Sherwood Country Club: Let's Discuss

[Kyle Henderson]

I’d love to hear what others think of Sherwood Country Club. Obviously, those who were lucky enough to be hosted there during the King’s Putter might be hesitant to voice criticisms (if there are any ) for fear of offending Peter Wagner, our amazingly gracious host/Club President   , so I’ll ask about the positives.
 
What were the best holes? Best overall qualities of the course? Positive aspects of the selected routing?
 
I’ll nominate #7 as my favorite hole.
 
Tee shot:
 
Anyone who contemplates reaching the green in two must challenge the creek, a rocky chasm of terror that borders the right side of the 1st fairway before cutting across to the left. Fairway bunkers loom straight off the tee to capture shots that one might subconsciously steer away from the creek. Once upon a time, John Daly would play a high draw down to the second fairway. Thus, a tree was planted to prevent members and guests from pelting the houses down the hole’s right side while attempting to match Big John’s masterful feat.
 
Laying up to the second fairway requires some precision. A large oak guards the right side and the creek crosses again before the green which is protected by another oak at the front/left and by a bunker on the right. Hence, layups must challenge the right side oak to yield a clear approach past the left greenside arboreal peril. Otherwise, a wedge must be played over (or a low punch must be hacked under) the greenside tree without running off the back of the putting surface.
 
Put simply: The hole allows for the skilled aggressor to make up strokes while progressively tightening the more one falls out of position.
 
 


Overhead view of the 7th hole, teeing grounds on the left.

View off the tee as captured by Mr. Choi.



Other nominations from the treehouse?

[ed_getka]

Kyle,
   Looks like a daunting hole off the tee. What happens at the green end?

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle,
   Looks like a daunting hole off the tee. What happens at the green end?

At the green end, the approach appears very tight between trees from long distances. Shots that miss a bit right will land or bounce into the bunker. There is a bit of a swale adjacent to the green's left side, beyond which you start to climb a large hill.

I don't remember the green contours very well.

[ed_getka]

How far above the fairway is the green? Can your ball roll back down if you come up short of the green a la #9 Augusta?

[TX Golf]

I have never had the chance to play Sherwood but have watch Tiger's tourney many times..... and am WAY confused.

Do they change the sequence in which the holes are played.

If I remember correcting the 7th you are talking about is the 16th in the tourney, but they don't just switch the nines because 18 is still 18??

Could anyone let me know what the actual sequence is??

Thanks

Robert

[Kyle Henderson]

How far above the fairway is the green? Can your ball roll back down if you come up short of the green a la #9 Augusta?

The hole generally drops from tee to green. There is no significant false front to the green a la Augusta #9.

[Kyle Henderson]

I have never had the chance to play Sherwood but have watch Tiger's tourney many times..... and am WAY confused.

Do they change the sequence in which the holes are played.

If I remember correcting the 7th you are talking about is the 16th in the tourney, but they don't just switch the nines because 18 is still 18??

Could anyone let me know what the actual sequence is??

Thanks

Robert

Robert,
You are correct. This hole is played as #16 during the Target/Chevron World Challenge.

For Tiger's tourney, they flip the nines with the exeption of numbers 9 & 18, which are adjacent and run parallel to one another.

[Peter Wagner]

Kyle,

No one has to fear my sensitivity on discussions of my home course.  Speak freely boys! 
There are some things I'd love to change and in fact I'll start with something I'd correct:  the 17th green.

I know Lou "I own this hole" Duran likes it but for me there is too much undulation in the green for a hole of that length (180 to 235 yards).  To me that green would be fine from say 140 yards.

- Peter

[Kyle Henderson]

Peter,

I'd get rid of the foofy rocks & flowers pile on #16.


I also think a statue honoring one of golf's greatest proponents would lend an air of sophistication to the practice area.

I had something of this likeness in mind.

[Greg Tallman]

Peter,

I'd get rid of the foofy rocks & flowers pile on #16.


I also think a statue honoring one of golf's greatest proponents would lend an air of sophistication to the practice area.

I had something of this likeness in mind.

The hat and the foofy rocks go well together

[Tom Yost]

Here is a shot of #7 green from the 2nd landing area.   Played as a 3-shotter, the approach to the long narrow green should be a wedge if the 2nd shot is negotiated properly to the second landing area.   A very scenic hole.




I thought the par 3s were all pretty tough.  From the blue tees (6558 yds), most played as a mid-iron or more
#3 we did not get to play as it was under renovation.
#6 - 168 yards - Most intimidating tee shot, all carry to a shallow green fronting a rock faced hazard.  No opportunity for bailout that I could see.
#8 - 143 yards - I liked this one, again the tee shot must carry to the green or face a steep uphill chip from a rough covered slope.
#12 - 184 yards - good hole, lake to the right, plenty of bailout left but from a tricky swale below the green.
#17 - 204 yards - long hole with danger right, green shaped to take a fade, some bailout short and left.

I really liked the blind tee shot on 18, but unless a long ball is hit that carries down to the flat, the second shot is a very difficult mid-iron from a downhill lie to a green perched on the edge of a water hazard.

Some other holes I liked :
The short par 4 10th, with green nestled in a hollow surrounded by large oak trees.
The par 5 13th, another neat greensite level or slightly below the fairway with large sycamore trees left and right.

[Kyle Henderson]

Peter,

I also think a statue honoring one of golf's greatest proponents would lend an air of sophistication to the practice area.

I had something of this likeness in mind.

The hat and the foofy rocks go well together

A fair criticism. In my defense, I'm bald.

[Greg Tallman]

Peter,

I'd get rid of the foofy rocks & flowers pile on #16.


I also think a statue honoring one of golf's greatest proponents would lend an air of sophistication to the practice area.

I had something of this likeness in mind.

The hat and the foofy rocks go well together

I understand COMPLETELY

[Peter Wagner]

Peter,

I'd get rid of the foofy rocks & flowers pile on #16.

Kyle,

That rock on #16 is often discussed.  Many dislike a centerline feature like this but it's never bothered me.  I think it would be much better if the player gained some advantage by selecting which side of the rock from the tee.  Maybe if the green were reshaped it might make the rock more strategic. (?)  As it sits now there is little gained by going right or left of the rock off the tee.

Most members aim at the hole and let it go left or right.

One positive point about the rock is that it causes first timers to pause and think about the hole.

#16 is a tough hole for me.  Long, usually in to a breeze, uphill at the end and well bunkered up front.  Not seen in the photo is a large runoff area behind the green.  Too much club on your second will leave a very tricky chip.

The fairway bunkers on the right are fairly recent additions by Nicklaus.  These start about 310 yards from the blue tees so I sort of question the value.  I've never seen anyone in either fairway trap.

I like the large rock just to the left of the green.  It's big - probably 15 feet high and I never mind it if I hook one left and close because it's so much fun to try to loft an L-wedge over the rock and onto the green.  Simple pleasures for a simple mind.

[Peter Wagner]

Kyle,

Your statue suggestion has been forwarded to the Golf & Green Committee and I'll keep you posted.

- Peter

[Bill_McBride]

Here is a shot of #7 green from the 2nd landing area.   Played as a 3-shotter, the approach to the long narrow green should be a wedge if the 2nd shot is negotiated properly to the second landing area.   A very scenic hole.




I thought the par 3s were all pretty tough.  From the blue tees (6558 yds), most played as a mid-iron or more
#3 we did not get to play as it was under renovation.
#6 - 168 yards - Most intimidating tee shot, all carry to a shallow green fronting a rock faced hazard.  No opportunity for bailout that I could see.
#8 - 143 yards - I liked this one, again the tee shot must carry to the green or face a steep uphill chip from a rough covered slope.
#12 - 184 yards - good hole, lake to the right, plenty of bailout left but from a tricky swale below the green.
#17 - 204 yards - long hole with danger right, green shaped to take a fade, some bailout short and left.

I really liked the blind tee shot on 18, but unless a long ball is hit that carries down to the flat, the second shot is a very difficult mid-iron from a downhill lie to a green perched on the edge of a water hazard.

Some other holes I liked :
The short par 4 10th, with green nestled in a hollow surrounded by large oak trees.
The par 5 13th, another neat greensite level or slightly below the fairway with large cottonwood trees left and right.

Tom, I don't know which #6 you were playing, but it was my first of the day in the afternoon after I sat out the morning, and it played more like 190, all carry over those rocks and all that water.  A completely forced carry.  When I foozled my tee ball, a BIP/X ensued. 

However, I was able to redeem myself with an immediate short conceded birdie at #7, so that is my favorite hole at Sherwood!

I haven't played a whole lot of Jack Nicklaus courses, but of those I have played, Sherwood was by far the most difficult for the average to mediocre player.  The forced carries, difficult approach angles, and lots of water on the right make this a tough golf course for most.  Fun indeed, really beautiful in a cool canyon setting, but a real challenge.  As Peter and I discussed, there isn't a lot of play by the ladies as it is just too tough with the forced carries.  I wonder where the members' wives play.

[Tom Yost]

Tom, I don't know which #6 you were playing, but it was my first of the day in the afternoon after I sat out the morning, and it played more like 190, all carry over those rocks and all that water.  A completely forced carry.  When I foozled my tee ball, a BIP/X ensued. 

168 on the scorecard.  In the afternoon, I attempted to hit a high cut 4 hybrid and pulled it dead left into the creekside sycamore trees.  My gap wedge from the drop area hit fat and fell short so my scorecard looked remarkably like yours!

[Jon Spaulding]

I had #5 as my favorite hole. For some reason I do not have a photo of the second shot, as my brother left me with a 220 yard approach in the morning and I was so flustered that I left my camera behind. The tee shot on 5 demands a tight r-l tee ball and a mid-long iron to the green with some area to run the ball in. My only gripe would be the maintenance on the entry to the green where the hillside is maintained as rough. The green is large in scale, well oriented to the right of the fairway and features deep bunkering to the left and mild contours. Well done.

[David Stamm]

7 is my favorite hole. A very good par 5 with a very cool greensite. The creek is well used. 9 is also a very solid hole and I agree with the sentiments of 10. Those 3 are easily my favorites. I don't like the idea of having 10 as the opener. Asking a player to make a go for broke decision on his first shot for the day doesn't work, but that's just my opinion.

[Kalen Braley]

Peter,

While I wasn't able to come out, I think the rock pile on #16 is very cool.  If nothing else its one of the signature features for the course and one of the most unique centerline features I've ever seen.  It'd be a pity to get rid of it based on what I've seen in pics and on TV.

Kalen

[Anthony Gray]

Kyle,

No one has to fear my sensitivity on discussions of my home course.  Speak freely boys! 
There are some things I'd love to change and in fact I'll start with something I'd correct:  the 17th green.

I know Lou "I own this hole" Duran likes it but for me there is too much undulation in the green for a hole of that length (180 to 235 yards).  To me that green would be fine from say 140 yards.

- Peter

   Ok Peter you want a complaint you got it. John Mayhugh and I both agree the pro shop could use a little more orange.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

   The tree to the left of the green on 10 is a little severe when coming in from the left. Bill McBride hit an excellent shot over it onto the green, but there is little room for error there. I hit the tree and droped into waste deep rough around the bunker under the tree. This is the only fairness issue I had. The rough around this bunker may be so high because it is difficult to get to with mowing equiptment. Overall I found the course very playable. The pinched fairway on 18 looks worse on TV than in person. There is plenty of room there and the height of the trees are not restrictive. A wonderful finishing hole. Can't wait to watch in December.

  Anthony

[Richard Choi]

I have played 6 Nicklaus courses (Aliso Viejo,  Bear’s Best – Atlanta, Nicklaus North, The Golden Bear Club at Keene’s Pointe, PGA West Nicklaus Resort, Reflection Bay) and walked one (TPC at Snoqualmie) and I thought Sherwood was the best of the bunch.

I thought in general, the par 5's were pretty strong at Sherwood while par 3's lacked variety (most of them had huge front carries).

My favorite holes:

4th, Par 5, 568 yards
A nice and wide landing area on the drive, but because of the middle bunkers close to the green, you need to select your path based on where the pin is. It would play even better if fairways were running.


5th, Par 4, 455 yards
Dogleg left, but if you hug left you have the trees to deal with. The better angle is from the right and there is ample space (which I missed BOTH times in to the tree!!!). The green has good movement in the middle and left of green is dead.


10th, Par 4, 342 yards
I agree with Tommy, I think this is the best Nicklaus short par 4 I have played. The green is drivable for long hitters as long as you want to hit it over the trees, but it is not recommended. If you leave it short of the green, you really need to know where the pin is as the entrance to the green is pinched by two trees and you may not have a clear shot to the green. A very good risk/reward hole. I really enjoyed it.



11th, Par 5, 531 yards
My favorite par 5 on the course. If you dare, you can try to carry the bunker on the right (and stay clear of the tree on the right) and you get a turbo boost on the other side of the bunker and you may only have a middle iron to the green with minimum hazard between you and the hole. If you stay clear of the trouble to the left, unless you perfectly shape the shot left to right down the narrow corridor, the rough and the side mound on the left will grab the ball and you will have to lay up. The smallish green has severe back to front slope with a ridge down the middle so your distance control needs to be spot on. Fun hole!


14th, Par 5, 531 yards
Ho-hum tee shot, but a brutal green that is about 20 feet above the green with severe back to front slope and guarded by nasty front bunkers. Reminds me of 15th hole at Bethpage Black.


18th, Par 4, 444 yards
A GREAT blind tee shot made even tougher by trees that squeeze the fairway.


One more thing... the course was in great shape with perfect fairways and smooth greens. Peter, if you ranked behind Balturol or Bethpage in Golf Digest Conditioning ranking, you may have grounds for a lawsuit.

[Bob Jenkins]

Kyle,

Thanks for starting this thread. I enjoyed Sherwood much more than I thought I would,
based on my previous experience with Nicklaus courses. Really liked 7 and 18 is a very good
finishing hole. For me, it would have taken a great drive to be able to go for the green in two but
Garland and I managed to hang in there to win that hole. It is a bit intimidating on the drive what with
the narrow fairway but what the heck, I am from the northwest and fairways usually require single file
marches down the middle. Re the "foofy" flowers and rocks in the middle of the 16th fairway, Peter's comment that
there is no benefit to being left or right of the mound is interesting. If one is to place a hazard in the middle of the fairway,
then there should be an advantage derived from placing your drive, left or right, but I did not see any advantage from either side,
no matter where the pin could have been placed.

The entire day was great and we all appreciate Peter sponsoring us. My only negative is that
I am not a fan of the forecaddy role. A foredaddy, being there for all four golfers, means he has no one boss.
He was running ahead and so spent less time with us, has less time to be able to read greens, etc. I would
rather have a caddy for me or me and my partner, even if he were using a cart.

Thanks again, Peter, for a great day!\

Bob Jenkins

[Kyle Henderson]

I have played 6 Nicklaus courses (Aliso Viejo,  Bear’s Best – Atlanta, Nicklaus North, The Golden Bear Club at Keene’s Pointe, PGA West Nicklaus Resort, Reflection Bay) and walked one (TPC at Snoqualmie) and I thought Sherwood was the best of the bunch.

I thought in general, the par 5's were pretty strong at Sherwood while par 3's lacked variety (most of them had huge front carries).

My favorite holes:

4th, Par 5, 568 yards

11th, Par 5, 531 yards

14th, Par 5, 531 yards

Richard,
I agree that the par 5’s at Sherwood were very strong overall. Obviously, I already sang the praises of #7 while you mentioned 4, 11, and 14. That leaves #2, which is also a goodie.

#2 features a pretty sizeable drop from the back tees to the fairway, with oaks guarding the right and bunkers left. The fairway climbs steadily from there to the green, forcing mortals to lay up towards the single bunker on the left for a clear shot at the green with their 3rd swing. A bit of a bowl wraps around the back of the green, but thick rough will snag anything that overshoots the putting surface, leaving a dicey downhill chip.


It is also noteworthy that the par 5’s play west, north, east, northeast, and doglegging from southwest to south, respectively. All points of the compass are covered.