[John Keenan]

I suspect the average player at Sharps does not care if it is a MacKenzie , they would like it better maintained but not if that meant a raise in greens fees. Mac Kenzie McDonald no matter keep the rates low

Even though it is on the ocean quite hard to ever see it as a destination golf course/resort.

The best outcome I  can see is for SF to sell it to Pacifica where it actually resides.

[David_Tepper]

Tim Liddy -

We were both at a meeting at SF City Hall last fall regarding the future of Lincoln & Sharp Parks. I don't know if that was the first public meeting in SF you have attended, but I trust you got some sense of the various socio-political interests that exist in SF. Building consensus among them is not an easy thing to do.

My sense is the golf establishment in SF is still a bit worn out/hungover from the battle to renovate Harding Park. The fact that the new & improved Harding Park (which I enjoy playing VERY much) has been less than a financial success makes it a even more difficult to make a case for spending more money, which is very hard to come by these days, on Sharp Park. 

At that meeting, you mentioned the great potential Sharp Park had as a restoration/renovation project. Do you have ballpark figures on what it might cost to do the job properly vs. what if would cost to make the present course functional and mitigate the environmental issues?

DT



 

[Tim Liddy]

David,

I do not want to avoid your question on money but do not think it is an important issue. In my mind the money should be raised privately for the improvement of the golf course and possibly leveraged to obtain money from the government for fixing the sea wall. I do not think raising money to restore a Mackenzie golf course on the ocean with cypress trees would be too difficult. Is it $10 million?  It would not be difficult to obtain from private funding.  Give this piece of land to any reasonable person and they could make the mitigation, habitat restoration and golf course become a great example of public golf.

I have never seen one project that so many selfish interest. Soccer moms, environmentalist, unions and municipalities all want a piece of this property for their own interest. The golf community has yet stand up and make its case for great public golf that the Sharp Park has illustrated throughout its history.

Does the SF Park Department have a new director yet?

[Lou_Duran]

"I have never seen one project that so many selfish interest. Soccer moms, environmentalist, unions and municipalities all want a piece of this property for their own interest."

Welcome to America in 2009.  A bunch of politically organized self-interest groups, each claiming to be aggrieved and victimized, and now able to exert their will.  The popular perception of the golfer is their boogeyman, most often male, white, and relatively affluent.

Tim L,

With all the economic losses and capital flight from CA, do you really think that it would be possible to raise $10 million privately for such an endeavor given all the inherent moving parts and strings attached?  And what is a "reasonable person" in the area?  Is there such a creature in, say, Vallejo? 

[Norbert P]

Excerpt from article . . .

"... the proposed ordinance would order city officials to either transfer the property to the National Park Service or develop a joint operating agreement with the federal agency."

End excerpt


Is there a precedent for the National Park Service managing a golf course? 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Also, $10 million is a lot of money to spend on an existing golf course.   Again, I'm not familiar with the whole schmeer but I can't imagine those kind of #'s for correcting this problem.

This is 110 acres, near the ocean, of existing golf, and the city can't make this work?
I have some suspicions on what's happening. 


Jessica Rabbit: What are you talking about? There's no road past Toontown.
Doom: Not yet. Several months ago, I had the good providence to stumble upon this plan of the City Council's. A construction plan of epic proportions. They're calling it - - a freeway!
Eddie Valiant: Freeway? What the hell's a freeway?
Doom: Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast. Traffic jams will be a thing of the past.
Valiant: So that's why you killed Acme and Maroon - for this freeway? I don't get it.
Doom: (smugly) Of course not. You lack vision. I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off. Off and on. All day, all night. Soon, where Toontown once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly-prepared food, tire salons, automobile dealerships, and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.
Valiant: Come on. Nobody's gonna drive this lousy freeway when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.
Doom: Oh, they'll drive. They'll have to. You see, I bought the Red Car so I could dismantle it."

 From "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"

(There is actual truth to that script about conspiricy by GM and oil companies and tire manufacturers.)

 

[John Keenan]

Stag

I think there may well be a precedent for the National Park Service to manage a golf course. Wawona is located in Yosemite National Park.

I am not sure if the Park Service actually runs it or has a contractor do it.

John

[Norbert P]

Stag

 STAG !  That would have been so much better than SLAG. 


  I don't know if I could have lived up to that moniker though.  Slag, well, that set the bar pretty low.  I can do that.

[Joel_Stewart]

On the left hand column of this article is a poll asking if the property should stay as a golf course.  So far the vote is very close, 51% to 49%.

Please take the time to vote.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/08/BA9716SDVJ.DTL&type=green

[Norbert P]

That was easy.

The wording of it doesn't really account for any blend or correction of golf with the critters, though.

Here it is . . .

"What should be the fate of Sharp Park Golf Course?

Remain a golf course (572)
51%
Restored as a habitat for the red-legged frog and garter snake (553)
49%
Total Votes: 1125

Return to Vote »"
************************************
It sounds too "either/or" when in reality you can have both.

I love the last line . . . "Return to Vote" 

  Reminds me of the old adage  "Vote early, vote often" 

[Tim Leahy]

On the left hand column of this article is a poll asking if the property should stay as a golf course.  So far the vote is very close, 51% to 49%.

Please take the time to vote.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/08/BA9716SDVJ.DTL&type=green

It's up to 50/50 get your votes in! 

Also, the President's Cup is coming to SF in October, this is the time to get the whole golf community behind saving this golf course. Somebody should send Tiger a letter, he will be at the President's Cup and his word counts for something!

[Norbert P]

 To contact the Tiger Woods Foundation . . .

 http://www.tigerwoodsfoundation.org/contact_us.php

A great opportunity for Tiger, his cause, his adoring kids, the First Tee program and the idea of changing the image that golf courses have on the environment.

[David Kelly]

Tom H.,

"First they came for Sharp Park and I didn't say anything because I liked Lincoln Park..."

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I voted to keep it a golf course.
Huckaby have you decided or voted?
If anybody knows of a manager at the public course nearby, they usually, or should have, a good pile of e-mails in their data base.  Encourage to them link this to their golfers.
Once environmental groups link this the votes for closing the course will increase.

[Forrest Richardson]

I think it may be wise for a grass roots effort to see about placing some type of historic designation on the course — Kevin Rich wrote the following in an article he prepared for Paul Daley last year:

"Golf courses have rarely been recognised as historic sites in America. Of the more than 15,000 golf courses throughout the country, less than fifty are currently listed on the National Register of Historic places (NRHP). Of these, only a handful might be recognisable to the general public: Olympia Fields; Baltusrol; Pinehurst; Oakmont; and Merion. Of the five founding clubs that formed the United States Golf Association (USGA), only one, Shinnecock Hills, is designated as an historic place with the National register. These numbers are astounding when one considers the number of historically significant golf courses built since the late 1800s."

I believe our estimate to right a majority of the wrongs at Sharp was in the $4-5 million range for golf course areas, not including the clubhouse. I am confident that in today's marketplace, you would be able to do a lot with even $3-4 million.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I think it may be wise for a grass roots effort to see about placing some type of historic designation on the course — Kevin Rich wrote the following in an article he prepared for Paul Daley last year:

"Golf courses have rarely been recognised as historic sites in America. Of the more than 15,000 golf courses throughout the country, less than fifty are currently listed on the National Register of Historic places (NRHP). Of these, only a handful might be recognisable to the general public: Olympia Fields; Baltusrol; Pinehurst; Oakmont; and Merion. Of the five founding clubs that formed the United States Golf Association (USGA), only one, Shinnecock Hills, is designated as an historic place with the National register. These numbers are astounding when one considers the number of historically significant golf courses built since the late 1800s."

I believe our estimate to right a majority of the wrongs at Sharp was in the $4-5 million range for golf course areas, not including the clubhouse. I am confident that in today's marketplace, you would be able to do a lot with even $3-4 million.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I think it may be wise for a grass roots effort to see about placing some type of historic designation on the course — Kevin Rich wrote the following in an article he prepared for Paul Daley last year:

"Golf courses have rarely been recognised as historic sites in America. Of the more than 15,000 golf courses throughout the country, less than fifty are currently listed on the National Register of Historic places (NRHP). Of these, only a handful might be recognisable to the general public: Olympia Fields; Baltusrol; Pinehurst; Oakmont; and Merion. Of the five founding clubs that formed the United States Golf Association (USGA), only one, Shinnecock Hills, is designated as an historic place with the National register. These numbers are astounding when one considers the number of historically significant golf courses built since the late 1800s."

Or less

I believe our estimate to right a majority of the wrongs at Sharp was in the $4-5 million range for golf course areas, not including the clubhouse. I am confident that in today's marketplace, you would be able to do a lot with even $3-4 million.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I think it may be wise for a grass roots effort to see about placing some type of historic designation on the course — Kevin Rich wrote the following in an article he prepared for Paul Daley last year:

"Golf courses have rarely been recognised as historic sites in America. Of the more than 15,000 golf courses throughout the country, less than fifty are currently listed on the National Register of Historic places (NRHP). Of these, only a handful might be recognisable to the general public: Olympia Fields; Baltusrol; Pinehurst; Oakmont; and Merion. Of the five founding clubs that formed the United States Golf Association (USGA), only one, Shinnecock Hills, is designated as an historic place with the National register. These numbers are astounding when one considers the number of historically significant golf courses built since the late 1800s."

Or less

I believe our estimate to right a majority of the wrongs at Sharp was in the $4-5 million range for golf course areas, not including the clubhouse. I am confident that in today's marketplace, you would be able to do a lot with even $3-4 million.

Or less.......... is what I meant to say two posts earlier.
Sorry.

[John Keenan]

Lynn

If you are looking for a private group to manage Sharps Park I am sure the
group that runs Gleneagles also a muni in SF would do a great job. I also think they are close enough to City politics to be effective

John 

[Patrick Kiser]

Kalen,

Boy you've got much more faith than I do in that prospect.

I'll say it right out: that will never happen.

What's more likely to happen if Sharp goes is Lincoln will follow right behind it.

Smelling a trend of turning courses into parks and getting their way ... the other groups will push even harder to turn Lincoln over as well for their purposes.  Everyone's dying to get their hands on the Lincoln prime real estate.  The argument will be "see what was done for Sharp and how great it is now" and they'll want to do the same to Lincoln.

I'm just going to try and enjoy it while I can before both are gone.

And if all this means Lincoln Park gets those resources to get it back in shape and keep it that way, then I would say its a no brainer to unplug Sharp Park from the life support machine.

[Kalen Braley]

Patrick,

I must admit, a dangerous precedent could be set.  But if something contractual was created to not only ensure LPs existance going forward but that it would also be maintained and taken care of as it should be, then that would be the way to go. 

[Tom Huckaby]

David/Lynn:

My take here is just based on what seems to be inevitable:  that some cuts will be made.  If it is indeed inevitable and they have to cut somewhere, then let it be Sharp instead of Lincoln.   Lincoln is a far better golf course as is, and could be made spectacular without huge amount of sums put into it.  That's it.

In terms of an on-line vote, hell yes I'll vote for keeping Sharp as a golf course, though.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Kalen,

Boy you've got much more faith than I do in that prospect.

I'll say it right out: that will never happen.

What's more likely to happen if Sharp goes is Lincoln will follow right behind it.

Smelling a trend of turning courses into parks and getting their way ... the other groups will push even harder to turn Lincoln over as well for their purposes.  Everyone's dying to get their hands on the Lincoln prime real estate.  The argument will be "see what was done for Sharp and how great it is now" and they'll want to do the same to Lincoln.

I'm just going to try and enjoy it while I can before both are gone.

And if all this means Lincoln Park gets those resources to get it back in shape and keep it that way, then I would say its a no brainer to unplug Sharp Park from the life support machine.

I'm with Patrick.  Once that enviro crowd gets a taste of the blood of victory, they'll want more.  I believe a lot of references to Audubon rating of golf courses and peaceful coexistence through organics and wetland preservation, the better the chance of saving Sharp Park.

IF anybody can be found to put money into it.  It does seem that the best possible outcome would be for the City of Pacifica to take over the course within its city limits and move on.  Not knowing Pacifica's union labor situtation in-house, it's hard to say what their maintenance costs would be.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

David/Lynn:

My take here is just based on what seems to be inevitable:  that some cuts will be made.  If it is indeed inevitable and they have to cut somewhere, then let it be Sharp instead of Lincoln.   Lincoln is a far better golf course as is, and could be made spectacular without huge amount of sums put into it.  That's it.

In terms of an on-line vote, hell yes I'll vote for keeping Sharp as a golf course, though.

TH

Good job Tom

[Tim Leahy]

On the left hand column of this article is a poll asking if the property should stay as a golf course.  So far the vote is very close, 51% to 49%.

Please take the time to vote.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/08/BA9716SDVJ.DTL&type=green

It's up to 50/50 get your votes in! 

Also, the President's Cup is coming to SF in October, this is the time to get the whole golf community behind saving this golf course. Somebody should send Tiger a letter, he will be at the President's Cup and his word counts for something!

It is still 50/50

Get your votes in!

[Tom Huckaby]

Note I tried to Chicago vote - that is vote early and often - but the system prevents that.  Rats.

BTW don't hold your breath for Tiger Woods to get involved, as nice as that might be.

TH

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