What courses have been improved by a complete top to bottom re-do?

[Cliff Hamm]

TPC Boston

I agree very much Cliff. Even still I think they would of been better starting over, including a new routing. The course that was there before was mind-numbing from the back tees.

I would also add the work R. Jones has done at Bellerive, I find the changes made to be a gigantic step forward.

A new routing especially for spectators.  I have attended many professional tournaments and 4 or 5 at TPC Boston.  It is without a doubt the worst venue for a professional tournament ever.  30k fans or so trying to get over 8 foot wide wooden bridges simply doesn't work. The course simply is not designed to hold a professional tournament.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I can't vouch for the original routing, but Eugene CC.

UNC Finley (new) is a little better than the old.

Little known The Cape, in Wilmington, NC is close to re-opening as Masonboro CC, as a total renovation (within the same hole corridors)....but what I've seen so far just looks really, really HARD.  An aged previous membership will likely hate the new version. 

[Doug Wright]

Brad - How extensive we're the changes at Minikahda?

John,  I'm not Brad but... the Ron Prichard restoration of Minikahda (Ross) was quite extensive. Hundreds of trees removed, greens restored to their original sizes, all bunkers redone and some added. No routing changes. A major improvement IMO.

Prichard also did a major re-do at Wilmington Municipal that was really good.

[Jed Peters]

Del Paso CC in Sacramento as well.  A complete rebuild by Kyle Phillips, the course turned out to be a huge financial success for the club.

Not sure where you're getting your information there, Joel.

[Carl Johnson]

restoration-oriented renovations, even one as dramatic as Cal Club's, come to mind. It's harder to think of a modern course that got thoroughly amended and improved in the process, but here goes

Classic:
 . . .
Carolina GC
 . . .

As a member of Charlotte's Carolina GC [Ross, 1929] I second Brad's opinion that our recent top to bottom re-do by Kris Spence has resulted in a substantial net improvement.  (I'm not a board member or committee member who had anything to do with the re-do, by the way.)  As with any re-do, not all of the changes are making everyone happy, but I do not think many would question that overall our re-do has been a great success.  Is it still a "Ross course?"  You could argue that one all day -- I'm sure it's a general topic that has already been debated to death in this discussion group.  Personally, I think of the course now as a "Ross-Spence design."  I'm not sure what the Club's official position on this issue is, if we have one.  Moreover, I'm not even sure it really matters.

[Michael Whitaker]

Usually on this site when a course changes, the consensus is the changes are for the worst.  Are there any examples where change was a clear improvement?

Heron Point at Sea Pines Resort (redo of former Sea Marsh course by Pete Dye)

Founders Club at Pawley's Island (redo of former Sea Gull Golf Club by Thomas Walker)

Pine Lakes Country Club (redo of former Pine Lakes International by Craig Schreiner)

Furman University Golf Club (redo by Kris Spence)

Riverside Course at Greenville Country Club (redo by Brian Silva)

Country Club of Spartanburg (redo by Kris Spence)

[Phil Benedict]

Whippoorwill started as a Ross and became a Banks.  Not sure where Ross ends and Banks begins as far as routing, but the green complexes are all Banks. 

Its a great course, but since the Banks redo happened decades ago, I'm not sure what it was like as a Ross.

Back when he was posting, didn't Wayne Morrison cite examples of Flynn fixing up substandard work by Ross?

[Joel_Stewart]

Del Paso CC in Sacramento as well.  A complete rebuild by Kyle Phillips, the course turned out to be a huge financial success for the club.

Not sure where you're getting your information there, Joel.

Kyle Phillips.

[Joel_Stewart]

I played at Ft. Ord yesterday which is a 36 hole facility in Monterey that both courses had a complete re-do by Gene Bates.  This is a perfect example of why the same architect should not be allowed to work on both courses.   

Is it improved, yes.  Is it great, no.  Was I disappointed, yes.

[Chuck Brown]

Um, how about the Kiawah Ocean Course?  I've been there but not played the course -- hasn't it recovered from Hurricane damage in a kinder, gentler incarnation?  I know that not all of it has been renovated or redesigned.  But does it merit mention?

Would Scioto merit the trifecta?  Good design, followed by disastous change, followed by good redesign?  In the case of Scioto, I understand that none of the changes were in any way "restorations."  They were all changes, to try to create different/better holes.

[David Stamm]

Soule Park.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I recently played the Brickyard at Riverside in Macon.  I know it doesnt merit to be on the same as some of the courses listed, but I would have never thought that the "old" design would even break into GA's top 100.  It was just listed in the Golf Digest as #16 (I think) in GA....I think its becuase of the renovations and the dedication of a club driven by golf first then club stuff second....like pool, clubhouse, etc.

Tons of fun shots and strategy.  Its a McCumber redo....thumps Idle Hour IMHO...even though they are 2 different styles.  I do like the old school greens of Idle Hour but I dont like the forced newer par 3 over water and a few other design warts that dont mesh with the old lines of the course....plus the last 3 finishing holes at Idle Hour need dynamite IMHO.

[Tom Huckaby]

Of those who say MPCC-Shore is a no brainer for this, I have to ask:  how many of you played it all that much as it was before?

I ask because, well... to me it's not the no-brainer at all that you state.  Oh on the overall I do believe the new course is superior.  But not by leaps and bounds... CONDITIONS were improved for sure.. it's now firm and fast pretty much year round where it used to be soggy in the winter.   Exterior views were improved as so many holes now have the backdrop of Cypress Point, but again that doesn't count, right Pat Mucci?     On the overall it is a slightly more fun golf course, for sure.

But lost were a set of 18 fantastic greens... and the trade in finishing holes was a trade down also as the old one was fantastic, the new one, well... comparable to 18 Cypress Point (I don't hate either, but many hate both).

In any case, improved it was.  MOST improved, no brainer to be on this list?

I wonder.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the routing isn't changed, it's not a top to bottom redo, and thus ineligible for consideration, don't you dolts understand that ?

[Kalen Braley]

But Patrick...

How can this be?  I thought the property dictated the routing?   

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39516.0.html

[J_ Crisham]

Exmoor, OFCC  South, Skokie, Beverly, Evanston, all very fine redos in the Chicago area. Probably a few I have left out.
                                              Jack

[Patrick_Mucci]

Exmoor, OFCC  South, Skokie, Beverly, Evanston, all very fine redos in the Chicago area. Probably a few I have left out.
                                              Jack

Jack,

How was Beverly a complete redo ?

Did they disfigure Ross's work ?

[Carl Rogers]

I did not intend to get into a difficult discussion on what is meant by a re-do.

Pete Dye's River Course in Radford, VA was a re-do of an Ault-Clark.  How much of a re-do, I do not know.  Extremely attractive property skirting the edge of the New River with a figure 8 routing on each 9.

[Sam Maryland]

The St. Simon's Island Club...

...now called Retreat.

A frog is now a prince.

[J_ Crisham]

Pat,  Beverly wasn't a complete redo in the sense of top to bottom. I would submit that it was quite significant. We brought back lost bunkers, reconfigured existing bunkers, recreated the square tee boxes,took out several hundred trees , reestablished green extensions etc. I personally feel that Ross's design has been masterfully ressurected from the course I recall where it became a forest with poor greens ,drainage issues etc. I feel that Pritchard did a fine job and my guess would be that the course we have today is a better course that provides a fine examination of one's game tee to green. I wish that Charley Penna could be here to see it !
         Wish you well,  Jack

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jack,

It had been my understanding that Beverly was a "restoration" not a redo.

I knew Charlie Penna, he invited me to Beverly years ago.
I also knew his brother Toney, who was a good friend of my dad's.

I even know Kevin Boyd.

When you see Kevin, tell him I was asking for him.
I was in South Beach last week, but, didn't see him.

[Kris Spence]

Pete's 5 or 6 redo's of TPC Sawgrass.  Its a vastly better course than the original version.

[Matthew Mollica]

At the risk of being accused of a bias Royal Queensland, Lake Karrinyup, The Lakes, Grange West and both courses at Peninsula (all in Australia) are significantly better than they ever were.

Don't worry - they were the first five I thought of

Liddy's work at the Dukes Course in St Andrews must be a contender.
I'm surprised noone's mentioned it already.

Matthew

[Derek Dirksen]

I played at Ft. Ord yesterday which is a 36 hole facility in Monterey that both courses had a complete re-do by Gene Bates.  This is a perfect example of why the same architect should not be allowed to work on both courses.  

Is it improved, yes.  Is it great, no.  Was I disappointed, yes.

It was definately improved.  Was like a dog track before.  I believe the routing was kept the same for the Bayonete course.  The routing was redone for the Blackhorse course.  The bunker styles are totally different between the two courses.  The greens on the blackhorse have more movement.  The faiways are wider and more movement on the Blackhorse as well.  The Bayonete fairways are tight and tree lined.  I do like what they did to the trees on the property.  They took a lot of trees out and trimed what wasn't taken.  Two totally different courses if you ask me.

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