shouldn't 12 at AGNC be lengthened too, if possible?

[PThomas]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

[PCCraig]

Well the green is so small and narrow (and well designed) that it doesn't matter.

Also, the wind is super tough to read because the hole sits in a pocket there.

(I know that your first post had a sarcastic tone, but it is a good question to ask). 

[Mike Wagner]

I'm fairly certain if you asked Nicklaus to recall his top 5 most demanding shots, Sunday on the 12th tee at Augusta would be in there.

This hole isn't about the length, it's about precision and potentially your demise in the tournament. 

The premise of the players hitting it so much farther doesn't fly here.  The differential in distance has more to do with drivers than 8 irons.

[Jfaspen]

Given the size of the green, the harsh result for missing by just a tiny bit, the difficulty of judging the wind conditions, I think the hole is fine as is.  It would be a slaughter to push the tee back to 180-190.. Into the wind, players would be hitting 4-5 iron in, instead of 8 or 9.

You'd also have a similar length shot to 16.  The front par 3's are already similar (long and downhill), no reason to take the varience out of the back.

[Tim Nugent]

Isn't the biggest variable at #12 the wind?  It's a short shot, one that these guys can make 99/100 blindfolded.  So, why do you see them memtally debate their shots so often.  It's the wind and it's variability.  They have to put the ball high in the air Because of the short distance - which gives the wind more time to affect the ball.  Given the margin of error is sooo small, it causes them to THINK about it more.  And as PD said "once you get them thinking..."

[JESII]

What is the elevation change from tee to green on #12?

[Jason Topp]

What is the elevation change from tee to green on #12?

My eyes saw very little elevation change.  It is probably a bit downhill.

[Anthony Gray]

  I like the idea of the short par 3. This one is well defended. And once you get used to seeing it one way for years it just is not the same if they make it longer. Give us some more low scores, this is The Masters for God's sake not the US open.

  Anthony

[Jim Franklin]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

Are you serious?

[PThomas]

i do understand that distance differential is more pronounced with the driver, but surely as a group they are hitting the ball farther with irons too than they were 40 years ago...i'm not saying make it 190, but 170ish maybe...

if it is difficult for them these days, i guess it was even more so back then....so why not make the challenge as severe?

[PThomas]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

Are you serious?

absolutely!

[Jim Franklin]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

Are you serious?

absolutely!

Then you are officially nuts. I hate the changes there, but at least they have some variety with the par 3s. Instead you want to make them all 200+ yards I am assuming? Sounds like a great fun course you are designing. Good luck with it.

As #12 has shown in the past, it doesn't matter about length with the swirling winds.

[Kalen Braley]

Paul,

Its my understanding that when they use that back right pin, they can stretch it to 160.  With that type of small target, and necessity to hit the green to avoid bogey or worse, seems like a worthy hole to me.

The only thing I would change about 12 is to un-dam it and let it flow like a meandering creek again.  The players may even be willing to gamble more because they would know they could get a doable lie from the creek bottom as opposed to now where everyone not named Freddie is doomed to a ball in the water.

[PThomas]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

Are you serious?

absolutely!

Then you are officially nuts. I hate the changes there, but at least they have some variety with the par 3s. Instead you want to make them all 200+ yards I am assuming? Sounds like a great fun course you are designing. Good luck with it.

As #12 has shown in the past, it doesn't matter about length with the swirling winds.

my wife will probably agree with your characterization of me Jim

not 200 yds, 170ish....

and since those trees have grown in the last 40 years, wouldn't that have lessened the impact of the wind since the hole is more sheltered now?

[Philippe Binette]

It would be a mistake to lenghten the hole

It's a better hole if they keep it short because players try to control the ball so much that they make mistakes...

I mean you see players hit knock down cut 8-iron, chip fade 7 iron, and all sort of shot they wouldn't normally used from 145 yards.
Normally 145 yards is a full 9-iron or a full wedge for some and nobody seens to go at it with their normal full swing...
they don't make an aggressive swing and pull if left, block it right, ballooned in up in the air...

same thing happens at the 17th at Sawgrass


If you add lenght to the hole, players won't expect as much, won't try too hard, hit a full 8 or 7 iron and hope... they would have less options, the decision would be more simple, less doubt in their head = aggressive swings = better shots...

The hole plays in the players head more than anything

[Lloyd_Cole]

Could one also argue that on a hole where the wind is such a factor, one might prefer to hit a 5 or 6 iron to an 8 or 9? So maybe it the length (lack of it) actually adds difficulty. Obviously, with no wind shorter is easier, but that is not always the case at a links course, where wind is huge. Look at Tiger vs Els at Hoylake. Els was lost with a SW in his hand, Tiger did pretty well with his 5 irons.

[Mike Wagner]

Tim,

Are you kidding me?  This is not a shot anyone can hit "99/100 blindfolded."  Give the hole some credit.

[Joe Hancock]

And if we throw the rhythm and flow of a golf course to the wind, so to speak, why in the world should any of us make a big deal about initial routings when we critique (new?)courses? Apparently, it won't make any difference down the road.

Joe

[PThomas]

And if we throw the rhythm and flow of a golf course to the wind, so to speak, why in the world should any of us make a big deal about initial routings when we critique (new?)courses? Apparently, it won't make any difference down the road.

Joe

so are you against ALL changes to every course Joe?

[Joe Hancock]

And if we throw the rhythm and flow of a golf course to the wind, so to speak, why in the world should any of us make a big deal about initial routings when we critique (new?)courses? Apparently, it won't make any difference down the road.

Joe

so are you against ALL changes to every course Joe?

No. But I also don't think there is enough attention being paid to what makes a course great other than the challenge of distance. Making every hole longer on a course will surely destroy the charm, character and personality because it places the emphasis on how to make each and every hole as long as it can be without regard to the whole rhythm and flow thing that the original architect likely envisioned.

Joe

[Mike McGuire]

average on 12 so far today is 3.9

[Kalen Braley]

Chad Campbell just 3 jacked it.  With the wind up today, its playing tough for sure..and 11 to boot!

[Kyle Henderson]

Part of the reason the hole is playing almost a stroke over par is that the pros are required to play lofted clubs, thus getting their ball above the trees were shifting winds can play havoc.

[Brian_Ewen]

Part of the reason the hole is playing almost a stroke over par is that the pros are required to play lofted clubs, thus getting their ball above the trees were shifting winds can play havoc.

You mean the Pros with one shot in their bag ?

[Joe Hancock]

Part of the reason the hole is playing almost a stroke over par is that the pros are required to play lofted clubs, thus getting their ball above the trees were shifting winds can play havoc.

You mean the Pros with one shot in their bag ?

Can the hole be played any other way?