agers and their Farmers (for you, Mike Young ;))I tire of reading comments about Fabio (please goodle Fabio rollercoaster bird for a good laugh) and The Faz.

Besides, if I was going to join a dog-pile on anyone, it would be Rees Jones.

I work in a very nice office building that will never win any awards.  It is functional, aesthetically pleasing, well maintained and hasn't fallen down.  Damn good architecture in my book.


Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2009, 10:28:33 AM »
George, I felt no need to defend the quality of Fazio's work since he has 18 of the top 100 Modern on Golfweek's list (excluding Sea Island).

Despite the fact that I'm not a big fan of his and have a strong bias for the Golden Agers and their Farmers (for you, Mike Young ;))I tire of reading comments about Fabio (please goodle Fabio rollercoaster bird for a good laugh) and The Faz.

Besides, if I was going to join a dog-pile on anyone, it would be Rees Jones.

I work in a very nice office building that will never win any awards.  It is functional, aesthetically pleasing, well maintained and hasn't fallen down.  Damn good architecture in my book.


Bogey

Bogey,
One of the best maintained courses I knew in the 80's was in South Georgia and the supt grew corn in the mornings and worked on the golf course in the afternoons....FARMER..... ;D 
You could carry your office building analogy a little further and use it for most of our houses.....if our houses were golf courses most on this site would never go home... ;D ;D

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2009, 11:30:08 AM »
.....if our houses were golf courses most on this site would never go home... ;D ;D

That's so good I wish I'd said it.

Let me know when DD needs a caddie.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2009, 11:39:56 AM »
I for one enjoy Fazio courses. They may be missing some strategic elements, but you gotta admit his courses are drop dead gorgeous to look at.

Richard,

Can you develop the bit about the missing "strategic elements" just a little, perhaps citing where they're absent in Fazio's work and present in, say, Hanse's Rustic Canyon?  Are strategic courses those that feature shortish holes with relatively wide fairways and difficult green complexes?  Is the ability by the higher handicappers to use a putter around the green a big part of it?  Just like with walking and fast play, I hear a lot about strategy from GCA.com types but seldom see it in real life.

The vast majority of Fazio courses I've played provide ample opportunity for different types of shots.  In addition to being visually attractive, a big plus in my book, is that his courses are invariably challenging in most facets of the game, provide great variety, and are typically maintained and set-up to promote the architecture.  True, his courses do require the golfer to get the ball off the ground, on some holes for as much as 150 yards, depending on the tee, but I think that the concept that a good course is one that can be played by all types of golfers has been successfully disputed if not largely discredited.

It is impossible to read all the negative stuff about Fazio, often from people who have very little experience with his work, and not wonder how much the populist hatred of "the rich" underlies it.  After all, getting a $2 Million fee and having a $30 Million budget appears unseemingly.  But, just like some leading PGA touring pros are thankful of Tiger's impact on purses and the game, I suspect that some of the better architects are likewise grateful that Fazio has raised the pricing umbrella for their services.  As one who has played a considerable amount of golf over the last 30 years, there is no question in my mind that the average golfer at every price point has much better courses to play, and that Fazio has contributed disproportionately to this.

I don't know if Fazio is a better architect than Bill Coore, Tom Doak, or Gil Hanse.  I have heard several less well-known architects wish that they had the opportunity to work on a golf course with a generous budget.  It makes sense that with that much money to build a course, much should be expected.  From what I've played, Fazio seems to deliver time and time again. 

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2009, 12:02:52 PM »
I for one enjoy Fazio courses. They may be missing some strategic elements, but you gotta admit his courses are drop dead gorgeous to look at.

Richard,

Can you develop the bit about the missing "strategic elements" just a little, perhaps citing where they're absent in Fazio's work and present in, say, Hanse's Rustic Canyon?  Are strategic courses those that feature shortish holes with relatively wide fairways and difficult green complexes?  Is the ability by the higher handicappers to use a putter around the green a big part of it?  Just like with walking and fast play, I hear a lot about strategy from GCA.com types but seldom see it in real life.

The vast majority of Fazio courses I've played provide ample opportunity for different types of shots.  In addition to being visually attractive, a big plus in my book, is that his courses are invariably challenging in most facets of the game, provide great variety, and are typically maintained and set-up to promote the architecture.  True, his courses do require the golfer to get the ball off the ground, on some holes for as much as 150 yards, depending on the tee, but I think that the concept that a good course is one that can be played by all types of golfers has been successfully disputed if not largely discredited.

It is impossible to read all the negative stuff about Fazio, often from people who have very little experience with his work, and not wonder how much the populist hatred of "the rich" underlies it.  After all, getting a $2 Million fee and having a $30 Million budget appears unseemingly.  But, just like some leading PGA touring pros are thankful of Tiger's impact on purses and the game, I suspect that some of the better architects are likewise grateful that Fazio has raised the pricing umbrella for their services.  As one who has played a considerable amount of golf over the last 30 years, there is no question in my mind that the average golfer at every price point has much better courses to play, and that Fazio has contributed disproportionately to this.

I don't know if Fazio is a better architect than Bill Coore, Tom Doak, or Gil Hanse.  I have heard several less well-known architects wish that they had the opportunity to work on a golf course with a generous budget.  It makes sense that with that much money to build a course, much should be expected.  From what I've played, Fazio seems to deliver time and time again. 

I don't want to speak for Richard, Lou, but in my mind "strategic elements" means decisions/consequences. I have a limited experience with Fazio's original work, and while not offesnive, I never came away thinking it was top notch work and frankly was generally forgettable. I have a very big problem with the work he's performed on the classical courses and it has nothing to do with "well, he merely carried out what the membership wanted." As far as the budget issue, has Fazio done cost effective designs? Are there quite a few examples in his portfolio that have promoted a low cost alternative way of designing? His work is high profile and more times than not, feature conditions that are expensive to maintain and are passed on to the customers/members. Other ill informed clubs see the results of his work and try and emulate the "look" (the ANGC syndrome) and drives the costs up everywhere. Fazio is very, very talented. While true, in some cases, he "gives the customers what they want", I think he has the ability to build courses that require a much smaller budget and not be the worse for it. He needs to break his own mold and take some chances and not hide behind big budgets that can mask an architects abilities to design simply and effectively without trying to "wow" people with by products of a big budget. He is capable of doing it, and frankly, the economic climate requires everyone to rethink the way they have typically done business in the past. I'm all for an architect making as much money as possible, but I think they also have a duty to grow the game at the grass roots level so there is a game for all of us in the future. Economy of design. Less is more. It would do nothing but provide a stronger foundation for the game.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

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