News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike_Cirba

My lord, it's good!
« on: May 11, 2003, 07:33:26 PM »
I hope we haven't talked The Kingsley Club to death in here already, but...

I just spent back to back 36 hole days at Crystal Downs, followed by TKC....

The oft-asked question is how Golf Digest managed to completely miss the boat on this one.  After playing it, the obvious thought that comes to my mind is that their rating "criteria" needs some thought and revision.  Still, I don't want this thread to degenerate into another ratings discussion.

Instead, I wanted to offer some possibly controversial thoughts and comparisons off the top of my head and see what reactions and responses are generated;

For a course that one would want to play every day of the two, Crystal Downs is simply too demanding and punitive around the greens to come out on top.  It beats the crap out of the golfer, not through distance requirements on most holes, but because of the fact that depending on hole location, there is often only ONE place to place your approach to have any chance of getting down in two.

There are a number of greens, most conspicuously #9, 11 & 13, where even a really good shot is not enough.  Instead, some of the greens are so severe in their demands that they no longer necessarily reward a thoughtful approach but instead penalize anything but a shot that also carries a high degree of good luck.  In fact, one could reasonably argue that greens of the CD severity do NOT facilitate options and playability, but instead dictate that the golfer play to only ONE possible position to have any chance of birdie or par.  

The front nine at Crystal is wonderful, but I have a number of questions about the back.  Thinking about it strictly from a routing standpoint, one wonders if the trek to the really cool land found on 13 & 14 is worth the trip, because the course does not necessarily finish gracefully.  After making the turn, one finds the cool 15th with it's great landing area for the drive and demanding pitch, but it's followed by the slog of the 16th, the VERY controversial 17th over severe land, and a good, if uninspiring finisher.  It also includes a long uphill walk from 11 to 12, which is a good hole, but which seems more like a "transition" hole than anything.

By contrast, TKC is more forgiving, yet keeps a similar demand on the golfer to think about position from the tee, offering probably more choices and options overall.  The greens, while not having quite the degree of internal intracacies of Mac/Maxwell contours, have broad, sweeping slopes that tend to carry away the slightly misdirected shot, yet offer the opportunity to use those same slopes to work the ball closer to the hole.

The "look" of the two courses is similar, and even share the "open linksland" on the front, and "wooded back nine" contrast.  If anything, more of TKC is on land with sharper, more intensive elevation changes, yet there is nowhere that seems in the least awkward or as questionable as, say the 17th at CD.

Both courses feature holes that are unique to the world of golf.  The 5-6-7-8 stretch at CD is nearly unbeatable for originality and interest but one doesn't have to look far at TKC to find holes of similar imagination and use of the natural landforms.  The 2nd and 3rd holes are amazing, and the 13th is one of the best short par fours I've ever seen, with a humungous, hanging green that offers a smorgasborgic variety of approach shots depending on hole location.  Talk about a "thinking man's" hole!!  

Yet, of all the holes that standout at both courses, I can honestly say I've never seen anything like the 15th at TKC.  It's a long, uphill par four, usually the recipe for "SLOGDOM".  Instead, the hole turns slightly left while the slope of the hole is sort of a reverse camber.  The approach is to an elevated, sliver of a green that is unusually severe in slope from back to front.  Somewhat like "Foxy" at Dornoch, except for the fact that the green, instead of being wide and shallow, is narrow and deeper.  With the HUGE green on a short par four at the 13th, the skinny, tabletop green on 15 is clear indication that all of the "rules" of architecture mean little to the architect.  

The bunkers at both courses give renewed meaning to the antiquated idea that they should play as "hazards", and are beautifully crafted and naturally integrated into their surrounds in a wonderful way.  One cannot look at them, or play from them, without wondering why there are so many boring, flaccid, incongruous bunkers being built today, and how meaningless so many of them really are to strategic play.

I could go on, but won't in the interest of space and time.  Instead, I'll throw this out there for consideration.  Our foursome of fairly well-traveled golfers did a "Ran match-play" of hole by hole comparison of CD & TKC on the ride to the airport.  It says a tremendous amount about the quality of both courses to tell you that they came out "halved".

Yes, Crystal Downs is a wonderful, creative, original if sometimes infuriating and frustrating test of golf at "short" yardage, but TKC offers much of the same type of challenge while also offering encouragement and a greater degree of forgiveness, playability, and FUN to the average golfer.

Anyone who bemoans the state of modern architecture should be encouraged to hear that places like TKC are being built.  

And, anyone who plays TKC and rates it "down" on factors such as "resistance to scoring" needs to seriously consider what golf is all about, in my opinion.  



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2003, 11:07:50 PM »
Fascinating and well reasoned report, Mike.  I look forward to hearing from others who have played the two courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2003, 03:45:24 AM »
Mike, hard not to agree with most of your report, although your match play talk must have occurred on Sunday :) One thought to add about CD is that it plays longer than its yardage because many of the fairways have interesting contours that require significant carries from the back tees. Examples, #'s 4,6,8, 12, and 15. Number 8 is one of the worlds finest par 5's and #5 is one of the quirkest and coolest par 4's in the world.

Kinsley Club is just plain fun, I joins a handful of the best modern courses that I have played. Your comments are spot on. After Sand Hills and Friar's Head (and from all I have heard from those that I trust Pac Dunes) don't think Kinsley should be anything other but in the group that falls next, if you ask me KC or Spyglass, answer.... KC... and where does Spyglass fall in the modern world?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2003, 05:39:33 AM »
Mike

Where do you get the energy to get home and type that insightful post on little rest and just having arrived home? I thought you had ohter plans  ;D

First, I too must say that the Kingsley Club is one of the great modern courses!  To ignore its unique features, great variety and bold use of the land as it existed takes a lobotomized player with blinders on. In addition to Mike's description, holes like the short 13th are downright unforgettable. Mike Devries, our kind host, described how the greensite was originally to be in another location but upon clearing the land, it was impossible to ignore the feature in the land at the current site.  I've never really played a green with putts over such elevation changes as the 9th at Yale (biarritz) but this green has them and its MUCH more complex to figure out its breaks and how hard to hit the putt. The bold 15th at Kingsley is the longest playing par 4, it has no bunkers, yet it had the smallest green on the course (3800 sq ft I believe). The front plays like a table top with slopes running down each side.  Great stuff.

Crystal Downs is one hell of a great match play course.  I'd have to quit the game if I was forced to post a score for every hole all the time.  To contrast Mike, I liked the 18th as a finisher. The drive really tempts you to play further right then you should as its the direct way to the green.  Unless you are really long, cutting the corner only lands you in the rough with a poor angle but shorter shot.  The false front and typical severe green means that no two putt halve to win a match is secure until the nerves are calm and the putt is holed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2003, 06:00:28 AM »
Well writen Mike.  Should add fuel for arranging a future gathering in central Mich (almost came off this year).  JC

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2003, 06:24:16 AM »
Geoffrey;

The trip was energizing, what can I say??  Fear not, as I posted after coming home last night from my other "plans".  ;)

Back to Kingsley for a moment.  Geoff, perhaps you might share your comments about the par threes.  I liked what you said in the car.

Brad;

Yes, guess you were already back home when we did our match-play scenario.  Hmmm...my memory must be fading, because I thought you were there.  Still, I'd be interested to hear your own match-play between the two.  

Jonathan/Rich;

Thanks for the nice comments...glad you enjoyed! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2003, 06:32:13 AM »
Mike,

I feel that I know what your other plans were.  8)  Don't know why.   ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NAF

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2003, 06:36:43 AM »
I believe our consensus match play (mike, myself and geoff) went:

1. All Square
2. KC 1up
3. KC 2up
4. KC 2up
5. KC 1 up
6. A/S
7. CD 1 up
8. CD 2 up
9. CD 2 up
10. CD 3 up
11. CD 3 up
12. CD 2 up
13. CD 2 up
14. CD 3 up
15. CD 2 up
16. CD 1 up
17. A/S
18. A/S

This was done when 2 of the 3 of us agreed on a hole.  For example Geoff and I thought 18 at CD was as good as KC's 18th and Mike did not therefore it was A/S..

And where is Matt Ward?  Matt, I can say it now, the KC is more fun than CD and perhaps its close equal in design.  Let's just hope Mike DV has more neo classics to build!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2003, 06:38:55 AM »
Matt is enjoying all sorts of golf in the SW right now.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2003, 06:44:01 AM »
Noel;

Your matchplay memory was close, but the 10th was halved and I know we decided to "split" 17 and 18, depending on one's preference and opinion of whether 17 at CD is actually a good hole.  

So, we just decided to give one to CD & the other to TKC without really deciding which.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2003, 06:45:18 AM »
Mike-

Thanks for reminding me about the 3 pars at Kingsley.  As a group and individually, I can think of no other holes that resemble them.  

The 5th at about 215 yards plays into a bowl protected by a hill on the right and framed by a ridge on the left.  You can play directly at the green but a wise choice would be to bank it off the left allowing a ball to collect into the punchbowl.  

The 9th can be played from two different directions. From the right tee you play across a valley to a tabletop green protected by a deep bunker on the front left and the green has a backstop hillside directly behind but curves sharply to the left.  From the left tee, the hole plays as a reverse redan where the hillside can be used to bank the ball onto the green.  However, the tee shot needs proper distance control or banking the ball off the hill results in the green kicking the ball off the green and behind the bunker leaving a frightening lob to right rear pin locations (a front pin from the other tee). How cool is that?

On the back nine, the 16th plays like a redan with bold fall offs to the left to catch shots struck less then solidly. Its not a direct copy however and it has unique features dictated by the landform. The 11th is perhaps the most straightforward 3 par at Kingsley.  It could remind you of other holes but it has a challenging greensite with falloffs especially to the right side that require great thought with your short game.

You will not soon forget the par 3's at teh Kingley Club nor will you mistake them for any other course you have played.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2003, 06:49:48 AM »

Quote
You will not soon forget the par 3's at teh Kingley Club nor will you mistake them for any other course you have played.

Geoffrey;

You forgot the best of the lot...the second hole!  ;) ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2003, 07:18:05 AM »
My stupid! It must be exhaustion and hectic work schedule.

The second could be one of the best short par 3's built in the modern era. At only about 150 yards it requires a precise shot. Playing at anything but the center of the green invites huge trouble.  The front left of the green directs anything but a well played shot towards a deep left greenside bunker.  The front of the green is also very narrow.  It widens in the back and directs balls towards the right rear of the green.  That's the only pin location that a sane palyer would attack.  There are dramatic falloffs especially on the left side of the green.

I believe this hole works so well because the greensite is situated on a landform that can take the ball anywhere. After you see the greensite for the first time you realize this and subsequent plays are harder.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2003, 09:49:52 AM »
This rota in northwestern Michigan may have become one of the best golf trips in the country if you can get access to the KC and CD.  Add in a round at Arcadia Bluffs and HP, and one will have a deep well of conversation and comparisons for many a 19th hole to come...  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2003, 04:23:15 PM »

Quote
This rota in northwestern Michigan may have become one of the best golf trips in the country if you can get access to the KC and CD.  Add in a round at Arcadia Bluffs and HP, and one will have a deep well of conversation and comparisons for many a 19th hole to come...  

How easy is it to get access to Kingsley and Crystal Downs, I wonder? (Northern Michigan is a long way from Western Scotland, but that's certainly a trip I'd like to make someday...)

Cheers,
Darren
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Nick_Christopher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2003, 05:13:16 PM »
I grew up caddying at the Downs and am now a member at Kingsley.  I agree with most of what has been said.  Most importantly, I think CD would be greatly improved if the greens were slowed down to fit with the extreme nature of the green complexes.  I wonder how closely the greens could be mowed in the 30's when the course was young.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2003, 05:56:49 PM »
I never rate a course I haven't seen and I have yet to see KC, but to have KC even with Crystal Downs is pretty impressive.  Are you sure you guys weren't sucked into that "first time seeing the course" impression that Golf Digest is always accused of  ;)

You may indeed be right, but Crystal Downs for me pretty much as good a golf gets in this country give or take a few.  It's a 9 or 10 on the Doak scale.  Is that how good KC is?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2003, 07:21:21 PM »
Mark

I would not give CD a 10. Its not "nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing....." It has at least one hole (16) that while not necessarily poor is not too good or worthy of the rest.  Mike's summary is excellent.

KC is with a handful of other modern courses that I've seen an inspiration and a reminder that the old dead guys were not the only ones who could build great golf courses. The wow factor that causes some courses to be over rated initially and then fall with repeated play is IMHO not going to apply to KC. I could be very happy to have that as the only course I was allowed to play.

Go to see it.  It is certainly way too low on the GW Modern 100 list and not to make the GD top 100 is a crime.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2003, 08:03:52 PM »
Geoffrey,
Like I said you may be right about KC.  But putting it even with CD is pretty impressive.  I believe Golf Magazine puts CD in the top 20 or 25 courses in the World!  That's "as good as golf gets" company in my book.  Is KC one of the 25 best courses in the world?  Is it in the top 100 in the world?  I'll let you know when I go play it  ;)

By the way, curious about your comments on Laurel Links?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2003, 08:38:50 PM »
Mark;

We threw around Doak scale numbers in conversation and numbers like 8 and 9 were voiced.  

Given that I'd slightly disagree with Tom Doak's giving CD a solid '10', then YES, we're talking something that shouldn't be missed at Kingsley.  

For instance, I don't want to put words in Geoffrey's mouth, and I was hoping he'd repeat it here, but he made the comment that the set of par threes at TKC is most original and most varied he's seen.




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2003, 10:58:37 PM »
Brad,
 Why is #8 CD one of the finest par 5's in the world?

Mike and Geoff,
  What did you think of #7 at CD? The green is really cool, but do you see any reason to drive down into the lower fairway?

There are a few "weaker" holes at CD, but the greens are still excellent even on holes like #10 or 16.

For me going into CD last year, I expected a 10, but it didn't quite meet my expectations. KC on the other hand, I expected a pretty darn good course based on the reviews here and it exceeded my expectations.

I feel the front nine at KC is rock solid and can hold its own against most anything. #10 is a hole that is really shocking after the preceding 9 holes. The green is still excellent, but the hole needs something to get you thinking off the tee. Although Mike D assures me #10 has the narrowest fairway on the course. #13 as I have stated many times is a hole I could spend a day on with a shag bag hitting approaches. #14 doesn't ask much of the second shot for a medium length driver like me. The green is great.

I can't wait for Aug. when I get to see both courses again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2003, 02:08:43 AM »
Mike Cirba said;

"For a course that one would want to play every day of the two, Crystal Downs is simply too demanding and punitive around the greens to come out on top.  It beats the crap out of the golfer, not through distance requirements on most holes, but because of the fact that depending on hole location, there is often only ONE place to place your approach to have any chance of getting down in two."

MikeC:

It's too bad you hit Crystal Downs when it was like that and I wouldn't hold it against the place or its architecture. You probably played there when it was "spring fast" before the greens started to grow. I was talking to a friend of mine who lives there in the summer and he said the greens aren't generally like that although occasionally they do get them too quick for the architecture.

Thanks for this thread though. I've been to CD  a number of times over the years but never KC. Your thread here has inspired me and I'm going out there to play both soon.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2003, 02:27:38 AM »
Ed, #8 at CD is world class for many reasons: each shot is as stunning to look at and truely rewards a well played and placed shot. The land movement is much like #8 at Prairie Dunes. Tee ball down the right side seems best with a big hitter given a chance for lots of extra yards given the land movement. The second shot requires an exacting play again, but this time up the right side with a draw, leaving a short pitch to a wonderful green complex carved naturally into the hill side. The green itself is small with plenty of interest. Miss any shot and the next one or two become significantly more difficult. For those that haven't seen it just look at the pictures in Doak's book about Dr. Mac. Would like to see the big boys go at this in two.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2003, 05:45:24 AM »
CD probably fell a bit below our expectations as already mentioned. I think we were all uniformly disappointed with #17 as a golf hole yet absolutely loved the equally quirky #5.

Ed-  I could see no real reason to drive to the lower fairway on #7.  It is but a sand wedge from there but it is blind and uphill. I think both Brad and Mike had less then satisfactory experiences from that spot first time through. From the upper fairway you look right at the green from about 130-145 (center) and you should be able to dial in a shot to any pin location.  That green really is amazing and I'm somewhat surprised that features like the boomerang aren't copied more often. Sand Hills and Harbor town (somewhat on #9) are the only ones I can recall.

TEP- I really don't have a feel for how fast the greens were at CD last weekend.  The trees were not yet sprouting leaves.  I suspect they could get them faster then we played.  Still, greens like #11 were kind of goofy the way we saw them.  Don't get me wrong, I think they are amazing greens that give great character and require thoughtful play.  CD really does need the proper maintenance meld to go with the great architecture.

At KC, I think part of the appeal to the design is the land itself and the great use of it that Mike Devries put it to. The property has dropoffs and bowls.  NGLA fans will love the drive on #4.  Its blind out to a fairway with a sliver of level area in the center right that allow a good look at the huge raised green.  On the left and the right, the fairway falls off into bowls that leave blind approaches. Its so reminiscent of the fairway and drive at #16 at National. Other fairways have similar character requiring thought and placement of the drives.

TEP- get out to Yale before you visit Michigan again!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: My lord, it's good!
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2003, 06:21:58 AM »
I love this thread!  Partly (mostly?) because I am completely ignorant of the facts!  Let me tell you (whether or not you really want to know...) what I am "hearing."

1.  The Kingsley Club is a great golf course
2.  Crystal Downs is great too
3.  From his first post, Mike Cirba (and others) would, in effect rate them equally.  From other posts, this implies a 8-9 on the "Doak" scale.
3.  This implied "rating" means that
   a.  KC is one of the best courses built in recent years, probably as good as Pacific Dunes and a small number of others
   b.  CD is probably overrated, at least by Tom Doak and some magazines
4.  CD is overrated because (primus inter pares) at current agronomic "ideals" its greens are not flexible enough to allow for more than one sort of approach shot to any particular pin position.  I would call this "the paradox of how 'fast and firm' is the paradigm of 'target golf.'"

I have more thoughts, but I'll let Tom Paul and others catch their breath first.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »