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TEPaul

Club Archives
« on: April 20, 2009, 08:22:55 AM »
I was thinking of putting a post about this subject on the Findlay Meets Wilson thread but I think it deserves its own thread.

Who and how many on this website have actually attempted to work on or with the archives of a club, including clubs that you may not belong to? And particularly on archives that are not well inventoried or catalogued----eg some we've seen have been a total unorganized mess.

For those who have tried it; how did you go about it? What were you looking for (if anything) and/or what did you find? Were you disappointed or pleasantly surprised?

In some of these clubs, my experiences have been it can be a bit like working on an archaeological dig----eg you never know what you might find but sometimes you might be completely blown away by what you run across. In that sense if you get lucky it can be like the beginning golfer hitting his perfect shot---he's amazed, it brings him back, and generally hooks him for good.

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Club Archives
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 09:48:21 AM »
Tom,

I have tried (am trying) and it is a very frustrating experience. I  am working on rebuilding the history of Puerta de Hierro's 2 golf courses (Colt, Simpson, Harris, Kyle Phillips). Going back all the way to 1912. I am searching for both architectural stuff and other interesting matters (photos, competitions - the club has held many -, etc.).

To give you an idea:
 - All pre-1936 material has been completely lost due to the Spanish Civil War
 - Most post-war material was thrown away in the 1980s, as the club archive was running out of space. They never thought that the material would be interesting.
 - The club does have a complete record of everything in the past 30 years, but it is not very organized.

I have had to revert to old magazines, newspapers, photographs from the Spanish Airforce, etc. to rebuild the evolution of the club. Very, very cumbersome (but fun).

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Club Archives
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 10:20:26 AM »
Hello Tom,

I have seen a few club archives in Germany and Austria. It all depends on who was is charge of organising the archive. If the club was lucky to have an historical interested member or official named responsible for the Archive than I found out it happens that club archives are better organized than you'd actually expect.

Other club archives that I saw where not that well organized but still contained interesting material, only that nobody in the club knew about it.....

One club archive contained a complete run of British Golf Illustrated from 1909-1914,
several pre 1914 golfer's handbooks, but nobody in the club knew how rare these items are or what exactly they are. In one clubhouse I found an original 1911 "Golf" by Arnaud Massy among other 1st edition classic pre-1939 golf books in the club's children playing room!

At my home club Wentorf-Reinbek (founded 1901) I was able to find German Golf Association newsletters from 1937 - 1944 missing in the Associations own archive! Now I have inherited that job and it's up to me to keep our club archive well in order!

When it comes to golfarchitecture related material things become more difficult - but clubs allways tend to have some of their plans in their archive, only sometime they just don't know where they are...Recently I found three original Colt notebooks dating from 1928 in one club archive, not bad isn't it?

In another club I quickly found the 1957 original plans drawn by J.S.F. Morrison as the archive was well organised.

Here in Germany we are fortunate enough to have a "Deutsches Golf Archiv" which is supported by the German Golf Association and contains the Associations Archives up to the 1980s or so.

Except for the Deutsches Golf Archiv I have never seen an inventory list in any club archive..

Is there anyone else out there with similar experiences? Would be interesting to hear about it....

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 10:51:35 AM by Christoph Meister »
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Club Archives
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 10:27:20 AM »
In Puerta de Hierro, there are  9 framed drawings (watercolors) of each of the holes Simpson designed. All of the drawings are Simpson's with explanations of how each hole is to be played and why it was designed the way it was. The drawings are in the TV room but due to lack of light there, they are not really seen (nor the club was aware that the drawings were there until I spotted them!!!!).

Christoph Meister

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Re: Club Archives
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 10:54:43 AM »
In Puerta de Hierro, there are  9 framed drawings (watercolors) of each of the holes Simpson designed. All of the drawings are Simpson's with explanations of how each hole is to be played and why it was designed the way it was. The drawings are in the TV room but due to lack of light there, they are not really seen (nor the club was aware that the drawings were there until I spotted them!!!!).

Alfonso,

TV-Room is also not bad....that almost sounds like my children playing room story.. I have heard other golf historians with similar stories...

C.
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Phil_the_Author

Re: Club Archives
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 01:44:32 PM »
Alfonso,

I'll email you copies of three articles I found. one is from 1918 the other two in 1926. Among the gems in them are photographs of the clubhouse, 9th green & 18th hole. The 18th is particularly fascinating as the mound that circles the entire green can be clearly seen.

The articles also reference people and events (e.g. - the annual Spain vs. France challenge match) that offer some creative ideas and directions for further research...

Alfonso Erhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Club Archives
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 05:37:13 PM »
Philip,

I have sent you a pm with my email address.

Regard,s

TEPaul

Re: Club Archives
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 11:53:56 PM »
Alphonso and Christoph:

Thanks for your posts (and you too Phil). It's interesting to me that both of you come from what we over here call "abroad."

I'm most interested in your posts---they're good stuff---and your experiences, but we can get to that later.

The real reason I posted this thread is to see after 12 or more hours whether there was anyone on here who had done any real work in club archives.

I think the lack of responses sort of makes the point I was trying to make with this thread subject.

Mike McGuire

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Re: Club Archives
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2009, 12:08:21 AM »
I have read every word or our clubs board minutes back to the first meeting in 1929.  This lead to some other publications and some video footage from the first club championship in 1930. Those short - fall back on the right foot swings are priceless.

In addition - with trips to the library and interviewing older members and even dug up some historical photos at our states DOT I have uncovering interesting facts about our course.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Club Archives
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2009, 05:27:36 AM »
Tom,

I've had the privilege to look through a number of club archives. In my case I was invited by most (about80%) to do so. These mostly were to answer questions that the club had about the early evolution of their golf course(s) and in a couple of cases to provide a complete evolution history.

The other 20% were cases where I approached the club. In each one it was to aid in a writing project that I was/am working on. I have yet to be turned down when asking for permission. I always state up front that nothing will be used or disseminated publicly unless they know and agree to it beforehand. That is their right and privilege.

One of the things that I always do is share anything I find that is "new" and to do so with genuine (in my case it is quite easy) excitement on their behalf. This always leads to a spark being ignited among some members to want to know more, and that is the key to being given real access.

At every club I've ever had involvement with there are those who greatly desire to know and record its history; they just honestly don't know how to go about researching it and, in some cases, properly interpreting it. It is this that presents the greatest threat to one's ability to delve into private areas. Yet again, I have found, a humble approach based on a sincere desire to learn and share almost always gains one access.

 

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Club Archives
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2009, 06:07:32 AM »
Tom, I have had access to a number of clubs' archives in the course of research for books. From the point of view of gaining information about the financial and administrational history these have usually been all-revealing. Not so about architecture, and in that respect Alwoodley's was most frustrating with almost nothing about the building of MacKenzie's earliest course. There is no answer to the questions of exactly what Colt or Fowler's input may or may not have been, or whether the 11th green was moved. A sketch map of about 1910 by MacKenzie shows the state of play of which bunkers had been constructed and those which were still planned. Whether these were built or not is not recorded. Today's bunkering is similar, but significantly altered in detail.

Stockport's archives were fuller and there was considerable praise for the work of Peter Barrie, the club's first professional, who constructed the course to Sandy Herd's initial design. There are no working plans. They had an excellent archive of photographs from all periods of the club's existence.

Hartlepool's archives were incomplete and it was impossible for me to deduce exactly the routing of the (many) various courses that have existed on the site. For the record, their centenary was in 2006 and the book I submitted was rejected by the new committee (not those who commissioned me). I have had several meetings with them since, but they cannot tell me how they want the book changed. It remains work in progress!

Ringway lost most of their material in a fire, but they have done plenty of research and my job is simply to turn ther research into a readable whole. Happily there are sufficient photos to illustrate the book.

Despite a devastating fire, Mere has enough material (most contained in a 50th anniversary book) to create a small 75th anniversary book. Braid's 1934/5 course is little altered - he made one change shortly before his death - apart from moving the 18th green to a waterside location in the 1980s (said to be at Faldo's suggestion).

Delamere Forest has an enormous archive of material, full records of everthing that has gone on. There are no Fowler plans, but there are in-house maps from which the routings of the various courses can be accurately recreated. One of their members, Bill Briggs, has done a magnificent job in extracting all the relevant material. Again my job is to turn it into a readable book.

Sandy Lodge has a wonderful archive of visual material, but it doesn't have complete minute books. One of their members, David Hall, is doing fantastic research in digging out material in local libraries, the period golfing press and so on. We've also been lucky to have interviewed several key figures before they died! Former professional, John Jacobs, is, happily, still with us and has given us a most informative interview.

One thing I have learned, however, is not to trust anybody's memory! Nor, for that matter, is everything truthfully recorded. On asking why one club professional, who seemed to be well liked and good at his job, left in a hurry, I was told that he left because the Hon Sec was having an affair with his wife! One powerful Hon Sec only recorded those things of which he approved! There is no mention, for instance, of £150,000 being spent on a new building for the green staff and their equipment as recetly as the late 1990s at one club. At another it is quite clear that someone put his hand in his pocket and made up the deficit for the year (the club would clearly have gone under) for most of the 1920s and 30s.

As most minutes until quite recently were written by hand you can have the most terrible time trying to decipher some of it, spellings are often inconsistent, and there are many frustrations of the kind:

Greens Committee: The Captain's suggestion was discussed and accepted.

But there is no mention of what the Captain's suggestion was!


Bill Brightly

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Re: Club Archives
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 07:33:09 AM »
Tom,

I may have posted this before, but I have read all our Board minutes back to 1899 and reviewed all the plans that I could get my hands on. (Hackensack Golf Club, Oradell, New Jersey.)

I had a theory (and George Bahto seemed to agree) that Seth Raynor routed our course before he died. But I found the old board minuted that showed we received Bank's "proposition" in July of 1926. Raynor died six months earlier. So I proved instead that HGC was Banks' first solo effort.

My next project was to find out what changes William Gordon made to our course in the early 1960's. Turns our we had barrels full of "plans" rolled up in plastic garbage cans in our basement. Our club president and I had all the barrels brought up to the board room and we went threw every one. We were mainly looking for Gordon's plans but also hoping to find some stuff from Banks.

Well, it seems our club saved every plot plan and schematic ever drawn, including multiple copies of plot plans every time we sold off a piece of land, kitchen schematics every time we replaced a piece of kitchen equipment, a plan to built townhouses along the long driveway leading to our clubhouse (thankfully, it was never done) etc, etc. We labeled and categorized everything we found, and after about 3 hours in the last of the barrels, we found an old sprinkler plan from 1958. It had a "carbon copy" look to it and was in reverse, a mirror image, and it showed the first single-line sprinkler system that we put in. It included all of the greens and bunkers that Banks built.

Upon closer scrutiny, we could see that someone had sketched another set of greens and bunkers on the plan. We assumed it was a proposed set of changes that never got built. (Remember, the drawing was dated 1958...) Even though I know the course very well, it is REALLY hard to read a plan in reverse and keep all the holes straight!

One of last drawings we found was a simple skecth of Gordon's changes from 1961. There we no notes and no mention of what was there before. Gordon worked with our club's Modernization Committee (1960-62), which I learned about from the board minutes.

A week later I was at a cocktail  party for new members but I slipped away to go look at the plans again for the fourth time. I had the Gordon plan and the sprinkler plan side by side on the board room table when it hit me: the proposed changes on the sprinkler plan were Gordon's! When I folded his plan over the sprinkler plan (which was in reverse) they fit perfectly together! Gordon obviously used the (then current) sprinkler drawing to sketch his proposed changes.

So we were able to see every change that Gordon made, at least from a one-dimensional perspective. He reduced the size of many greens, took out all rear bunkers and re-built all the bunkers. What I can't tell is if he reduced the height of the tiers on the greens but I suspect he did.

In any event, these documents were very important when we asked Rees Jones to prepare plans for a Banks restoration. We have completed 3 holes and are doing the work in house as funds become available.



« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 07:37:44 AM by Bill Brightly »

Christoph Meister

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Re: Club Archives
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 12:30:34 PM »

As most minutes until quite recently were written by hand you can have the most terrible time trying to decipher some of it, spellings are often inconsistent, and there are many frustrations of the kind:

Greens Committee: The Captain's suggestion was discussed and accepted.

But there is no mention of what the Captain's suggestion was!



Mark,
I like that one - it's also not uncommon in German Golf Club Archives!

C.
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

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