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Carl Rogers

Usually on this site when a course changes, the consensus is the changes are for the worst.  Are there any examples where change was a clear improvement?

Cliff Hamm

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 08:46:49 PM »
TPC Boston

Mike Hendren

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 09:17:54 PM »
Idle Hour
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kyle Christensen

Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 09:20:38 PM »
Rivermont. Never played the course before the renovations, but I think it is safe to say it improved after the re-do.


Mike_Clayton

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2009, 10:09:49 PM »
At the risk of being accused of a bias Royal Queensland, Lake Karrinyup, The Lakes, Grange West and both courses at Peninsula (all in Australia) are significantly better than they ever were.
It was mainly because all the clubs committed to doing the jobs properly by addressing the isues of trees and rebilding the greens and bunkers - as well as the design flaws that needed to be rectified.

RJ_Daley

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2009, 10:20:51 PM »
Would Olympia Fields South qualify?
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Scott Stambaugh

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 10:36:52 PM »
Hard to argue with MPCC Shore

SS

Joel_Stewart

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2009, 10:42:36 PM »
If you're looking for Top to bottom then,

MPCC shore for sure.

Del Paso CC in Sacramento as well.  A complete rebuild by Kyle Phillips, the course turned out to be a huge financial success for the club.

Cal Club was not a top to bottom.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 10:50:31 PM by Joel_Stewart »

Brad Klein

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2009, 10:44:29 PM »
restoration-oriented renovations, even one as dramatic as Cal Club's, come to mind. It's harder to think of a modern course that got thoroughly amended and improved in the process, but here goes

Classic:
California GC of San Francisco
Aronimink
Brookside CC, Canton
Augusta CC
Mount Washington Resort GC
Pine Needles
Beverly
Minikahda
Cape Fear
Forsyth CC
Sedgefield CC
CC of Charlotte
Carolina GC
Olympia Fields-South
Idle Hour
French Lick-Hill Course
Franklin Hills
Biltmore GC, Miami
Brickyard Crossing

Modern:
MPCC-Shore Course
Quail Hollow
Pete Dye River Course of Virginia Tech
Village Links of Glen Ellyn
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 08:33:29 AM by Brad Klein »

Sean Leary

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2009, 10:48:23 PM »
Has anyone played Ocean's Edge on Cape Cod since the redo?

Mike McGuire

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2009, 10:49:47 PM »
Skokie

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2009, 10:50:28 PM »
Actually, I think we will start to see a lot of 60-80's courses renovated, especially the public ones that were built on a shoestring budget and need major drainage, irrigation and environmental retrofits.  Most people think that era was kind of bland compared to what followed, since design was focused mostly on cost and maintenance for many courses built then.  

One example from my portfolio is Indian Creek, a fine Dick Phelps routing and course that just wore out under heavy play and inadequate maintenance, but which was also done on shoe string and had too few bunkers, etc. for upscale play.  I know Dick and Rick (who reads here) would question whether my work was an improvement but the new image has spurred play for a few years, so it worked.

BTW, I also think a small number of top courses from that era will also be restored.  Look at the change in perception for Bellreive from the last major to the first one held there, which was recieved about as well as Hazeltine.  We need to make sure to preserve some RTJ work, and last time I played Hazeltine, I saw a lot to like out there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2009, 10:53:53 PM »
These are a few other potential candidates for the list:

Shinnecock Hills
Muirfield
Turnberry
Rye
Milwaukee
Garden City


John Foley

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2009, 11:09:07 PM »
Wouldn't a complete top to bottom re-do mean a routing change rather than a hole-hole update??

Hmmm - How would Bethpage Black fall into this category?

Brad - How extensive we're the changes at Minikahda?

Ian - How much was done at Garden City?

Sean - I asked that question awhile back and I have yet to find a participant who has played it.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2009, 11:50:53 PM »
White Manor in Malvern, PA. Bobby Weed totally transformed this course winning Renovation of the Year by Golf, Inc magazine.

www.whitemanorcc.com/coursetour.htm
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Scott Sander

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 07:07:42 AM »
-The Fort
-CommonGround (this is a presumption as I have not played CG.  But I was a regular at Mira Vista and CG has to be better.)
-a second for Brickyard Crossing

Adam Clayman

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2009, 08:31:15 AM »
Brad Klein. Was that the village links. Of Glen.Ellyn?      Shadow creek's recent work has had significant impact on the quality of golf. Mr.Fazio has clearly changed (evolved) over these 20 years.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brad Klein

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2009, 08:35:00 AM »
Yes, thanks for the correction, Adam. Village Links of Glen Ellyn, which I included because it was a total redo of an existing routing into a very pleasant municipal tract on the west side of Chicagoland.

Scott Weersing

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 08:37:36 AM »
I like the complete re-do on Olivas Links in Ventura. It was a 1968 design with palm trees and such. Forrest came in a redid the entire thing.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28898.0.html

It seems that a re-do only improves a poor course. It is hard to take a good course and make it great with a re-do.

Is a re-do a change in routing and a renovation is changing tees and greens?

Another re-do would be the work by Doak at Atlantic City CC.


PCCraig

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 08:49:38 AM »
Yes, thanks for the correction, Adam. Village Links of Glen Ellyn, which I included because it was a total redo of an existing routing into a very pleasant municipal tract on the west side of Chicagoland.

Brad that is interesting that you include Village Links. I haven't played there in 10 years, perhaps I should make a trip out to the west suburbs soon.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 08:50:58 AM »
TPC Boston

I agree very much Cliff. Even still I think they would of been better starting over, including a new routing. The course that was there before was mind-numbing from the back tees.

I would also add the work R. Jones has done at Bellerive, I find the changes made to be a gigantic step forward.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 08:52:36 AM by Pat Craig »
H.P.S.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2009, 08:58:05 AM »
the 27 holes at Forest Park in St. Louis, now known as Norman Probstein Golf Course.

In addition, the other nine hole course (Triple A) on the other side of the park is currently undergoing a major overhaul.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2009, 09:17:56 AM »
You're ALL wrong ;D

A  COMPLETE redo, includes an entirely new routing.

I nominate Commonwealth National.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2009, 09:39:19 AM »
For those who don't know about Commonwealth National in suburban Philly, it opened in 1990 on the former grounds of Hidden Springs GC, a 36 hole complex. Palmer Design created a totally new 18 hole course on the exisiting property interspersed between office buildings that the new owner developed.

www.commonwealthgolfclub.com

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2009, 09:53:13 AM »
You're ALL wrong ;D

A  COMPLETE redo, includes an entirely new routing.

I nominate Commonwealth National.

The Forest Park renovation was a "major redo".  The original 27 was an easy 9-holer and a more challenging 18-holer that did not return to the clubhouse.  The new course is 3 separate nines all returning to the vicinity of the clubhouse.  The 1st and 18th from the old 18-holer is now part of the easier 9, but the holes are reversed.  The land from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 17th is no longer part of the golf course.  The old 5th through 8th and 11th through 16th are similar all though some with completely new greens and bunkering.  The old par-5 ninth is now 2 holes, a par-4 and a par-3.  The old par-3 10th is not a short par-4.  One green is now a biarritz, the old course never had a biarritz hole.  There is now a rectangle green, there are now false fronts.  None of these existed on the old 27 holes.

The first four holes of one of the 3 nines consisits of the following routing from the old-18: 5, 6, 15, 16.  One of the other nines consists of the following routing:
new 9   -   old 18
1           -    8
2           -    9
3           -    9 (The old ninth is now the 2nd and the third holes. 
                       A very long par-5 changed to a par-4 and a par-3.)
4           -  10
5           -  11
6           -  12
7           -  13
8           -  14
9           -    7

Only 10 of the original 27 holes are the same routing, and many of those 10 holes are new and different greens and bunkering.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 09:59:43 AM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

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