Tom Fazio interview with Golf Digest

[Brad Tufts]

Was the, "my sons spend their lives on the internet, and see things people say about their Dad" a shout-out to GCA?

Maybe that's why he isn't going to do an interview...

[Michael Dugger]

The guy (Fazio) has made significant contributions to golf course architecture.

It's a shame we cannot get him persuaded to do an interview here. 

A shame....

[Lester George]

John,

Nice use of the Van Morrison quote.

Not sure I can top that one!!!

Lester

[Wade Whitehead]

It appears that Tom Fazio designs courses that most people enjoy playing, irrespective of any architectural discussion or merit.  There's something to be said for that, isn't there?

WW

[Joel_Stewart]

Last summer I met him and asked if he would do an interview on GCA.  He said yes and said he had never heard of GCA.   

So Ran and I came up with 20 questions he has never been asked, numerous questions about George Fazio and how he worked and met Mike Strantz.   I emailed it to him and after numerous phone calls to his assisitant he decided not to do it???

The GD interview is just powder puff stuff.  The GCA interview would have been amazing.

Joel,

  Did you believe him when he said he had never heard of GCA?

I have no reason not to believe him.  I don't think he spends a lot of time on the computer and I know his assistant picks up his emails so yes, maybe he hasn't heard of GCA.  I agree that his staff probably knows of GCA.

It is a shame as I think Ran really wanted to extend an olive branch out to him.  He has had an impact and some of his work is quite good so we wanted him to discuss some really interesting concepts.   I tried to find the questions but I was pissed off when he declined so I deleted the document.

I do remember 3 or 4 questions regarding George Fazio.  Not much has been written about him and we thought it would be historic for him to set the record straight about George and his design thoughts, especially since George was such a great player.  We know Fazio refuses to answer which of his designs are his favorite so we asked him which design of Georges was his favorite and why.

The idea about Mike Strantz came about when Fazio and myself were having a casual conversation and he discussed how he met Mike when Mike was working on the crew at Inverness in Toledo and asked for a job.  He had nothing but great words about Mike Strantz.

[tlavin]

I had dinner with Tom Fazio when he was in town to look at some changes to Butler National about five years ago.  He was absolutely delightful company.  He told a few Shadow Creek stories, including a hilarious tale about forgetting Wynn's check in his office on his way out of town.  He also talked about some of the design philosophy at Butler.  To me the most interesting answer was to the question, "What Tom Fazio course is coming up that we really would want to play?"  His answer at that time was "Forest Creek.  It really is something special."  True 'dat.

[Lou_Duran]

Its not that bad of an interview,(a strong 2 on a scale of one to ten) you have to give him credit, he has mastered the art of delegate and disappear and has maintained the big bucks in the process. Its all about preception and he prefers to focus on that then anything that could be taken as controversial and jepordize a potential future dollar. No surprize that he never answered the questions for GCA. I do respect that at one point in time, he was creative and the world is a better place with his designs, too bad, the money took preseidence and his designs in the last ten years turned into facotry designs. Reminds me of Country Club of America, trunk slammers clubs, move them in and move them out, take there money and thank them for coming with a big smile!! Will some of the other masters of present be able to stay away from this temptation, or will they take the same dive. Um possibly a good thread guestion. Is it a dive or just good busisness! Are we all in it just for the money? How many of us are hands on because we have to be and when the bucks come rolling we will hold strong to our hands on principals or will we take the money and run!!

I try very hard to understand others' perspectives and how they arrived at them.  But comments such as "I do respect that at one point in time, he was creative and the world is a better place with his designs, too bad, the money took preseidence and his designs in the last ten years turned into facotry designs." are inexplicable.  What evidence can the poster offer to support such inaccurate and inflammatory charges?  Do we wonder why Fazio and other well-known, highly successful architects and industry players overlook this site?

I had some communications with Ben Crenshaw's agent a few years back about doing an architecture focused interview.  He asked me some pertinent questions (what, why, how, etc.), but when I talked with Ben later at Austin GC, he said that gca was too subjective, potentially controversial, and something that he didn't want to be tied-down on in any great detail.  Ben is acquainted with this site and asked me to pass on his good wishes to then gca.com prime mover Thomas Naccarato.  (Note: Ben Crenshaw does not know me from the next guy).

A review of Fazio's work over the last 10 years would be very favorable.  In Texas alone, three of my favorite five courses are Fazio designs built since 2002.  Seven out of the top 50 Texas courses as ranked by the "Dallas Morning News" were created by Fazio, only one which was built prior to 2000.  If most American factories were producing with such high quality we may not be in the financial pickle we are currently in.

 

[PCCraig]

I had dinner with Tom Fazio when he was in town to look at some changes to Butler National about five years ago.  He was absolutely delightful company.  He told a few Shadow Creek stories, including a hilarious tale about forgetting Wynn's check in his office on his way out of town.  He also talked about some of the design philosophy at Butler.  To me the most interesting answer was to the question, "What Tom Fazio course is coming up that we really would want to play?"  His answer at that time was "Forest Creek.  It really is something special."  True 'dat.

I think the majority of his designs come from his own set of "template" holes that his associates tweak here and there, he cashes a big check, and his customers are happy. Bottom line is that for the majority of golfers in the world Fazio makes a wonderful product...all power to him for it honestly.

I will say that there are "pet" projects of his that he takes a special interest to, and Forest Creek is one of them. His work on the North Course is very very good (**shock** natural) and would be highly regarded by many on this forum sight seen. It's better than almost all of it's neighbors, except maybe #2, and even still it is the best true "sandhills" course I've seen.

[tlavin]

I thought this thread could develop into some really unkind dog-piling, then I read Geoff Shackelford's blog.  Oh, my.  There's no pause button on his clicker when it comes to Fazio.  A bit over the proverbial top, but I'm guessing he wanted to be controversial.

[Joel_Stewart]

To me the most interesting answer was to the question, "What Tom Fazio course is coming up that we really would want to play?"  His answer at that time was "Forest Creek.  It really is something special."  True 'dat.

He must get that a lot.   His new answer is a course that isn't permitted yet and doesn't have a name but he insists that it will be top 100 if built.   It's location is in Oklahoma and that's all he would say.

[Ben Sims]

The way I feel about Fazio the architect.  Contrived, trite, overused, predictable, boring.  If not effective??

The way I feel about Fazio the man.  Generous, insightful, family first, entrepreneurial, successful even.

See my point?  For the years I was lurking, I saw nothing but vitriol spewed towards this man as if he was evil and horrible.  I did my own research and found that:

1) Yes, what many of you say about his architecture is partially true.  Don't get me wrong, he is a very successful designer.  But his template holes and inability to capture the golfer are noted. However, he does have some interesting layouts.

2) Despite this, the guy is a good man and a hell of an ambassador for golf.  Good young associates work for the guy.  He takes care of his family.  His clients generally love his work.  Mike Keiser is a friend (thats enough to sell me).

I think it's time that we on this website--me included--who turn up our proverbial noses at one course or another, or one architect or another.  Need to extend an olive branch to all architects that are willing to share their knowledge.  It's a fun, silly game guys.  It stirs our souls at times, and at others its merely an escape to take a walk and have a beer.  In the end though, its a game.

[Greg Tallman]

Always an intersting discussion but if 99% of the golfing universe LOVES his work and 1% sees it "for what it is"... who is correct? Besides Fazio giving the masses what they want I mean.

[Kalen Braley]

Greg,

I don't agree with your premise because the masses generally don't get to play Fazio's works as they are mostly private.

No doubt though, many who can afford to pay for his services do seem to like his work.  And I've often wondered if part of it isn't because they figure he's the "best money can buy".

[Sean Leary]

A couple of questions.

1) Can someone post some of the template holes he uses over and over again on his courses?I often hear this criticism on his Florida courses. Just want to see it. Not, false fronts on greens sorta stuff, but full hole or green templates.  Hole A with green D is what I am looking for,

2) Are there any designers that have as many courses as he has that do not have similar template holes. I would think that the designers that have 200 plus would all have this.

Of his courses I have played, I see similar "visuals" more than holes. But I haven't played as many as others have, and have never played any of his Florida stuff.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

I don't agree with your premise because the masses generally don't get to play Fazio's works as they are mostly private.

No doubt though, many who can afford to pay for his services do seem to like his work.  And I've often wondered if part of it isn't because they figure he's the "best money can buy".

Kalen, Just speaking from experience with the "average golfer" who when presented with a Fazio course seem to react as though they are in heaven. Of course most of them are into waterfalls and such as well and as Jerry Seinfeld said... "not that there is anything wrong with that"

I believe the average player goes to the course to escape having to think for a while... Fazio designs afford that opportunity whereas say Tom Doak designs are all about provoking thought (strategy/options... etc). Both are "great" in their own right but appeal to a vastly different audience. The real question is who crosses over better?

[Garland Bayley]

Time for the periodical dog-pile on Fazio.  While I agree with some of the criticism, I'm compelled to ask:  Who among us has been as commercially successful in our respective professions?

Bogey

Hey Bogey,

What's that? Your Walmart commercial?
 

[Garland Bayley]

I would actually believe him if he said he had never heard of GCA.  He really doesn't concern himself with much of this kind of stuff. 

I'll bet his associates have heard of GCA though.

Lester

You kidding me? Read between the lines! His kids are constantly reading GCA and trying to get him to respond.

[Lou_Duran]

I too would like a list of the template holes.  I've played at least 25 Fazio courses all over the country and I still haven't found the evidence generally noted by his critics.  On the other hand, I've played half-dozen of Raynor's courses and with a much smaller body of work there is considerable repetition.  But here Fazio is a money-driven, cookie-cutter faux designer, and Raynor is an iconoclastic architectural genius.  Are we into frank discussion and objective analysis or just into trendy, elitist group-think?  Do we just have a bias in favor of short, relatively open courses where most of the challenge is on and around tricky, highly contoured green complexes?  Do we tend to dismiss courses which require more effort from the tee, are better balanced, and cost more to build and play?

 

[Damon Groves]

Boy...I'm a whole lot more smarter now.   

Could the interviewer be any more fawning or ask less architecturally relevant questions?   I was on the edge of my seat reading about the Father/Son tournaments he plays in annually, or how he always watches the right side of golf holes.

If there wasn't already reason to bemoan the loss of real journalists.... 

I agree. Typical Fabio. But what do you expect from a guy that has his little template of golf holes and demands a fortune moving the ground into a mold he had in his head before he ever stepped foot on the ground. While this may be an exaggeration it is not far off.

[George Pazin]

If this site is going to progress any further than it has then it need to accept different design philosophies without attack and learn from them.....

Hear, hear.

I've met a few developers who've used Fazio and they are generally effusive in their praise for the man.  That he keeps getting the work speaks for itself.

What does Cuban have to do with Fazio?  Commercial success?  For the sake of argument, let's just say Cuban got "lucky" once.  How many courses has Fazio built?

And at what point in time does critical acclaim have to reflect some semblance of public acceptance and perception?  If no one bought a Picasso or ate at a fancy restaurant, does a critic's specialized sensitivities and discernment amount to anything? 

I guess when even my good friend Lou misunderstands, I need to explain again.

What does Cuban have to do with Fazio? NOTHING. That's partly why I chose him. My point was that commercial success isn't a particularly good barometer when discussing golf course architecture. No one disputes Fazio's success, and I haven't heard anyone say he's anything other than a great guy as a person. I just don't see the need to point that out, when discussing his architecture.

I don't even think I need to point out the highly misleading nature of Mackenzie's finances and Doak's recent NLEs...but if someone needs me to explain that one, too, feel free to message me.

 

[Greg Tallman]

Boy...I'm a whole lot more smarter now.   

Could the interviewer be any more fawning or ask less architecturally relevant questions?   I was on the edge of my seat reading about the Father/Son tournaments he plays in annually, or how he always watches the right side of golf holes.

If there wasn't already reason to bemoan the loss of real journalists.... 

I agree. Typical Fabio. But what do you expect from a guy that has his little template of golf holes and demands a fortune moving the ground into a mold he had in his head before he ever stepped foot on the ground. While this may be an exaggeration it is not far off.

While they certiany spent a small fortune here at Chileno Bay (reportedly $34 million) I do not believe there was a huge earth moving effort. The course flows naturally with the terrain and is far from you "cookie cutter" classification. You can see it on another thread "Name the architect" where some even call it Doakesque.

[tlavin]

  Are we into frank discussion and objective analysis or just into trendy, elitist group-think? 

 

Trendy, elitist, group-think, with some ill-informed amateurish baseline knowledge, thank you very much.

[Garland Bayley]

  Are we into frank discussion and objective analysis or just into trendy, elitist group-think? 

 

Trendy, elitist, group-think, with some ill-informed amateurish baseline knowledge, thank you very much.

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."  H.L. Mencken
 

Thank you for the tag line Terry.

[Richard Choi]

There is some precedence from the art world where if an artist is widely accepted by general public, he/she is shunned by the critics and "in" circles.

For example, Thomas Kinkade is perhaps the most commercially successful artist alive today. But his work is collected mostly by the "heart of the America" types and not by the NY art crowd. They practically despise it.

Now, the question is, is Tom Fazio more like Thomas Kinkade where the work is so general public friendly (charming cottage scenes, dreamy colors, etc.) that it is really not of any artistic merit? OR is it more like Monet which is adored by the general public and art crowd alike?

[Tom_Doak]

Richard:

That would depend on whether you think the GOLF DIGEST panel or GOLF CLUB ATLAS constitutes "the art crowd" in golf.