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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2009, 05:39:27 PM »
Is this place close enough to the Tampa Bay and Orlando areas to keep it going?  I would think the marketing of this course could be a mixed on a national and local level.  Perhaps even offer discounts to residents who live within 50 miles.  Just wondering. 

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2009, 08:52:14 AM »
One friend who plays there regularly is concerned the price will double if this happens.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2009, 09:27:24 AM »
If you price cart equal to caddie than a large number of people will opt for carts which I believe is exactly what Mr Keiser doesn't want based on the current policy.

When we have taken caddies we have always paid them more than 50 or 60 when you factor in a tip anyway.

I might support a cart fee of $150 (and free pull carts) for non disabled patrons.

Tim-

That is what I was getting at, if cost is no difference and you could physically walk the course, I could think of no advantage of taking a cart.

Pat - I know where you are coming from, but I think there a lot more physically able people out there that would ride for neutral value than you think.  If your desire is to have a walking only course, then the way to do it is to take away the option to ride.  I don't think Mr. Keiser's model in Bandon simply calls for "fewer than the normal number of riders."  He wants people to walk.

Kyle Harris

Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2009, 09:46:29 AM »
Is this place close enough to the Tampa Bay and Orlando areas to keep it going?  I would think the marketing of this course could be a mixed on a national and local level.  Perhaps even offer discounts to residents who live within 50 miles.  Just wondering. 

They have these discounts. I never paid more than $30 to play there.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2009, 10:20:01 AM »
Hey lets talk architecture. If Keiser is buying the two courses, and he feels they need some upgrading or freshening to market them as his, who does he hire for the renovations?  Would he respect Faz enough to bring him back but give him his own special directions as to changes?  Bring in Doak, Kidd, Urbina or Coore? Or have a collaboration of Faz and any one of those two a la Sebonac?

Does he give the Band Pac (hey I just coined a phrase evoking Sinatra and gang!) the new courses, or give Silva (who was once rumored for Old Mac) or other guys a try?

Yes, its speculation, so no knife throwing.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2009, 12:02:58 PM »
I think Silva was rumored for Bandon Trails, not Old Mac

Having an east coast option like Bandon would be awesome. 

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2009, 12:54:19 PM »
For those who feel a change in ownership would be a good thing, for what exactly are you willing to pay double the greens fee?...on site housing? conditioning? more courses? walking only? other?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2009, 01:18:03 PM »
If you price cart equal to caddie than a large number of people will opt for carts which I believe is exactly what Mr Keiser doesn't want based on the current policy.

When we have taken caddies we have always paid them more than 50 or 60 when you factor in a tip anyway.

I might support a cart fee of $150 (and free pull carts) for non disabled patrons.

Tim-

That is what I was getting at, if cost is no difference and you could physically walk the course, I could think of no advantage of taking a cart.

Pat - I know where you are coming from, but I think there a lot more physically able people out there that would ride for neutral value than you think.  If your desire is to have a walking only course, then the way to do it is to take away the option to ride.  I don't think Mr. Keiser's model in Bandon simply calls for "fewer than the normal number of riders."  He wants people to walk.

As a resident of the deep south who enjoys walking in Oregon anytime, I can tell you there are times in the Brooksville area when you won't find 5% willing to walk.  93 degrees, 80% humidity, ah joy.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2009, 02:44:17 PM »
Sorry Bill I was posting on the OT rant about the policy in Oregon. Wouldn't expect the same in Florida though I hope it would be an option year round.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2009, 02:47:10 PM »
It sounds like I should get down to WW sooner rather than later. Time for a road trip.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2009, 03:00:53 PM »
Anyone with any guesses as to rounds played at WW in a given year?

60K???
70K???
80K???

David Botimer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2009, 11:47:22 PM »
Why not just make carts the same cost of taking a caddy? $50-$60 a person?
[/quote]

With regard to Bandon, a caddie is required with the cart already.  That will probably never change, given the ease of getting lost and need to avoid certain areas in the cart.  For example, the transition from Bandon Trails 13 green to 14 tee is a LITTLE confusing as is 14 tee to fairway, 15 green to 16 tee.

As for the general use of carts at Bandon, Mr. Keiser has a very clear image of the "retail golfer" he seeks as his customer base.  I believe he knows the second he opens the door to this is the second Bandon ceases to be the special place it currently is, an ode to the history and traditions of golf including links courses, walking and the opportunity for the use of a walking caddie.

Ben Kodadek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2009, 08:54:09 AM »
I actually played both courses at World Woods yesterday (greens fees for 36 and cart was $115).  I play up there about 5 times a year (less than an hour from my home in downtown Tampa).  I can honestly say that the conditioning of the golf course was the best I have seen in years.  Pine Barrens was fantastic, playing fast and firm.  The greens rolled very nicely.
Rolling Oaks was also in good shape, with the greens a bit slower however.   

I had read the speculation about MK before heading up and spent a better part of the afternoon daydreaming about the idea of WW becoming a world class resort.  While some have mentioned "understated" and "no snobbery, " the place clearly needs an overhaul.  The dining area is actually unsanitary, as the same sweaty golfers have been sitting in the cloth chairs for the last 12 years, deciding between chicken strips or a hot dog. 

The chance to have some cabins with some nicer dining options would be extremely attractive to  most in the area.   

 I would say that both courses are very walkable.  However, the idea of walking 36 holes in September is virtually unfathomable.  The heat is just oppressive, with virtually no breeze to speak of that time of year.  I am younger and have run a couple of marathons in the last year, but doubt I could walk 36 holes that time of year. 

Lastly, I would estimate that almost all rounds (save for July -Sept when fees are $25 and the chance of a rain out is at least 50%) played at WW are from people who "road trip" it.  As we arrived, most of the automobiles were SUV's with 3-4 guys spilling out of them.  I would imagine that the local market of Hernando county doesn't account for many rounds.  Additionally, there is enough golf in the area (Dunes at Seville, Brooksville CC, etc.) that offer cheap green fees year round, that an upscale resort with upscale pricing would not affect the local golfer.   

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2009, 09:46:13 AM »
Why not just make carts the same cost of taking a caddy? $50-$60 a person?

With regard to Bandon, a caddie is required with the cart already.  That will probably never change, given the ease of getting lost and need to avoid certain areas in the cart.  For example, the transition from Bandon Trails 13 green to 14 tee is a LITTLE confusing as is 14 tee to fairway, 15 green to 16 tee.

As for the general use of carts at Bandon, Mr. Keiser has a very clear image of the "retail golfer" he seeks as his customer base.  I believe he knows the second he opens the door to this is the second Bandon ceases to be the special place it currently is, an ode to the history and traditions of golf including links courses, walking and the opportunity for the use of a walking caddie.
[/quote]

I really don't mean to bash Mr. Keiser.  I have the utmost respect and admiration for what he has accomplished at Bandon.  My only difficulty and it is not insignificant is the hurdle he places on those with disabilities.

Not only is it a difficult process and inconvenient, he forces the disabled to take a caddy.  It is bad enough to be unable to walk a golf course but now to charge for a caddy and make the round that much more expensive is unjust.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2009, 09:50:07 AM »


The chance to have some cabins with some nicer dining options would be extremely attractive to  most in the area.   

  

Ben how much would you be willing to pay for a greens fee in order to stay on site and have better food?

Ben Kodadek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2009, 10:15:39 AM »
Cliff,

Assuming that they were nice facilities with good-very good dining options, I would probably be comfortable paying $200/round with a replay of $50-$75.  That said, I would expect the courses to be in tremendous shape.  I think that a rate of $150/night would be reasonable. 

Jason McNamara

Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2009, 10:15:52 AM »
Travel time from NY:

TPA: almost 3 hours, then 1 easy hr to WW
            (toll road runs next to airport, ends literally 3/4 mile from WW)
PDX: almost 6 hours, and then you drive 4-5 hrs to Bandon

January averages:

Spring Hill, FL:  70 / 45
Bandon:  54 / 38 (and 9 inches of rain)
Myrtle Beach:  57 / 34
Lloydminster, AB-SK:   8 Kelvin / even less
      (for you Alberta Dunes folks)

So add another course or two @ WW, put in some cabins, and at that point the only additional infrastructure required is [add your favorite steakhouse here].

It's a win for architecture, for East Coast golfers, for the local economy, for area golfers assuming there's a greens fee for locals.  The only losers in this scenario are current fans who would not support the big ticket move - and yeah, it is a crappy deal for them.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2009, 10:27:59 AM »
Cliff,

Assuming that they were nice facilities with good-very good dining options, I would probably be comfortable paying $200/round with a replay of $50-$75.  That said, I would expect the courses to be in tremendous shape.  I think that a rate of $150/night would be reasonable. 

Ben..Thanks for an honest response.  For me it's all about the golf.  I really don't care about dining options.  In some ways the less the better.  I happen to like hot dogs 8)...As for accomodations on site is great but not at a premium price.  I would be shocked if accomodations were built that the price would be less than $200 a nite and I suspect quite more based on Bandon's pricing..For my taste $115 is plenty for a round of golf and I would never play WW at $200.

 My favorite golf course for ambiance is a course called Prout's Neck in Maine.  Private but you can get on if you stay at an inn across the street.  Quite reasonable before the summer rush.  Understated Yankee/New England class.  No carts except for the disabled, but no hassle for the disabled.  No clubhouse to speak of. I did not notice food anywhere. Check in at proshop and there was a small building that may have been a quasi clubhouse but not open in June.  The place was wonderful.  Never waited and the epitome of peaceful golf.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2009, 01:18:24 PM »
Seems to me a limited lodging option nestled into the practice area would make for a perfect setting for a true golf vacation.  A handful of nice cottacges could easily be sprinkled around the area.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World Woods... a new twist
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2009, 08:02:23 AM »
Why not just make carts the same cost of taking a caddy? $50-$60 a person?

With regard to Bandon, a caddie is required with the cart already.  That will probably never change, given the ease of getting lost and need to avoid certain areas in the cart.  For example, the transition from Bandon Trails 13 green to 14 tee is a LITTLE confusing as is 14 tee to fairway, 15 green to 16 tee.

As for the general use of carts at Bandon, Mr. Keiser has a very clear image of the "retail golfer" he seeks as his customer base.  I believe he knows the second he opens the door to this is the second Bandon ceases to be the special place it currently is, an ode to the history and traditions of golf including links courses, walking and the opportunity for the use of a walking caddie.

I really don't mean to bash Mr. Keiser.  I have the utmost respect and admiration for what he has accomplished at Bandon.  My only difficulty and it is not insignificant is the hurdle he places on those with disabilities.

Not only is it a difficult process and inconvenient, he forces the disabled to take a caddy.  It is bad enough to be unable to walk a golf course but now to charge for a caddy and make the round that much more expensive is unjust.
[/quote]

People on here forget that World Woods wouldn't be MK's first time buying/owning a tradtional public golf course built for cart golf and getting people around asap...he is a principal investor in The Glen Club in Chicago. A **gasp** Tom Fazio design.
H.P.S.