[Matthew Mollica]

I was chatting about course design with a friend today.

He asked if there is a course where a long driver, who put his ball in the fairway,
consistently played from a less than idea spot when approaching greens.
Where he "over-shoots" the ideal approach spot, yet still ends up in the fairway.

I couldn't think of such a design in Australia. Is there such a course elsewhere?

Matthew

[Scott Warren]

I played a course in Surrey a fortnight ago that had thick rough crossing the fairway in the 270-300ish zone on several holes. To that end, a 280m drive would be considerably worse off than a 260m hit.

I realise that's not strictly "in the fairway" as per your post, but it's within the margins of the fairway edge for the rest of the hole.

[Jason McNamara]

Generally speaking, I suspect we'd find relatively more examples among older courses in the US.  Older, because it's more likely shorter, with lots of ~370 yd par 4s.  In the US, because (again *gross* generalization) we have fewer half par holes.

So the guy who hits it 300 yds winds up with a bunch of partial wedge shots.  Additional degree of difficulty if the greens are elevated.

[Ross Tuddenham]

 On many short par fours I have felt that I have ended up too close to the green, especially if some bite is required on the wedge approach.  If I had been 100 yards back I could have hit a fuller wedge with more spin and for example got a ball to stop near a pin that required flying a bunker.

There will be numerous examples of such a hole.  Still as a longer hitter I can always take 5 wood instead of driver, hit to same area as short hitters driver and be better off because it is easier to hit 5 wood than driver.

So no the longer straighter hitter can never be at a disadvantage because they can hit less, easier club, from the tee and a shorter club to the green.  You would have to be pretty ignorant to keep bombing a driver to the wrong spot.

[ed_getka]

Matthew,
    I would say the only general example I can think of is on courses with lots of width. In that case the longer hitter can be in the fairway, but be out of position with a poor angle into some pin positions. I would imagine there has to be an example at Royal Melbourne. Having only played there once I can't think of one off the top of my head.

[Matthew Mollica]

Ross, I should have added "non-thinking" golfer to my initial post.

You would have to be pretty ignorant to keep bombing a driver to the wrong spot.

Do you not think lots of golfers simply default to driver on par 4 or par 5 holes?

I am looking for a course design such that driver is invited / offerred as an option on the tee, and where a LONG drive into the fairway is often not the most sound strategic option.

MM

[Ross Tuddenham]

Yes definitely, most people you play with go straight to the driver or if they are having a bad ball striking day a long iron/3 wood but not for strategy reasons.


As for a driver not being the best strategic option I go back to the point that wherever the best spot is it is easier for the better player to place their ball there.  If long does not equate to accurate then that’s where an advantage could be gained.

An example might be the 9th at Augusta, we have all seen balls spin of the front of there, would a shot from further back with a 6 iron have a better chance at staying up?

Not sure what club is hit in as a second shot but in the past before the extensions I think they would be hitting wedges in.  But the further back you are the more in play the greenside bunkers become.

[Bill_McBride]

I think this question has less relevance today than 30 years ago (pre-metal drivers) because today the driver might be the straightest stick in your bag.  It used to be easier to hit three wood straight, but today that's the club you go to if you want to work the ball one way or another.

[Jason Topp]

I've played many desert courses where, if one plays from shorter set of tees, that a driver goes into the desert or must be fit into an extremely narrow area.  Fred Enke, Vistoso and Canoa Hills in the Tucson area are a few that come to mind. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Matthew

If you think in three dimensions instead of two you might have your answer.

Maybe St George's, where holes are laid across ravines at oblique angles such that the golfer must try to drive to the precipice but not over.

The 6th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Seaton Carew may be worth studying for how it might be done in two dimensions. In both cases the shape of the green as well as their offsets may reward the shorter drive.

Seaton Carew's green in particular is a fantasticly shaped like a fan. Combined with the offset, the green makes the golfer think about how far he wants to drive, for the farther he drives the worse the angle coming in.

Mark

[Mark_F]

Matt,

You don't think Newcastle has some element of what you are describing?

You can hit all the fairways there, even on the correct side for that particular time, but may be on an upslope with the wind into you, a downslope to an uphill green or a downslope with the wind behind you if you don't pick your spots carefully and think them through.

Not that it exists anymore, but Gunnamatta was also similar on a few holes - 1, 5, 8, 9, 12 and possibly 15.

It's a good idea on sites with elevation change and a lot of wind, as you really have to pick your spots, then hit your shots with the correct shape and trajectory to account for roll and position.  More of a linear strategy as opposed to a width one.

Doesn't Barnbougle 9 also feature this?

[Kalen Braley]

Matthew,

There is such a course here in the Salt Lake City area called South Mountain golf course.

On at least 2/3rds of the non-par 3s, the further you drive the ball, the more undulated and heaving the fairway gets.  Normal length hitters are often left with a flatter lie from further out and long bombers have to deal with pinch points where trouble exists and contoured fairways that could leave a very awkward stance for the approach shot.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are quite a few old courses around my part of England where the unthinking big hitter simply runs out of fairway where it dog legs. These are courses which were meant to test the scratch player in 1900-1925 and cannot be lengthened. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing I cannot really say.

[C. Squier]

Royal Liverpool.

Sincerely,
Tiger Woods

[JESII]

Matthew,

To meet both criteria (long AND in the fairway) and leave an inferior approach is near impossible I would think...the courses (or even holes) that may meet your question would seem to let the shorter hitters bunt their way along to the green in a serpentine direction, but which asked for a drive into a particular position of the fairway to really have a favorable look at the green...that's alot of words with not much clarity, but I think Paul Cowley has written about an S-shaped fairway on a straight hole.

[Richard Choi]

Royal Liverpool.

Sincerely,
Tiger Woods

Hmmm... I don't think TW would agree with that.

The whole reason why he didn't use his driver was because the fairway was so hard, there was very little chance that he could keep his driver on the fairway and not run in to the rough.

If the question is about being in the fairway long or short, Royal Liverpool does not fit.

[C. Squier]

Royal Liverpool.

Sincerely,
Tiger Woods

Hmmm... I don't think TW would agree with that.

The whole reason why he didn't use his driver was because the fairway was so hard, there was very little chance that he could keep his driver on the fairway and not run in to the rough.

If the question is about being in the fairway long or short, Royal Liverpool does not fit.

He played irons short of the bunkers.  It wasn't the rough he was worried about. 

[Bob Jenkins]

Matthew,

I believe the long driver is rewarded on almost all courses, reason being, that if the course calls for a shorter drive due to doglegs, rough at 280 yards or whatever, they can still get home with a shorter club than the golfer who has to use a driver to get it out 270 or so. If you are a long driver, presumably you are also long with your irons and can hit a shorter iron into a green than the shorter hitter.

I recall Tiger at Sahalee for the 1998 PGA and the 2002 NEC. As I recall, he may not have hit driver at all and was able to hit a 2 iron to where the others hit driver and then a shorter iron in. Therefore, I think the long hitter will always be rewarded.

Bob J

[Matthew Mollica]

Matt,

You don't think Newcastle has some element of what you are describing?

You can hit all the fairways there, even on the correct side for that particular time, but may be on an upslope with the wind into you, a downslope to an uphill green or a downslope with the wind behind you if you don't pick your spots carefully and think them through.

Not that it exists anymore, but Gunnamatta was also similar on a few holes - 1, 5, 8, 9, 12 and possibly 15.

It's a good idea on sites with elevation change and a lot of wind, as you really have to pick your spots, then hit your shots with the correct shape and trajectory to account for roll and position.  More of a linear strategy as opposed to a width one.

Doesn't Barnbougle 9 also feature this?

Thanks for the replies one and all.

Good to see a better batch of replies after the first few, which seemed to miss the point.

It seems the odd hole provides this feature, but it isn't a design philosophy which dominates any one layout from what I can gather. Perhaps for the best, as it might become tiresome.

Mark F, I had thought of Gunnamatta #8 and Barnbougle #9. Your observations on Newcastle are also very insightful. Maybe this exists more at Stockton than I first thought? Your review of the opener for example illustrates this point perfectly.

Mark B, I'll study the 2 holes you mentioned. They sound good.

MM

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was chatting about course design with a friend today.

He asked if there is a course where a long driver, who put his ball in the fairway,
consistently played from a less than idea spot when approaching greens.
Where he "over-shoots" the ideal approach spot, yet still ends up in the fairway.

I couldn't think of such a design in Australia. Is there such a course elsewhere?

There's NOT a course in the UNIVERSE where that would apply !

[Tom Huckaby]

There certainly are holes where one can be in the fairway, but beyond the ideal spot.  That is, where distance control (throttling down) is rewarded.  Think shortish par fours with difficult greens, where it's more ideal to have a full wedge in than a shortish half-wedge... or doglegs where it's better to be back farther and clear than up closer to the green and blocked... such holes do exist.

But a course where on the majority of holes one can over-shoot the ideal approach spot and still be in the fairway?

I'm with Patrick - I don't think such exists.

TH

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