Lake Lure in NC Ross?

[ed_getka]

I drove by this course after a day hiking with the kids. I saw a Ross attribution on the sign. I would love to hear from someone who has played it and what they thought of the course.
   I just looked it up in Architects of Golf and they have John Van Kleek listed.

[Carl Johnson]

Ed,

Your post caught my eye because I was not aware that this was a Ross course.  The Lake Lure Municipal Course (9 hole) website does say it's a Ross design, I see, but I also note that it is not listed as a Ross course in Brad Klein's book, Discovering Donald Ross.  Maybe that's something Brad could shed some light on.  (In any case, I have not played it.)

[ed_getka]

Carl,
    I checked the Klein book and the Fay book and neither has any mention. I am curious how they are making a connection to Ross. I don't know Van Kleek's background, does he have any connection to Ross?

[John_Conley]

I played it last summer.  Pretty wild in places, quite hilly.  Fun.

[ed_getka]

Thanks John. My son wants to go back and play there this summer. Any info on the Ross attribution?

[Jason McNamara]

FWIW, Cornish/Whitten list Van Kleek only.

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,
    I checked the Klein book and the Fay book and neither has any mention. I am curious how they are making a connection to Ross. I don't know Van Kleek's background, does he have any connection to Ross?

Ed, here's what the NY Times had to say about the Van Kleek - Ross "connection" last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/sports/golf/04golfmain.html

[ed_getka]

Carl,
    I checked the Klein book and the Fay book and neither has any mention. I am curious how they are making a connection to Ross. I don't know Van Kleek's background, does he have any connection to Ross?

Ed, here's what the NY Times had to say about the Van Kleek - Ross "connection" last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/sports/golf/04golfmain.html

Carl,
   Thanks for the link.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Who the heck cares about the golf course?  Tell us about the hiking!

[Mike_Cirba]

Ed,

Lake Lure was indeed designed by Donald Ross and opened in May, 1927.

Or, it was designed and constructed by Wayne Stile and John Van Kleek and opened in May, 1927.

It's pretty wild, actually.

I've found two May 1927 news accounts, a week apart, in the St. Petersburg (FL) Evening Independent from the exact same opening month that are completely contradictory, with one crediting Ross and the other Stiles/Van Kleek.

I'll see if I can find something that breaks the tie. 

[ed_getka]

Who the heck cares about the golf course?  Tell us about the hiking!

Mark,
   The hiking was good on the lee side of Grandfather Mountain. Couldn't go up on the spine where the ladders and cables are due to 85mph winds!

Mike,
    Thanks for the info. Simultaneous architects, you don't see that every day. I'll be back up there this summer with my son to play the course and I will see what I can find out.

[Carl Johnson]

I played the 9-hole Lake Lure Golf Club course (a/k/a Lake Lure Municipal Golf Course) today.  They advertise it as a Ross course.  As Ed pointed out above, the sign at the entrance says it's a Donald Ross course.  The scorecard includes the following wordings: "Born in the Golden Age of Golf Design" and "A Donald Ross Design Est.[ablished] 1927.  I asked in the golf shop whether they had any documentary evidence that it was a Ross.  The young lady working the desk, the daughter of the superintendent (who was at that time not available), said they had none that she knew of.  A young man in the shop (worker, guest??) chimed in that there was no documentary evidence, but they thought that the crowned greens looked like Ross greens.  However, crowned or not, and I wouldn't call them that, they didn't look particularly like "Ross greens" that I am familiar with.  Nevertheless, they were very good greens for a small town muni course.  It was 2,975 yds. from the longest tees at par 35 (two 5s and three 3s).

In any case [(1) John Van Kleek, (2) Wayne Stiles & Van Kleek, (3) Ross or (4) someone else], it has interesting holes (except for hole no. 1, a flat, straightaway par 5) and seemed well laid out on the hilly land.  It was not done by a hack.  It cost me $14, as a senior on a Monday, to play nine with a cart.  It took about an hour (which was about all the time I had).  A four ball and then a two ball let me play through.  I'd go back and again, walk and take my time.  It would be fun.

On a personal note, I came the closest I have ever come to a hole in one - to two inches on number 2 - which I played at 177 yds.  Although I was a single, the shot was witnessed by a mower man who gave me a thumbs up -- so, if it had gone in, I had a witness (just like the kid in the TV ad several years ago).  Also, there appeared to be no food or beverage service at the course, so I'd have gotten off on the drinks.  I don't think the one will ever come -- time is running out.

[bill_k]

Being a native of WNC, I have driven by the Lake Lure course many times and always wondered about the attribution. Western North Carolina (with the exception of Asheville) was still very much a backwater in the 1920's. There are several small golf courses that either possess no documentation of their beginnings, or a great deal of confusion remains about who did what, and when.
A couple of examples that come to mind are Blowing Rock CC and Lake Junaluska GC. Blowing Rock attributed their golf course to Ross for many, many years - with little if any idea that Raynor and Banks had been there AFTER Ross. Apparently Ross came in around 1922, renovated the existing nine holes, and added nine more. 3-4 years later, Raynor (per George Bahto) comes in and builds a minimum of 6 new holes beyond the Ross routing. Sometime in the 80's Tom Jackson took the Raynor holes out of play and built 9 (?) new holes. As of 2006 several of the Raynor/Banks holes were still there, but were not being maintained. A clubhouse fire ensured that the scant documentary evidence of Raynor's involvement disappeared and until recently, Ross was a FAR bigger name, although from what I could discern, it's very difficult to tell who is responsible for the present 18 holes...probably a mixture of Ross, Raynor, and Jackson.

Lake Junaluska GC is a public course owned by the Methodist assembly. I've seen some really old photos dating from the 1910-1920's, so it's been around a while. No one I've asked seems to have any idea who designed the nine holes that were there prior to a course expansion in the early 90's. All of those nine greens and fairway corridors are still extant, and definitely look as if a professional architect had a hand in their creation. The only professional architect, to my knowledge, to come anywhere near Haywood County, NC prior to 1984 was Donald Ross, who designed nine holes at Waynesville CCin the mid-20's. For years, Waynesville was unaware of their own connection to Ross, and have only recently begun to promote it in advertising. I have an educated suspicion that Ross (or someone he was affiliated with) had some involvement with Lake Junaluska GC...although I doubt I could ever prove it.

Just because you can't readily find proof that Lake Lure has a connection to Ross, does not exclude him, based on the area's history.

[Howard Riefs]

Additionally, about 30 miles from Lake Lure GC is Hendersonville Country Club, which claims to be a Ross design.

http://www.hendersonvillecc.com/

(As an aside: Back in the early 80s, I went to summer camp in the area. I remember hitting balls at a driving range at a nearby course ... but don't recall which one. Ahh... memories)

[Bret Lawrence]

I recently came across a few North Carolina newspaper articles mentioning Lake Lure Golf Course.


The first article mentions that negotiations are pending with Donald Ross to construct an 18 hole golf course and possibly a second course.  This article is from The Danbury Reporter-January 16, 1924



The next article (3 years later) mentions that plans have been devised by Stiles and Van Kleet(sic), golf course architects of Florida. This article is from the Forest City Courier- March 11, 1926



The following article again mentions Stiles and Van Kleet(sic) as the architects.  This article is from the Forest City Courier-October 20, 1927



The last article (which pre dates the last one I posted) was posted several months back by Rees Miliken in the Sanford, NC thread mentioning Stiles and Van Kleek.  This article is from May 21, 1927
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19270521&id=KM1PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q1QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5306,1520236&hl=en

[Carl Rogers]

Wife has friends nearby in Brevard ...always wondering if Lake Lure was worth the drive.  It looks like it is.

[Jonathan Mallard]

There's also the Bald Mountain, and Apple Valley courses very close as part of the Rumbling Bald Resort.


Bald Mountain is very much up and down the hill. I'd give it a Doak 3. The most interesting feature is the 16th hole. That, and the bridge to the 17th tee. A few scenes from Dirty Dancing were shot there, and I can picture Jennifer Grey running along that bridge.


Apple Valley is a Dan Maples course. The 3rd hole has the concept of a Biarritz - if you picture it very, very hard in your minds eye. The 7th hole might be the worst example I've ever seen of forcing a par 72 into existence. The other 15 are unremarkable. I'd give it a Doak 2.

[Carl Johnson]

Wife has friends nearby in Brevard ...always wondering if Lake Lure was worth the drive.  It looks like it is.

Nine holes.  Unless you're a "collector" of little old small town courses -- quirk -- not likely worth it.  A somewhat similar 9-holer in Old Fort is better in my view, but not by a lot.

[Lyndell Young]

Tryon NC nearby also has a 9 hole Ross

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is one more article attributing the design of Lake Lure golf course to Stiles & Van Kleek.  This article is from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle-May 26, 1926:





I have attached the full article below.  On the same page is a nice skyline photograph of Downtown Asheville in 1926.  http://tinyurl.com/pvrc9tw

[Sven Nilsen]

One more mention of Stiles.

An Ad for Lake Lure from the Index-Journal May 28, 1926.