[Randy Thompson]

   I received a letter from my home club yesterday, stating that a large percentage of members are not complying with fixing ball marks, raking traps and fixing divots and effective immediately anyone found not complying with these basic rule of etiquette will be suspended for one week on the first offence and three weeks on the second and the third can lead to permanent expulsion if the golf committee so desires. In my opinion, it is common courtesy to rake your bunker, fix ball marks and replace divots and this action taken by the club is a little drastic. Maybe a system of fines would be more appropriate and eventually habitual offenders could or should be suspended. I would like to hear from other around the world what are your thoughts, on this subject matter and what are the current policies in your club.                                                                         

[Bob_Huntley]

   I received a letter from my home club yesterday, stating that a large percentage of members are not complying with fixing ball marks, raking traps and fixing divots and effective immediately anyone found not complying with these basic rule of etiquette will be suspended for one week on the first offence and three weeks on the second and the third can lead to permanent expulsion if the golf committee so desires. In my opinion, it is common courtesy to rake your bunker, fix ball marks and replace divots and this action taken by the club is a little drastic. Maybe a system of fines would be more appropriate and eventually habitual offenders could or should be suspended. I would like to hear from other around the world what are your thoughts, on this subject matter and what are the current policies in your club.                                                                         

Randy,

It would seem that your club is in no way imperilled by the the current economic conditions. Do you have a long waiting list of would be members?

Bob

[Niall C]

Bob,

I think in this day and age of money hard to come by, that golfers will be more willing to go to a well run golf club which doesn't let a few inconsiderate people spoil the course for everyone else.

I would be interested in hearing how "large a percentage of members" aren't complying with these basic rules. How many does it take to make a difference ?

Niall

[Mike Nuzzo]

A positive education program may be more useful.
It is doubtful such a high percentage would show willing neglect.

[C. Squier]

Suspend away.  Castle Pines has a suspension policy (at least had, it's been a few years since I've visited friends out there) for slow play.  First time over 4:15, a warning.  Second got you a letter and a week or two off.  Third was double secret probation.

Guess what, they didn't have a slow play problem. 

How can we complain about problems at other courses (or slow play by Tour pros) if we're not willing to step up to the plate and tell our own peers to change their own wrong behavior?  Though I do agree w/ Nuzzo, a good educational program before implementing new policy will be doubly effective.

[Bill_Yates]

I agree.  I say educate and enforce.

Call it "tough love" - for the respect of others and for the game.

[Jon Wiggett]

This thread really shows the sad state that golf is in in some areas. Where I grew up if you didn't repair a pitchmark or rake a bunker you were politely reminded by your playing partners that you had forgotten to do so and they would often help you then correct this error so as to be out of the way of the following group more quickly.

Now there is talk of banning people from one quater and if the club needs money then letting yob mentality rule as long as they pay.

Golf is a GENTLEMAN'S game. Players should be given the benifit of the doubt and helped in their forgetfullness.

Bob, the idea of 'to prostitiute yourself' because of the need of money has no place in the world of true golf. Golf is dependent on principles and I hope that most club's will follow Niall's attitude as the one you hint at is below the lowest (Bob, I am not saying that it is your personal one and no personal attack is intended) .

[Randy Thompson]

Just for the record, I played this week and found in no way were there excessive ballmarks, or divots not fixed or bunkers not raked. There were some greens that I was able to fix my ballmark and one other but not excessive by any means. The club in my opinion has an inexperienced golf commitee, for example, number two to the right they have marked out of bounds because it is a short par 5 of 476 yards and its too easy without having the out of bounds. This is the only hole that out of bounds comes into the game, the rest of the course you can be three fairways over and put the next one on the green. Also something I didn't like, I went with my son in law who was visiting and were going to share my clubs, which they forbid because it causes slow play. So we rented a set, went to the first tee and waited to tee off and two singles went off alone in front of us. Thank god they paired up after six holes.

[Brad Klein]

The policy outlined in the initial thread is pretty draconian because it seeks complete compliance. If you get 80% compliance you are doing great; the additional measures required to get an extra 10 percent compliance are so intense and police-state like that you'll antagonize everyone and set up a ridiculous culture at the club. As for 100 percent, forget it; not possible.

So I think a more realistic and more effective policy is to gear back a bit. Is that some concession in the face of arrogance or egoism that represents a cave in? Actually, it's the most reasonable way to get the most effective  desired behavior without creating backlash and all sorts of crazy political (and legal) fall out.

[Roger Wolfe]

In the end, the only recourse ANY club has against its members is restricting access... more commonly known as "suspension."  Fact.

[Steve Salmen]

Very sad to read.  First, there are many golfers that fix more pitch marks than they make.  Second, well trained caddies should look for and fix any indentations on the greens.

Obviously there major differences between public and private facilities: generally different course conditions, sense of ownership in the facility, and a  different standard of decorum.  But not necessarily a greater love for the game.  I'd like to see more public courses give away pitch mark repair tools.  People fix marks more often at courses that do this.

[C. Squier]

Very sad to read.  First, there are many golfers that fix more pitch marks than they make.  Second, well trained caddies should look for and fix any indentations on the greens.

Of course many do....and that's a great thing.  Except those people don't always follow the bad groups.  After a good rain its sad to see giant craters left in the ground and another to find a small dent that blends into the rest of the green.  We've all hit a green, searched for the ball mark to no avail.  It happens. 

One look at the first green will tell you how the membership treats their greens.  If a little negative reinforcement keeps the odd bad group of people on the straight and narrow, thats great.  Although I do agree the punishment advocated by the original poster's greens committee seems a wee touch harsh....4th offense and you spend a week in the stocks set up in the grill lounge. 

At some clubs a simple email from the superintendent to the membership will give the ball fixing a boost.  Some may take a little more effort.  There should be a way to tell a member that they need to exhibit a little more care without being a jerk, but still get the point across.  Same for those who can't seem to park a cart less than 10 feet from every green.  That's worse....others can clean up ball marks, but can't undo repeated cart damage.

[Mike McGuire]

Sounds like you have a deteriorating membership culture that is seeping into the committees / board.

Is it an option to join anther club?

[Dan Herrmann]

Do you have that many ballmarks?  Are your greens overwatered?

Once we cut back on water, our ballmark problem was significantly reduced.

Likewise, nice firm and fast fairways don't lead to beaver-pelt type divots.
----------------

As far as your club's BOD goes, think about the effect of similar negative reinforcement in the workplace.  A good leader rarely needs to lower him/herself to that level and reserves it for extraordinary circumstances.  Employees that work in fear are seldom productive.  Members who play in fear tend to leave.

[Bob_Huntley]

This thread really shows the sad state that golf is in in some areas. Where I grew up if you didn't repair a pitchmark or rake a bunker you were politely reminded by your playing partners that you had forgotten to do so and they would often help you then correct this error so as to be out of the way of the following group more quickly.

Now there is talk of banning people from one quater and if the club needs money then letting yob mentality rule as long as they pay.

Golf is a GENTLEMAN'S game. Players should be given the benifit of the doubt and helped in their forgetfullness.

Bob, the idea of 'to prostitiute yourself' because of the need of money has no place in the world of true golf. Golf is dependent on principles and I hope that most club's will follow Niall's attitude as the one you hint at is below the lowest (Bob, I am not saying that it is your personal one and no personal attack is intended) .

John,

I think you may have misunderstood my take on this.


It is all very well and good to have a program of suspension and banishment but not if it alienates the whole membership.

We have bottles of sand/seed mix which every player carries on his cart or trolley and it works well. Peer pressure is the answer, not Board ukases.

Bob

 

[Carl Johnson]

If a club is asking this question, it's (its leadership is) in serious trouble.  The idea that somehow the "gentlemen" approach is the answer is not realistic.  We throw the term around, yet we (editorial) tolerate board members and their wives who talk on their cell phones in the main dining room during lunch (contrary to club rules).  We're a "golf club," not a country club, yet we admit members who don't know the basics of player and course etiquette.  We admit as members people we think we'd like to have around, as members.  We like them personally and enjoy their company.  Why suspend them?  Aren't we hurting ourselves in the process?

So what do we do now?  I'm on the "education-is-the-answer" side.  The difficulty is in pulling it off.  Web videos on divot and ball mark repair?  Won't work for those who don't look at them.  I play often with a very good friend who thinks he knows how to repair ball marks, but he doesn't.  He uses his ball mark repair tool like a roto-tiller.  When I can, I try to get to his ball mark first and fix it for him -- not a good solution.  I wrestle with how I can educate him to do it right without offending him.  Any ideas?

What about mandatory education programs for new members?  No golf until they've had an on-course class or two with the greenkeeper on the fundamentals, for the club, of divot, bunker and ball mark repair.  What about required refresher courses every few years for existing members, conducted in a nonjudgmental manner?  Singling out members for suspensions or fines is much more difficult than simply "educating" everyone.  Sort of like renewing your driver's license every few years.  Player etiquette, speed of play, etc. issues could be covered in a similar manner by the club's professional.  Think about the golfers who pay the pro for lessons on their swings, and their putting and chipping?  How many have paid for lessons on ball mark repair, divot repair and bunker raking (personally, I'm of the toss-away-the-rake persuasion, but that's not realistic)?  How many pay for lessons on being a good golf partner, opponent or simply playing companion?  Maybe we need to simply give those lessons away, and require that the gifts be accepted.

[Randy Thompson]

The majority of the members are new to the golf world and I agree the best approach should be through educational classes. The greens are a little thatchy because there are of one the new bentgrass varieties and need more frequent topping but they are not over watered. Once agan, I found the overall number of ball marks NORMAL. I think if its a lack of knowledge, educational programs will be sucsessful, if its an attitude thing, then maybe suspension is the answer. Thirty years ago as a young superintendent we were raking bunkers by hand and just finished a bunker and moved on to another one along side the one just finished. A golfer hit in the just finished bunker, hit out and walked out without raking. I said very politley, Sir, you forgot to rake your bunker. He said you rake the mother F...er, that what we pay you for. It was a public course in Texas and he was asked to leave by the pro-manager and then the guy wanted to fight him the parking lot. Its sad but it happens

[Mark Chaplin]

A friend of mine was recently suspended from a very famous club for a couple of months for "excessive heckling" at a club dinner. Apparently he'd had a previous warning for bread throwing and heckling. The things people do the wrong side of a couple of bottles of claret!

[Roger Wolfe]

If a club is asking this question, it's (its leadership is) in serious trouble.  The idea that somehow the "gentlemen" approach is the answer is not realistic.  We throw the term around, yet we (editorial) tolerate board members and their wives who talk on their cell phones in the main dining room during lunch (contrary to club rules).  We're a "golf club," not a country club, yet we admit members who don't know the basics of player and course etiquette.  We admit as members people we think we'd like to have around, as members.  We like them personally and enjoy their company.  Why suspend them?  Aren't we hurting ourselves in the process?

So what do we do now?  I'm on the "education-is-the-answer" side.  The difficulty is in pulling it off.  Web videos on divot and ball mark repair?  Won't work for those who don't look at them.  I play often with a very good friend who thinks he knows how to repair ball marks, but he doesn't.  He uses his ball mark repair tool like a roto-tiller.  When I can, I try to get to his ball mark first and fix it for him -- not a good solution.  I wrestle with how I can educate him to do it right without offending him.  Any ideas?

What about mandatory education programs for new members?  No golf until they've had an on-course class or two with the greenkeeper on the fundamentals, for the club, of divot, bunker and ball mark repair.  What about required refresher courses every few years for existing members, conducted in a nonjudgmental manner?  Singling out members for suspensions or fines is much more difficult than simply "educating" everyone.  Sort of like renewing your driver's license every few years.  Player etiquette, speed of play, etc. issues could be covered in a similar manner by the club's professional.  Think about the golfers who pay the pro for lessons on their swings, and their putting and chipping?  How many have paid for lessons on ball mark repair, divot repair and bunker raking (personally, I'm of the toss-away-the-rake persuasion, but that's not realistic)?  How many pay for lessons on being a good golf partner, opponent or simply playing companion?  Maybe we need to simply give those lessons away, and require that the gifts be accepted.

Hi Carl,

I have had several members tell me in private that another person is incorrectly fixing ball marks or excessively filling divots with sand.  I send them an email with a link to the infamous golf course etiquette video posted on the web (www.carolinagolfclub.org.. Club Info.. Golf... Golf Course Etiquette Video).  The only thing in the email is, "We have received a report that you are improperly fixing ball marks.  Hopefully this video with help."  No threat of suspension is necessary.  99 times out of 100 they are simply uneducated and are happy to comply.  A good bit of the responsiblity to help educate members regarding etiquette lies with the members themselves.  I know everything I've learned was taught to me while playing.  You would be doing your friend a service to let them know they were repairing their ball marks incorrectly... before someone else less polite hammers him.

[Niall C]

Carl,

A few years ago when I was looking to join a new club I went along one Sunday afternoon to be interviewed by the Captain and Vice-Captain of the club. The interview was a fairly short one and they asked me a couple of simple questions on etiquette. Once that was finished they asked me to wait in the lounge as they were interviewing another dozen or so potential members. Once everyone had been interviewed they got everyone together and announced that there application to join the club had been successful and asked everyone follow them to the 18th green. Once there we were shown the right way (and the wrong way) to repair a pitch mark and the right way to rake a bunker and the proper place to leave the rake.

At no time was it suggested that we didn't know how to do this but the Captain/Vice-Captain politely informed us it was the policy of the club to show new members so that anyone new to the game would know what to do. I always thought this was a great way of making sure standards were maintained.

Niall

[Jim_Coleman]

    There's all kinds of common rule violations and issues of what to do about them.  How about the members who ignore cart traffic rules.  Stay on the paths when wet; stay on thefair ways to allow seed to grow; etc.  I would say, no matter what the rule, at least 20% of the membership ignores it.  Often times they simply forget, other times it's just arrogance.  What do you do?
   How about the member who constantly bothers the super (or even a consulting architect) with his ideas of how things should be done.  He truly believes he's right, and he believes, as a dues paying member, he's entitled to express his opinion.  But the super and/ or architect find him bothersome.  What do you do if he insists on continuing his behavior?

[mike_malone]

 Jim Coleman,

   We had a member much like you described. Our board did a very good job of handling the situation. Email me off line if you want to know the facts.

[Jason Connor]

I learned on a 9 hole public course owned by a retired Cleveland Browns lineman (from the 40s or 50s).

The was a old grouchy man that none of us wanted to mess with as kids.  Nor did my 40-year-old dad for that matter.

And I swear old Mr. Rokiski would hide behind trees in his golf cart just to get a chance to yell at the kids from whom he'd just collected $7 for not caring for the course.  I'd already been taught the right way, but the fear of him was enough for me to learn how to treat a course.

Even though he's long gone, I still fear him pulling that old cart out from behind a tree and dressing me down for not replacing a divot.

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