[Richard Choi]

In order to better understand exactly what happened with GD ranking, I decided to dive into the numbers a little more. Thankfully, GD publishes the points for every category (unfortunately, they were in graphics so I had to type individual numbers to my Excel spreadsheet).

So, let's take a look and see how the ranking would differ under different scenario.

What if Pat Mucci ran GD rating? Most likely he will get rid of any category not related to golf course architecture.

Here is what the top 100 list would look like if you add only Shot Value (2X), Resistance to Scoring, and Design Variety

Rank   Course   Shot Value + Resistance + Design Variety
1   Pine Valley G.C.   36.58
2   Augusta National G.C   35.61
3   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   35.06
4   Oakmont C.C.   34.85
5   Winged Foot G.C. (West)   34.49
6   Merion G.C. (East)   34.23
7   Pebble Beach Golf Links   33.95
8   Cypress Point Club   33.67
9   Oak Hill C.C. (East)   33.33
10   Bethpage State Park (Black)   33.06
11   Prairie Dunes C.C.   33.05
12   Seminole G.C.   33.05
13   Crystal Downs G.C.   33.04
14   Oakland Hills C.C. (South)   32.90
15   Medinah C.C. (No 3)   32.87
16   Victory National G.C.   32.87
17   Pacific Dunes   32.82
18   Fishers Island Club   32.76
19   Whistling Straits (Straits)   32.76
20   The Olympic Club (Lake)   32.71
21   Muirfield Village G.C.   32.69
22   Pinehurst Resort & C.C. (No 2)   32.67
23   Sand Hills G.C.   32.62
24   Chicago G.C   32.60
25   The Country Club (Clyde/Squirrel)   32.59
26   The Ocean Course   32.59
27   National Golf Links of America   32.57
28   Riviera C.C.   32.46
29   TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)   32.42
30   Wade Hampton G.C.   32.41
31   Butler National G.C   32.27
32   Inverness Club   32.20
33   Southern Hills C.C.   32.17
34   Olympia Fields C.C. (North)   32.16
35   Baltusrol G.C. (Lower)   32.06
36   Spyglass Hill G. Cse   32.06
37   The Golf Club   32.01
38   Pete Dye G.C.   31.94
39   Castle Pines G.C.   31.82
40   Bandon Dunes   31.78
41   The Club at Black Rock   31.74
42   The Honors Course   31.70
43   Sebonack G.C.   31.70
44   Los Angeles C.C. (North)   31.65
45   The Prince Course   31.59
46   Harbour Town G. Links   31.55
47   Rich Harvest Links   31.42
48   Winged Foot G.C. (East)   31.33
49   Long Cove Club   31.32
50   Shadow Creek   31.30
51   Plainfield C.C.   31.28
52   Hazeltine National G.C.   31.25
53   San Francisco G.C.   31.24
54   Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon)   31.21
55   Galloway National G.C.   31.20
56   Garden City G.C.   31.18
57   Congressional C.C. (Blue)   31.16
58   Cherry Hills C.C.   31.12
59   Scioto C.C.   31.12
60   Dallas National G.C.   31.09
61   Aronimink G.C   31.07
62   Kinlock C.C.   31.07
63   Tullymore G.C.   31.07
64   Shoal Creek   31.05
65   Canyata G.C.   31.03
66   Arcadia Bluffs G.C.   30.99
67   Milwaukee C.C.   30.97
68   Quaker Ridge G.C.   30.97
69   Peach Tree G.C.   30.92
70   Sycamore Hills G.C.   30.91
71   Eugene C.C.   30.85
72   Valhalla G.C.   30.83
73   Bandon Trails   30.81
74   Flint Hills National G.C.   30.76
75   Double Eagle Club   30.71
76   Black Diamond (Quarry)   30.66
77   Interlachen C.C.   30.65
78   The Quarry at La Quinta   30.65
79   Crooked Stick G.C.   30.63
80   Sahalee C.C. (South/North)   30.63
81   East Lake G.C.   30.62
82   Calusa Pines G.C   30.61
83   Kiawah Island Club (Cassique)   30.58
84   Eagle Point G.C.   30.51
85   Kittansett Club   30.50
86   Mayacama G.C.   30.47
87   Hudson National G.C.   30.45
88   Stone Canyon Club   30.38
89   Blackwolf Run (River)   30.37
90   Monterey Peninsula C.C. (Shore)   30.34
91   Somerset Hills C.C.   30.29
92   The Preserve G.C.   30.24
93   The Estancia Club   30.17
94   Shoreacres   30.16
95   Laurel Valley G.C.   30.12
96   Sanctuary   30.06
97   Maidstone Club   29.90
98   Ocean Forest G.C.   29.79
99   Grandfather G. & C.C.   29.68
100   Sage Valley G.C.   29.57

Hmm... I am liking this list much better.

But let's go one step further. What if you remove "Resistance to Scoring" from this list? Personally, I believe architecture should also be about fun, not just one brutal hole after another.

Here is a list with just Shot Value (2X) and Variety

Rank   Course   Shot Value + Design Variety
1   Pine Valley G.C.   27.58
2   Augusta National G.C   26.83
3   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   26.18
4   Oakmont C.C.   25.90
5   Cypress Point Club   25.87
6   Merion G.C. (East)   25.70
7   Pebble Beach Golf Links   25.62
8   Winged Foot G.C. (West)   25.62
9   Fishers Island Club   25.07
10   Prairie Dunes C.C.   24.99
11   National Golf Links of America   24.94
12   Crystal Downs G.C.   24.88
13   Oak Hill C.C. (East)   24.85
14   Chicago G.C   24.79
15   Seminole G.C.   24.78
16   Pacific Dunes   24.77
17   Sand Hills G.C.   24.63
18   The Country Club (Clyde/Squirrel)   24.54
19   Muirfield Village G.C.   24.47
20   Victory National G.C.   24.47
21   Medinah C.C. (No 3)   24.41
22   Bethpage State Park (Black)   24.41
23   Wade Hampton G.C.   24.40
24   Riviera C.C.   24.37
25   The Olympic Club (Lake)   24.34
26   Oakland Hills C.C. (South)   24.33
27   Pinehurst Resort & C.C. (No 2)   24.33
28   Whistling Straits (Straits)   24.30
29   The Golf Club   24.11
30   Southern Hills C.C.   24.08
31   TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)   24.08
32   Inverness Club   24.06
33   The Ocean Course   24.04
34   Olympia Fields C.C. (North)   23.98
35   Pete Dye G.C.   23.98
36   Bandon Dunes   23.90
37   Shadow Creek   23.88
38   The Club at Black Rock   23.84
39   Butler National G.C   23.78
40   Sebonack G.C.   23.77
41   Castle Pines G.C.   23.76
42   Los Angeles C.C. (North)   23.74
43   San Francisco G.C.   23.70
44   Garden City G.C.   23.69
45   Baltusrol G.C. (Lower)   23.68
46   The Honors Course   23.67
47   Harbour Town G. Links   23.65
48   Spyglass Hill G. Cse   23.65
49   Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon)   23.52
50   Cherry Hills C.C.   23.50
51   The Prince Course   23.48
52   Kinlock C.C.   23.45
53   Long Cove Club   23.44
54   Rich Harvest Links   23.41
55   Scioto C.C.   23.41
56   Winged Foot G.C. (East)   23.41
57   Plainfield C.C.   23.40
58   Milwaukee C.C.   23.39
59   Galloway National G.C.   23.30
60   Shoal Creek   23.27
61   Canyata G.C.   23.26
62   Congressional C.C. (Blue)   23.25
63   Shoreacres   23.25
64   Tullymore G.C.   23.22
65   Eugene C.C.   23.21
66   Interlachen C.C.   23.21
67   Dallas National G.C.   23.19
68   Arcadia Bluffs G.C.   23.19
69   Peach Tree G.C.   23.16
70   The Quarry at La Quinta   23.16
71   Bandon Trails   23.14
72   Quaker Ridge G.C.   23.14
73   Somerset Hills C.C.   23.13
74   Sycamore Hills G.C.   23.12
75   Black Diamond (Quarry)   23.11
76   Monterey Peninsula C.C. (Shore)   23.11
77   Double Eagle Club   23.10
78   Flint Hills National G.C.   23.10
79   Valhalla G.C.   23.09
80   Hazeltine National G.C.   23.05
81   Calusa Pines G.C   23.04
82   Kiawah Island Club (Cassique)   22.99
83   Aronimink G.C   22.98
84   Kittansett Club   22.97
85   Maidstone Club   22.87
86   Sahalee C.C. (South/North)   22.86
87   Crooked Stick G.C.   22.85
88   The Estancia Club   22.84
89   Stone Canyon Club   22.82
90   Eagle Point G.C.   22.78
91   Mayacama G.C.   22.78
92   East Lake G.C.   22.73
93   Laurel Valley G.C.   22.69
94   Blackwolf Run (River)   22.66
95   Hudson National G.C.   22.66
96   The Preserve G.C.   22.58
97   Sanctuary   22.52
98   Sage Valley G.C.   22.29
99   Ocean Forest G.C.   22.26
100   Grandfather G. & C.C.   22.26

I think this is my favorite list.

[Richard Choi]

OK, one more list.

I think GD should just rename "Conditioning" category for what it really is - "Exclusivity".

The public courses just get PUNISHED harshly on this list.

Rank   Course   Conditioning
1   Augusta National G.C   9.27
2   The Quarry at La Quinta   8.74
3   Oakmont C.C.   8.70
4   Double Eagle Club   8.65
5   Pine Valley G.C.   8.62
6   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   8.56
7   Muirfield Village G.C.   8.49
8   Canyata G.C.   8.44
9   Oak Hill C.C. (East)   8.42
10   Chicago G.C   8.41
11   Oakland Hills C.C. (South)   8.39
12   Butler National G.C   8.38
13   Kinlock C.C.   8.35
14   Sage Valley G.C.   8.33
15   Merion G.C. (East)   8.30
16   Baltusrol G.C. (Lower)   8.27
17   Wade Hampton G.C.   8.26
18   Winged Foot G.C. (West)   8.22
19   Milwaukee C.C.   8.21
20   Sand Hills G.C.   8.20
21   Southern Hills C.C.   8.20
22   Rich Harvest Links   8.19
23   Cypress Point Club   8.18
24   Castle Pines G.C.   8.17
25   Seminole G.C.   8.17
26   Flint Hills National G.C.   8.16
27   The Club at Black Rock   8.15
28   The Preserve G.C.   8.11
29   Dallas National G.C.   8.10
30   The Country Club (Clyde/Squirrel)   8.09
31   Stone Canyon Club   8.09
32   Interlachen C.C.   8.07
33   Medinah C.C. (No 3)   8.07
34   Eagle Point G.C.   8.06
35   Cherry Hills C.C.   8.04
36   Crystal Downs G.C.   8.03
37   Mayacama G.C.   8.02
38   San Francisco G.C.   8.02
39   Laurel Valley G.C.   8.01
40   East Lake G.C.   7.97
41   Inverness Club   7.97
42   Eugene C.C.   7.95
43   The Honors Course   7.95
44   Hudson National G.C.   7.95
45   Olympia Fields C.C. (North)   7.95
46   Prairie Dunes C.C.   7.95
47   Victory National G.C.   7.95
48   Shoal Creek   7.94
49   Galloway National G.C.   7.93
50   Plainfield C.C.   7.93
51   Sahalee C.C. (South/North)   7.93
52   Shoreacres   7.92
53   Ocean Forest G.C.   7.91
54   The Golf Club   7.88
55   Sebonack G.C.   7.88
56   Aronimink G.C   7.87
57   Bethpage State Park (Black)   7.87
58   The Estancia Club   7.87
59   Riviera C.C.   7.87
60   Calusa Pines G.C   7.86
61   Congressional C.C. (Blue)   7.86
62   Sycamore Hills G.C.   7.85
63   Scioto C.C.   7.84
64   Peach Tree G.C.   7.83
65   Grandfather G. & C.C.   7.82
66   Shadow Creek   7.82
67   Crooked Stick G.C.   7.81
68   Los Angeles C.C. (North)   7.81
69   Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon)   7.80
70   Kittansett Club   7.78
71   National Golf Links of America   7.76
72   Tullymore G.C.   7.74
73   Kiawah Island Club (Cassique)   7.70
74   Valhalla G.C.   7.69
75   Arcadia Bluffs G.C.   7.67
76   Garden City G.C.   7.66
77   The Olympic Club (Lake)   7.66
78   Hazeltine National G.C.   7.64
79   Long Cove Club   7.64
80   The Ocean Course   7.60
81   Pinehurst Resort & C.C. (No 2)   7.60
82   Pacific Dunes   7.56
83   Pebble Beach Golf Links   7.54
84   Quaker Ridge G.C.   7.54
85   Sanctuary   7.54
86   Monterey Peninsula C.C. (Shore)   7.52
87   TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)   7.52
88   Somerset Hills C.C.   7.45
89   Bandon Trails   7.43
90   Pete Dye G.C.   7.41
91   Bandon Dunes   7.40
92   Winged Foot G.C. (East)   7.40
93   Blackwolf Run (River)   7.39
94   Fishers Island Club   7.31
95   Whistling Straits (Straits)   7.30
96   Spyglass Hill G. Cse   7.26
97   Black Diamond (Quarry)   7.16
98   Harbour Town G. Links   7.12
99   Maidstone Club   6.92
100   The Prince Course   6.75

I understand that the public courses get more traffic and conditioning suffers from it. However, this list just rings very false to me. First, Pacific Dunes gets 0.13 points more than Bandon Dunes, even though the conditioning is identical. 

Also, the conditioning at Baltusrol didn't impress me that much. Some of the high-end daily fee course in NW have better conditioning from tee to green than Baltusrol (other than Baltusrol greens run faster), but Baltusrol ranks 16th. Seems this ranking is pretty suspect.

[Tom Huckaby]

Richard:

Interesting exercise and thanks for the effort.

I don't like any list on which Cypress Point falls as far as it does in your first one.. and I also quite firmly believe that the criteria you eliminated do matter to golfers.. so whereas the results of the last one are neat, well... I don't believe in the methodology.

Can you do one where resistance to scoring ALONE is eliminated? That is include all GD criteria except that.  Note if I were king I'd include RTS and add back in "Playability" - which we used to have - but make me compromise and eliminating RTS to me would be a good thing.

Disagree with your take on conditioning, btw.  Oh the results bear you out, for sure... but if the raters evaluate this PROPERLY, it wouldn't be this way.  BTW, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes are not identical - or at least weren't the three times I've been there.  In any case to me Conditioning is a "rater education" or "rater error" issue.... I do think quality of conditions matters big time to golfers, and thus ought to count.

TH

[Cliff Hamm]

Find it interesting that the two Winged Foot courses are so far apart.  West at 18 and East at 92 for conditioning.  I would be shocked if there is much of a difference, never mind that much of a difference.  Tell me if I'm wrong, but this again may point to the bias in the rankings.

[Tom Huckaby]

Find it interesting that the two Winged Foot courses are so far apart.  West at 18 and East at 92 for conditioning.  I would be shocked if there is much of a difference, never mind that much of a difference.  Tell me if I'm wrong, but this again may point to the bias in the rankings.

Rater error there... must be... I played both (just once) and at least when I was there they were exactly the same....

[PThomas]

interesting stuff...but remember too that some courses that didnt make it into the top 100 might very well move into it depending upon which criteria you remove

[Richard Choi]

Tom, as you wish...

Rank   Course   Huckaby Rating
1   Augusta National G.C   64.61
2   Pine Valley G.C.   64.03
3   Cypress Point Club   62.04
4   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   61.37
5   Pebble Beach Golf Links   60.49
6   Oakmont C.C.   60.22
7   Merion G.C. (East)   60.05
8   Fishers Island Club   59.59
9   Winged Foot G.C. (West)   59.36
10   National Golf Links of America   58.72
11   Seminole G.C.   58.64
12   Chicago G.C   58.63
13   Sand Hills G.C.   58.40
14   Pacific Dunes   58.31
15   Oak Hill C.C. (East)   58.26
16   Wade Hampton G.C.   58.04
17   Crystal Downs G.C.   57.99
18   The Country Club (Clyde/Squirrel)   57.98
19   Muirfield Village G.C.   57.64
20   Prairie Dunes C.C.   57.62
21   Medinah C.C. (No 3)   57.30
22   Whistling Straits (Straits)   57.07
23   Oakland Hills C.C. (South)   56.90
24   The Club at Black Rock   56.85
25   Castle Pines G.C.   56.59
26   Victory National G.C.   56.55
27   Bandon Dunes   56.47
28   The Olympic Club (Lake)   56.44
29   Riviera C.C.   56.42
30   San Francisco G.C.   56.42
31   Shadow Creek   56.35
32   The Ocean Course   56.28
33   Baltusrol G.C. (Lower)   56.24
34   The Golf Club   56.12
35   Pinehurst Resort & C.C. (No 2)   56.09
36   Southern Hills C.C.   56.06
37   Bethpage State Park (Black)   56.00
38   Canyata G.C.   55.96
39   The Quarry at La Quinta   55.93
40   Sebonack G.C.   55.91
41   The Honors Course   55.82
42   Inverness Club   55.65
43   Kinlock C.C.   55.63
44   Garden City G.C.   55.59
45   Milwaukee C.C.   55.56
46   Butler National G.C   55.46
47   Shoal Creek   55.39
48   Arcadia Bluffs G.C.   55.37
49   Los Angeles C.C. (North)   55.35
50   Olympia Fields C.C. (North)   55.34
51   Cherry Hills C.C.   55.32
52   Rich Harvest Links   55.32
53   Double Eagle Club   55.11
54   Kittansett Club   55.10
55   Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon)   55.10
56   Shoreacres   55.08
57   TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)   55.01
58   Interlachen C.C.   54.87
59   Monterey Peninsula C.C. (Shore)   54.78
60   Scioto C.C.   54.76
61   Pete Dye G.C.   54.76
62   Spyglass Hill G. Cse   54.74
63   Peach Tree G.C.   54.73
64   Eugene C.C.   54.71
65   Flint Hills National G.C.   54.68
66   Dallas National G.C.   54.64
67   Laurel Valley G.C.   54.54
68   Maidstone Club   54.54
69   Stone Canyon Club   54.50
70   The Estancia Club   54.43
71   Winged Foot G.C. (East)   54.37
72   Congressional C.C. (Blue)   54.34
73   Somerset Hills C.C.   54.31
74   The Preserve G.C.   54.30
75   Mayacama G.C.   54.25
76   Sage Valley G.C.   54.25
77   Bandon Trails   54.24
78   East Lake G.C.   54.17
79   Galloway National G.C.   54.16
80   Plainfield C.C.   54.15
81   Long Cove Club   54.11
82   Harbour Town G. Links   54.08
83   Eagle Point G.C.   54.01
84   Quaker Ridge G.C.   53.99
85   Kiawah Island Club (Cassique)   53.98
86   The Prince Course   53.97
87   Sahalee C.C. (South/North)   53.96
88   Black Diamond (Quarry)   53.91
89   Aronimink G.C   53.88
90   Calusa Pines G.C   53.70
91   Tullymore G.C.   53.53
92   Sanctuary   53.46
93   Grandfather G. & C.C.   53.43
94   Sycamore Hills G.C.   53.41
95   Valhalla G.C.   53.41
96   Hudson National G.C.   53.39
97   Ocean Forest G.C.   53.34
98   Blackwolf Run (River)   53.11
99   Hazeltine National G.C.   53.09
100   Crooked Stick G.C.   53.03

[Tom Huckaby]

interesting stuff...but remember too that some courses that didnt make it into the top 100 might very well move into it depending upon which criteria you remove

Well know that is a hell of a good point also.  I'd be VERY curious to see a list going down to 200, with Conditioning alone removed... betcha Ballyneal rises big time.... my contention being that those who saw it in 2007 marked it down for such to such a large extent that that alone caused it's failure to make top 100.... (btw not saying they were RIGHT to do so, just that from stories at least a few did)....



Richard - thanks!

I like that list best of all.  Damn if we only had Playability still....

[Richard Choi]

Tom, you gotta admit Conditioning category is just horrible.

Seriously, how does Bethpage Black get higher conditioning than Shadow Creek or Whistling Straits?

Another problem with Conditioning is that it is very dependent on when you visit. If you only go to the course once every 5 years or so (or even less), can you REALLY rate on its conditioning? Unless the raters are going to every course every year, several times a year, conditioning as a category should be dropped. Or at the very least, you should only deduct points for conditioning if it is truly detrimental to the architecture.

And Paul you are correct, I believe many other courses would pop into top 100 if some of the other scales are used, but I don't have that data...

[Tom Huckaby]

Richard:

I admit the RESULTS are horrible.

But I still maintain it ought to count.  The raters just need to do a better job of evaluating it... as the definition stands.

However I do also like your suggestion... make it a bonus point for great, or negative point for awful or out of place.  It shouldn't count as much as the other criteria.

TH

[Richard Choi]

OK, I can't resist. One more list. This is the Huckaby list minus Conditioning...

Rank   Course   Huckaby-Conditioning
1   Pine Valley G.C.   55.41
2   Augusta National G.C   55.34
3   Cypress Point Club   53.86
4   Pebble Beach Golf Links   52.95
5   Shinnecock Hills G.C.   52.81
6   Fishers Island Club   52.28
7   Merion G.C. (East)   51.75
8   Oakmont C.C.   51.52
9   Winged Foot G.C. (West)   51.14
10   National Golf Links of America   50.96
11   Pacific Dunes   50.75
12   Seminole G.C.   50.47
13   Chicago G.C   50.22
14   Sand Hills G.C.   50.20
15   Crystal Downs G.C.   49.96
16   The Country Club (Clyde/Squirrel)   49.89
17   Oak Hill C.C. (East)   49.84
18   Wade Hampton G.C.   49.78
19   Whistling Straits (Straits)   49.77
20   Prairie Dunes C.C.   49.67
21   Medinah C.C. (No 3)   49.23
22   Muirfield Village G.C.   49.15
23   Bandon Dunes   49.07
24   The Olympic Club (Lake)   48.78
25   The Club at Black Rock   48.70
26   The Ocean Course   48.68
27   Victory National G.C.   48.60
28   Riviera C.C.   48.55
29   Shadow Creek   48.53
30   Oakland Hills C.C. (South)   48.51
31   Pinehurst Resort & C.C. (No 2)   48.49
32   Castle Pines G.C.   48.42
33   San Francisco G.C.   48.40
34   The Golf Club   48.24
35   Bethpage State Park (Black)   48.13
36   Sebonack G.C.   48.03
37   Baltusrol G.C. (Lower)   47.97
38   Garden City G.C.   47.93
39   The Honors Course   47.87
40   Southern Hills C.C.   47.86
41   Arcadia Bluffs G.C.   47.70
42   Inverness Club   47.68
43   Maidstone Club   47.62
44   Los Angeles C.C. (North)   47.54
45   Canyata G.C.   47.52
46   TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)   47.49
47   Spyglass Hill G. Cse   47.48
48   Shoal Creek   47.45
49   Olympia Fields C.C. (North)   47.39
50   Milwaukee C.C.   47.35
51   Pete Dye G.C.   47.35
52   Kittansett Club   47.32
53   Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon)   47.30
54   Cherry Hills C.C.   47.28
55   Kinlock C.C.   47.28
56   Monterey Peninsula C.C. (Shore)   47.26
57   The Prince Course   47.22
58   The Quarry at La Quinta   47.19
59   Shoreacres   47.16
60   Rich Harvest Links   47.13
61   Butler National G.C   47.08
62   Winged Foot G.C. (East)   46.97
63   Harbour Town G. Links   46.96
64   Scioto C.C.   46.92
65   Peach Tree G.C.   46.90
66   Somerset Hills C.C.   46.86
67   Bandon Trails   46.81
68   Interlachen C.C.   46.80
69   Eugene C.C.   46.76
70   Black Diamond (Quarry)   46.75
71   The Estancia Club   46.56
72   Dallas National G.C.   46.54
73   Laurel Valley G.C.   46.53
74   Flint Hills National G.C.   46.52
75   Congressional C.C. (Blue)   46.48
76   Long Cove Club   46.47
77   Double Eagle Club   46.46
78   Quaker Ridge G.C.   46.45
79   Stone Canyon Club   46.41
80   Kiawah Island Club (Cassique)   46.28
81   Galloway National G.C.   46.23
82   Mayacama G.C.   46.23
83   Plainfield C.C.   46.22
84   East Lake G.C.   46.20
85   The Preserve G.C.   46.19
86   Sahalee C.C. (South/North)   46.03
87   Aronimink G.C   46.01
88   Eagle Point G.C.   45.95
89   Sage Valley G.C.   45.92
90   Sanctuary   45.92
91   Calusa Pines G.C   45.84
92   Tullymore G.C.   45.79
93   Blackwolf Run (River)   45.72
94   Valhalla G.C.   45.72
95   Grandfather G. & C.C.   45.61
96   Sycamore Hills G.C.   45.56
97   Hazeltine National G.C.   45.45
98   Hudson National G.C.   45.44
99   Ocean Forest G.C.   45.43
100   Crooked Stick G.C.   45.22

I like this list as well...

[Tom Huckaby]

That's a cool list also; although the relative fall of Sand Hills pains me.

 

[Cliff Hamm]

Seems to me that one of the problems with conditiong is using a 1-10 scale.  Keep it simple. At most 1-5 or perhaps 1-3. 

[jkinney]

As I had suspected to be the case (in the the first main thread on the GD rankings), NGLA fell out of the top ten because it's conditioning score was 71st. For all of you who are NGLA afficianados, rest assured that this was a temporary aberration over the past 2 or 3 years caused by shaving the course too radically for the Singles tourney in June, thus leaving the grass vulnerable to the onset of the heat in July. I'm told on good authority this practice is over with for good.

[John_Cullum]

What if Pat Mucci ran GD rating?

There would be a panel of one

[Ted Kramer]

The list would be better.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

The list would be better.

-Ted

Ok I can't let that go.

Just how would my friend Pat make it better?

[Ted Kramer]

The list would be better.

-Ted

Ok I can't let that go.

Just how would my friend Pat make it better?

Simple, the rankings would be done by a bright man who takes GCA seriously.
He isn't a rater looking for hand-outs or the "benefits" associated with the job.
And Ballyneal would be on the F'ing list.

-Ted

[George Pazin]

Richard, you should be know by now that Huck was going to keep manipulating the rankings till Pebble moved ahead of Oakmont...

Cliff, I don't believe that iteration was only for conditioning, but I could be misunderstanding the methodology. In other words, it's not conditioning that differentiates the two WF course's rankings, but rather other things. I think Richard was just adding conditioning back into his first attempts.

[John_Cullum]

If Pat were in charge, there would not be a list. He would ask for nominations and then tell everyone why they are wrong

[Tom Huckaby]

Richard, you should be know by now that Huck was going to keep manipulating the rankings till Pebble moved ahead of Oakmont...

I will admit it pleased me to see the one on which PB jumped ahead.... the one with Resistance to Scoring eliminated.... hmmmmmmmmmm...

 

And John C., I tend to agree with your assessment.  He'd also however state way after the fact why you nominated something and use it in an argument against you, when you likely never nominated it at all and certainly never explained why.

Still I am interested in Ted's answer....

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff, I don't believe that iteration was only for conditioning, but I could be misunderstanding the methodology. In other words, it's not conditioning that differentiates the two WF course's rankings, but rather other things. I think Richard was just adding conditioning back into his first attempts.

George, sorry but I think you're mistaken.  The title/column heading is conditioning and if you notice the point totals max out at only 10.

[Ted Kramer]

Richard, you should be know by now that Huck was going to keep manipulating the rankings till Pebble moved ahead of Oakmont...

I will admit it pleased me to see the one on which PB jumped ahead.... the one with Resistance to Scoring eliminated.... hmmmmmmmmmm...

 

And John C., I tend to agree with your assessment.  He'd also however state way after the fact why you nominated something and use it in an argument against you, when you likely never nominated it at all and certainly never explained why.

Still I am interested in Ted's answer....

Anything is particular about my answer that "interests" you?
Do you disagree?

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes, I rather disagree completely.  Thus I asked for reasons WHY you think it so.

But aha!  I see you have given such. I had not seen that before.

So these are your reasons, which I shall address one by one.


Simple, the rankings would be done by a bright man who takes GCA seriously.
I thought the assumption was that Pat RAN the list, not compiled it himself.  If the former, well he still has to deal with 900 raters, not all of whom meet your standard.  How would Pat fix this?  Please understand also that those who do run the list now are indeed bright and indeed do take GCA quite seriously.  If it is a list compiled himself, well that would be interesting for sure, but I am not convinced it would be any better or worse than what GD does now.

He isn't a rater looking for hand-outs or the "benefits" associated with the job.
same question as above.  Note those who run the list are not looking for handouts.  Some of the raters do, certainly.  It's a nice perk.

And Ballyneal would be on the F'ing list.
Pat has not played there.  He'd make sure to manipulate the list to ensure inclusion of a course he hasn't played?  Or if it's his list he'd include a rating based on the takes of others?


Note again, Pat is my friend.  He's a great guy. I just do think that in your zeal to criticize GD, you have gone off the deep end here logically.

With all due respect,

Tom Huckaby

[Ted Kramer]

Yes, I rather disagree completely.  Thus I asked for reasons WHY you think it so.

But aha!  I see you have given such. I had not seen that before.

So these are your reasons, which I shall address one by one.


Simple, the rankings would be done by a bright man who takes GCA seriously.
I thought the assumption was that Pat RAN the list, not compiled it himself.  If the former, well he still has to deal with 900 raters, not all of whom meet your standard.  How would Pat fix this?  Please understand also that those who do run the list now are indeed bright and indeed do take GCA quite seriously.  If it is a list compiled himself, well that would be interesting for sure, but I am not convinced it would be any better or worse than what GD does now.

He isn't a rater looking for hand-outs or the "benefits" associated with the job.
same question as above.  Note those who run the list are not looking for handouts.  Some of the raters do, certainly.  It's a nice perk.

And Ballyneal would be on the F'ing list.
Pat has not played there.  He'd make sure to manipulate the list to ensure inclusion of a course he hasn't played?  Or if it's his list he'd include a rating based on the takes of others?


Note again, Pat is my friend.  He's a great guy. I just do think that in your zeal to criticize GD, you have gone off the deep end here logically.

With all due respect,

Tom Huckaby

You are 10000% right.
My comments were based on Pat doing the list all by himself, I read the title of the post/thread incorrectly.
I take back everything I said.

Now if Pat did the list all by himself . . .
It would be a better list.

-Ted

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