[Tom Huckaby]

That's a good call, oh masterful one.

This changes not my opinions of the course overall, but that would be a nice improvement.  I wonder why they do not do that?  Maybe maintenance issues?  Maybe too tough/time consuming/expensive to mow the sides closely?  Maybe given no stacked sod the walls would fall in sans higher grass?  These are all just guesses but I bet the answer lies not in desire for how they should be but rather maintenance realities....

[Mike Benham]

I have heard that the issue is maintenance related but there are other aspects of their maintenance that are not standard, such as the fringe areas which are mowed to near putting green levels, do they use walk behind mowers like on the greens?

And if the Scots can maintain bunkers in that manner in what must be an efficient process, why not in the US?

[Tom Huckaby]

I have heard that the issue is maintenance related but there are other aspects of their maintenance that are not standard, such as the fringe areas which are mowed to near putting green levels, do they use walk behind mowers like on the greens?

And if the Scots can maintain bunkers in that manner in what must be an efficient process, why not in the US?

In the UK and Ireland the bunkers are built to be like this in the first place - ie stacked sod, as in the picture.  Thus no maintenance issues.  The issues lie in the sides (walls) of the bunkers, not the edges (surrounds).  I'm sure they could cut the surrounds closer if they wanted... it's the sides/walls that I see as problematic.

And re mowing the approaches, isn't that just done by the same machine mowing the greens, just with the mowing height upped a bit?

I am WAY out of my depth here but this seems logical to me. 

One other thing - this is a very different course in so many ways as it is... perhaps making bunkers like the UK ones straight from the start would have pushed that difference over the edge of accepablity by US public course players?

Again all just guesses.  I agree that it would be fantastic if the bunkers were like that. 

[David Kelly]

I have heard that the issue is maintenance related but there are other aspects of their maintenance that are not standard, such as the fringe areas which are mowed to near putting green levels, do they use walk behind mowers like on the greens?

They don't use walk behind mowers on the greens or aprons at Rustic Canyon.

I agree with you about the bunker maintenance.  The grass is so high around them that it is very hard to roll one into the bunker you showed on #10 and the bathtub bunker on the right side of #2.  At least the entrances to the bunkers should be mown.

[Sean_A]

No one has mentioned it yet, but I am not in favor of the longish grasses around the fairway, cross or green side bunkers.

Instead of this:







I think this look would fit much better into the character of the wide-open green surrounds:

Cha ching!  I have been asking questions like this for years about American courses and I have never gotten a straight answer.  The "extra" grass at Rustic really puts me off what otherwise looks to be a fascinating course - one right up my alley. 

Ciao

[Mike Benham]

They don't use walk behind mowers on the greens or aprons at Rustic Canyon.

Bingo, as some would say ...

For Mr. H, a riding mower covers more area then a walk behind mower in the same period of time and will keep the cost (primarily labor) of maintenance lower ...

[Dean Stokes]

No one has mentioned it yet, but I am not in favor of the longish grasses around the fairway, cross or green side bunkers.

Instead of this:







I think this look would fit much better into the character of the wide-open green surrounds:

Cha ching!  I have been asking questions like this for years about American courses and I have never gotten a straight answer.  The "extra" grass at Rustic really puts me off what otherwise looks to be a fascinating course - one right up my alley. 

Ciao

Ditto Ditto Ditto. The ball is supposed to be able to get into the hazard; that is why the hazard is there. Why on earth grow the grass long to defeat that purpose, in this case, of the bunker.

[Brent Carlson]

Is Rustic that good?  I say yes.  In my book it is right up there with the best publics in Cali.  How a course has such great turf around the greens makes the course.  What other public in Cali requires so much strategy on every shot?

[DMoriarty]

Matt, do you feel the same way about courses with very large, undulating greens where one might face many long putts to just try and get it close?  Would such courses be improved with smaller greens so you could chip more?   
___________

This discussion about the aprons has focused on playing off them, but I think this understates their purpose.   In my view they are at least as important on the approach.   Many of the holes at Rustic were designed so that the golfer can approach the hole from a wide arc of angles using a wide variety of shots.   Without the extended aprons (or at least without very short grass and firm ground around the greens) this feature would disappear. 

Also, it may sound odd, but in my experience the aprons are an integral component of risk-reward, often on the risk side. The aprons can turn a slight miss into a real problem by allowing the ball to run well away from the green before settling somewhere more sinister.   Balls barely rolling over the 12th or 16th don't stop in the rough next to the green, they run all the way to the bottom, well away from the green and into the rough.  Get a little cute with the left edge of the 5th green and the apron will gladly escort your ball well away from and well below the green, or if you get lucky like Huckaby the apron may even help you get all the way back to the bunker behind and left of the green, from where putting is not an option.  Bail out or miss left on the 4th and the apron lets your ball scoot all the way into the bunker that doesn't even seem like it should be that much in play.  Haven't figured out that it is uphill to the 9th green?  Don't worry , the apron will give you a chance to try your shot again.  Remember the bunker left of the 17th green?   Well there is one.  Really.  Way way left of the 17th green.  Not many could accomplish this, but on Sunday I managed to double-cross myself something awful and the apron graciously rewarded me with a trip all the way to the bottom of that bunker.   

The aprons are a bit like the Army, they provide you with plenty of adventure by transporting you to places you might never have imagined even existed.

[Tom Huckaby]

David - I'd say that was perfectly stated re the aprons.... though I'm not sure it was good fortune for my ball to get into that back bunker on 5!  Man that was one HARD shot.

In any case though,it's a great point that the aprons can turn a small miss into a large one very quick... and that must always be kept in mind.

TH

[David Stamm]

I don't think that using 1/9 of the compass really qualifies as variety in orientation. "Wow, just a few holes ago the wind was into me and left to right. Now it's left to right and into me. What variety!"

Matt,

Don't you tutor Maths?  40 degrees is only 1/9th of the compass when you can say a hole is orientated 320 degrees differently to another one.  Which of course you cant.

I'm sure Kelly and Moriarty can comment on the nature of the wind at Rustic and it's tendency to change thorughout the course of the day.

[Tom Huckaby]

They don't use walk behind mowers on the greens or aprons at Rustic Canyon.

Bingo, as some would say ...

For Mr. H, a riding mower covers more area then a walk behind mower in the same period of time and will keep the cost (primarily labor) of maintenance lower ...

Work with me here guys - I don't see why this does anything but reinforce what I said above.

So they use a riding mower on all the greens and and aprons - that is what I assumed, and said - they just adjust the height a little up for the aprons.

And of course I know this is the cheaper way to do it.

So what's the point?

The question was "since they get the greens and aprons like Scotland, why can't they get the bunkers that way?"

Do you all believe that they'd need walk-behind (or other more time-consuming) mowing practices it they were to cut the grass closer all the way up to the bunker edges?  And that since they don't do that EVER that's why the edges are as they are?

Well that is pretty much what I queried also....

But also.... it's not so much the fairways going up to the edges that are the problem, but rather the very high grass on the sides of the walls.  My contention was that THAT would so obviously require complete bunker re-do (making the sides stacked sod), or very expensive hand maintenance to keep short (frequent hand mowing)- that THAT is why the bunkers are as they are.

In the end I think we can all agree it would be a hell of an improvement if the bunkers could be made like the UK ones pictured.

But it also seems obvious to me why they can't be kept that way now... the question is more why weren't they created that way from the start... and I gave a theory on that also.

TH

[David Kelly]

the question is more why weren't they created that way from the start.

They weren't created that way.  They certainly didn't look like those bunkers in the Royal Troon picture but they were open in their entrances.  They just gradually were left to grow.

[Tom Huckaby]

the question is more why weren't they created that way from the start.

They weren't created that way.  They certainly didn't look like those bunkers in the Royal Troon picture but they were open in their entrances.  They just gradually were left to grow.

What I meant was why they weren't created with stacked sod walls or the like, so that the high grass on the "walls" would not be an issue... and my theory is that's taking it too far for the intent of the course.

But it is odd that the grass is allowed to be so high around the outside edges... any thoughts as to why that is, David?

TH

[Joe Perches]

But it is odd that the grass is allowed to be so high around the outside edges... any thoughts as to why that is, David?

My guess is visual framing and customer complaints from being in too many bunkers.

For instance, the original bathtub bunker on 2 probably riled up more than a couple of people that couldn't see it.   The longer darker grass frames the bunkers visually and reduces both the surprise factor and the possibility of actually being in the thing.

Maybe the longer grass also reduces the bunker maintenance raking chores.  Fewer visitors, less raking.

I personally preferred the bunkers without the Van Dykes.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks, Joe. That makes great sense to me... and I am not the sharpest tool in the shed about this stuff.

You know, there remain no Van Dykes at Weddington Golf and Tennis. 

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Where indeed?  Now that is a dude I truly do miss.

I do think, however, that if he - or YOU - played this course with us as it was last Sunday... each of you might sing the tunes I am now.

One can learn.  One can also see courses in different ways over time.

TH

[DMoriarty]

I don't think that using 1/9 of the compass really qualifies as variety in orientation. "Wow, just a few holes ago the wind was into me and left to right. Now it's left to right and into me. What variety!"

Matt,

Don't you tutor Maths?  40 degrees is only 1/9th of the compass when you can say a hole is orientated 320 degrees differently to another one.  Which of course you cant.

I'm sure Kelly and Moriarty can comment on the nature of the wind at Rustic and it's tendency to change thorughout the course of the day.

As D Kelly noted above the wind does shift and did shift during our round on Sunday, but my descriptions are more colorful.  Someone in our group entered the outhouse behind the back 14th tee in a hot Santa Ana wind.  By the time they emerged it was to a cool ocean breeze from the opposite direction.  On the same tee we watched J. Spaulding almost drive the green, but by the time we teed off the wind was blowing in our faces. My weak attempt well right of the tree didn't even carry the wash!  And to think Jon and I usually drive it the EXACT same distance!   

Perhaps more pertinent to the comments above, the wind tends to bounce around in the canyon (especially in the front nine) so it is not at all uncommon to have different winds on consecutive holes;  at your back on the 1st tee, your face on the 2nd, and at your side on the 3rd tee, for example, even though the holes all play the same direction.  So with due respect to Matt's opinion on the hole configurations, it may be a bit to over-simple to assume that just because holes play generally the same direction, they necessarily play with the same wind considerations.   

But speaking of wind, one thing I found unfortunate about Sunday's event was that we had a very similar wind at the last RC King's Putter; a hot Santa Ana day even though we should have been about past the time of year where such days are more common.    While I generally enjoy playing in such a wind, I certainly understand why many found the going to be so difficult and somewhat exhausting.  While the conditions highlighted many of the Rustic's great features, they also made the going pretty rough, especially for those not used to walking in such conditions.  It may be hard to believe, the wind is not always ripping down-canyon at Rustic.   The Santa Ana's (which do occasionally get much stronger than what we had on Sunday) are generally a late Fall through early Spring phenomenon, and not every day.   The course is also a treat with the wind off the ocean, and the ocean wind is usually milder.  As those who played emergency nines found out, the course is a lot of fun in calm and cool conditions as well.   Unlike many modern courses, Rustic works in just about any condition, from calm to winds quite a bit harder than we experienced on Sunday. 

Also speaking of wind, my thanks as well to Jeff Hicks and his crew not only for the conditions and set up, but also for taking the time to change a number of the planned pins to make them more reasonable and interesting in those conditions. 

________________________________________

Good and interesting comments about the grass around the bunkers.  At this point I am not sure if it is part of the design intent or if it is something that has developed over time since then.  There was always tall grass behind many of the bunkers, but not so sure about the fronts.  Joe may be right about the visibility issue, but one wouldn't need to have tall grass in the entry side of the bunkers to make this happen.   Maybe they were ere they going after a certain golden era California look here, I don't know.

Anyway, I don't mind some of the tall grass (especially on the back of bunkers, where the bunkers are in the rough anyway, and where the tall grass blends into adjoining native) but I agree that it would be nice if the ball could more easily roll into some of the bunkers located on or adjoining the fairways and aprons.   Another negative about bunker grass is that it seems to shrink the bunkers over time, thus making it necessary for the maintenance crew to occasionally cut out the bunker back to its intended size and shape.   Before they re-cut the "bathtub bunker" on the 2nd fairway some of us had taken to calling it the "sink bunker." 

All that being said, I would be remiss if I did not mention that some of the bunkers are maintained to welcome a rolling ball.  Two such bunkers are the bunker left of the 4th green and the cut bunker on the right side of the 2nd fairway (also in play by the 5th green) and these are two of my favorite bunkers.   TH, I think your ball rolled into the latter bunker off the tee on the 2nd hole.   These are more the exception than the rule.

One note on the construction:  While I doubt these would be considered "sod bunkers," at least some of them were built with a shelf along their edges, and somewhere between four to 8 inches (approximately) of sod was stacked along these shelves to create the bunker edges.  Not sure whether that impacts the conversation, but I thought I'd clarify.     

[Tom Huckaby]

That clarifies things a lot for me Dave - thanks.

And yes, right side of #2... that's a perfect example of a more collecting type bunker..much to my chagrin.

BTW I have played it three times in a lot of wind (but always either shifting or different directions), one time with no wind.  And just based on that, I believe I can wholly support this:

Unlike many modern courses, Rustic works in just about any condition, from calm to winds quite a bit harder than we experienced on Sunday. 

Questions for you, though (or David K or anyone else who plays it a lot):  which way do you think it plays BEST?  Or is there any one way you can point to? 

Also is there a "prevailing" wind?  Such would have been necessarily asked about at least for course rating (ie USGA CR/slope) purposes... a question came up about that too.  I was thinking it would be tough to point to any "prevailing" wind... thus course rating would be very tough to do.... or I should say to rely on too heavily as perfectly accurate.

TH

[Pete Lavallee]

This picture was taken by Ran in 2002. I distinctly remeber him commenting "what's wrong with this picture?"; the answer obviously is that the long grass kept this golfer from rolling into the central bunker on 13.



I also mentioned this to Geoff at KP III and he said he would bring it up with Gil, as he was coming in for a few modifications the next week. Since nothing has changed, it would therefore seem a conscious decision by both designers and management.

[Anthony Gray]

  Of the courses I have played in the states this is the one that plays the most scotish. That even takes into account Bandon.

  1- the green complexes set up for the low approach

  2- you can putt from 100 yards out. I saw it. I saw a 2 putt from 50 YARDS!

  3- the wind was inconsistant. up and down and changed directions.

  4- tight lies on the fairways.

  5- cactus (gorse) to back up to accidentaly.


  Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

There are some great wildlife species at both Soule Park and Rustic Canyon such as roadrunners, many other birds, lizards, and one of these guys who was sunning himself half out of a hole by the cartpath up high right of #14 Rustic:



When he hissed at me, I backed off and he slithered into his hole.  This never would have happened if Rich Goodale hadn't hit his teeball about 100 yards farther than anticipated!   

[George Freeman]

I'm sure most of you know this, but for those of you who don't:  Geoff's book "Grounds for Golf" fills quite a few pages discussing the creation and stratedgy of Rustic Canyon, which he ties very nicely into the history and fundementals of golf course design (to steal the book's subtitle).  It was my first ever read on GCA and it really helped egnite my infant passion for the genre.  It has some fantastic illustrations as well by Gil Hanse.  Highly recommended!

- George

[Joe Perches]

This picture was taken by Ran in 2002. I distinctly remeber him commenting "what's wrong with this picture?"; the answer obviously is that the long grass kept this golfer from rolling into the central bunker on 13.



I also mentioned this to Geoff at KP III and he said he would bring it up with Gil, as he was coming in for a few modifications the next week. Since nothing has changed, it would therefore seem a conscious decision by both designers and management.

Here's a link:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/rustic-canyon-photos/13th-hole-sequence/

One of the pictures from Geoff's website is post grow-in May 2002.



There's no ball stopping "soul-patch" on the centerline bunker there.

I remember most of the bunkers having eyebrows, but not those ugly "soul-patches".

I think it's management and money savings.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
I'm sure the golfer in the photo was happy that the grass was long enough to stop his ball, but when you place that maintenance style side by side with the clean bunker 'look' from an earlier photo (from Mike Benham, I think) on this thread, well, there's no getting around the value of close mowing.

I've never been to RC, but the photo of #13 portrays a hole where the architects appeared to have stopped 'working' when they got it right, they didn't feel the need to jack it up out of it's valley setting. It's nice to see some restraint, there are already enough courses whose builders would have littered the left side of this hole with useless mounding, either in an attempt to add something visual or hide the cart path.

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