Trustworthy rankings - what are yours?

[Scott Warren]

After the carnage of the past week's GD USA and Int'l list releases, many people have commented that lists of this type are by no means a true representation of quality. It has been an eye-opener for me, as someone who chose courses at times based on rankings, to see how certain "authoritative" lists can vary so wildly from others.

But at the same time, there are still references to certain lists being better than others. Other Aussies have previously recommended the Golf Australia Magazine top 50 list over the Australian Golf Digest top 100, and I noticed this morning Mark Chaplin put Golf World UK's British list forward as one that was a decent reference point for where certain courses stand. Others like to use top100golfcourses.com...

So what is your list that you stand by or refer to for a given country/region or the world? (the obvious answer for those who have played enough courses is "my own"). Or is comparing links with parkland, heathland and desert courses etc like comparing classical music with pop, rock, country and rap to make a list of the best musiicians across all genres (ie. a process best avoided)?

cheers,
Scott

[Adrian_Stiff]

Golf World is the most accurate in my opinion for GB & Ireland. I did a ranking system myself by collating many sets of rankings, together with other information that 'should' signify better or worse courses, of course you could question the criteria I used which formed part of the statistics.
I gave points for courses that had a high green fee;
I gave various points for courses that had staged tour events of various levels;
I gave various points for courses that had staged county championships, EGU championships, LGU championships, R & A events;
I gave points for courses above 7000 yards.

Before you holler... the statistics were amazingly close to the Golf World Rankings and whilst theoretially the price ofa green fee should not come into it the more expensive ones were better, equally the longer courses were generally the better ones.

A 5800 yard course with a low green fee that had never staged anything never featured in the top 1000 GB &  I. The Top 100 were similar to Golf Worlds (say 90 courses were in both sets), I was able to produce quite an accurate top 1000 IMO.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Adrian

Have you seen the book Golf World produced two or three years ago featuring the Top 1000 courses in GB&I?  The book doesn't seek to rank from 1 to 1000 rather it gives courses a rating on a 1* to 5* system (5* being the highest mark).  From recollection it doesn't explain the criteria for the ratings but I'll dig it out tonight and have a look.

I did a ranking system myself a while ago, based on a compilation of various GB&I rankings from Golf World, Golf Monthly, Top100golfcourses.com and various other publications.   There is a fair bit of disparity between the various individual rankings but these tended to even out if you put courses into top ten, 11 - 25, 26 -50 etc rather than trying to assign an individual ranking to each course.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

Have you seen the book Golf World produced two or three years ago featuring the Top 1000 courses in GB&I?  The book doesn't seek to rank from 1 to 1000 rather it gives courses a rating on a 1* to 5* system (5* being the highest mark).  From recollection it doesn't explain the criteria for the ratings but I'll dig it out tonight and have a look.

I did a ranking system myself a while ago, based on a compilation of various GB&I rankings from Golf World, Golf Monthly, Top100golfcourses.com and various other publications.   There is a fair bit of disparity between the various individual rankings but these tended to even out if you put courses into top ten, 11 - 25, 26 -50 etc rather than trying to assign an individual ranking to each course.

Andrew- Yes I have that book and to be honest its fairly innacurrate beyond say 250. Some glaring misses and some strange inclusions in my opinion. What I looked at was my home county it has 43 clubs I think, I put the courses into what I thought was a fair order from 1-43, I got about 5 others to look at the list and its was generally the same, most had played the top 30, some had not played or could not comment on the bottom 20. One idea I had was to get people (UK) to rate the courses in their county, the more rates you get the more accurate the poll. My systems accuracy produced a rating for Staffordshire although I have not played many courses myself, Our Pro was from that area and he said the list was fairly accurate (ie he would swap 8 with 9 and 13 with 12). Whats your county, it would be an interesting excercise to see how closely you agreed.

[Andrew Mitchell]

I'm from Yorkshire, the largest county in England and probably the one with the most courses   Have you got any ratings for Yorkshire?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Andrew- in 3 lots; ive not updated this for 2 years so some info could be out
north yorks
GANTON
FULFORD
HARROGATE
PANNAL
YORK
SCARBOROUGH NORTH CLIFF
SCARBOROUGH SOUTH CLIFF
MALTON & NORTON
CATTERICK
OAKDALE
CLEVELAND
SELBY
KNARESBOROUGH
HUNLEY HALL
MIDDLESBOROUGH
ROMANBY
RUDDING PARK
KIRKBYMOORSIDE
COCKSFORD
FOREST PARK
TEESIDE
EASINGWOLD
ALDWARK MANOR
FILEY
SKIPTON
SALTBURN
BEDALE
THE OAKS
THIRSK & NORTH ALLERTON
WHITBY
WILTON
FOREST OF GALTRES
PIKE HILLS
RICHMOND
RIPON CITY
SCARTHINGWELL
HEWORTH
MIDDLESBOROUGH MUNICIPAL
MARSHAM
south yorks
LINDRICK
ROTHERHAM
HALLAMSHIRE
HALLOWES
DONCASTER
HILLSBOROUGH
SITWELL PARK
ABBEYDALE
WORTLEY
TANKERSLEY PARK
SILKSTONE
WHEATLEY
DORE & TOTLEY
RENISHAW PARK
WATH
HICKLETON
LEES HALL
STOCKSBRIDGE & DISTRICT
PHOENIX
DONCASTER TOWN MOOR
ROBIN HOOD
ROUNDWOOD
BAWTRY
ROTHER VALEY GOLF CENTRE
SANDHILL
BARNSLEY
CROOKHILL PARK
GRANGE PARK
TINSLEY PARK
BEAUCHIEF
BIRLEY WOOD
THORNE
CONCORD PARK
OWSTON PARK
SHEFFIELD TRANSPORT
WOMBWELL HILLIES
west yorks
ALWOODLEY
MOORTOWN
MOOR ALLERTON
SAND MOOR
ILKLEY
SCARCROFT
NORTHCLIFFE
HUDDERSFIELD
SHIPLEY
GARFORTH
KEIGHLEY
WAKEFIELD
HALIFAX
HEADINGLEY
WOODSOME HALL
BINGLEY ST IVES
WILLOW VALLEY
LOW LAITHES
PONTEFRACT & DISTRICT
COOKRIDGE HALL
DEWSBURY DISTRICT
LEEDS GOLF CENTRE
THE MANOR
HOLLINS HALL
OTLEY
LEEDS
WEST BOWLING
HALIFAX BRADLEY HALL
MID YORKSHIRE
OULTON PARK
WATERTON PARK
HOWLEY HALL
WETHERBY
HORSFORTH
CLECKHEATON & DISTRICT
HALIFAX WEST END
BRADFORD
MELTHAM
NORMANTON
CITY OF WAKEFIELD
WEST BRADFORD
WOODHALL HILLS
BRANSHAW
OUTLANE
BRACKEN GHYLL
CROSLAND HEATH
SOUTH LEEDS
BAILDON
HANGING HEATON
LIGHTCLIFFE
MIDDLETON PARK
RIDDLESTON
SILSDEN
CROW NEST PARK
TODMORDEN
WOOLLEY PARK
PONTEFRACT PARK
BRADLEY PARK
BEN RHYDDING
CALVERLEY
LOFTHOUSE HILL
TEMPLE NEWSAM (LADY DOROTHY WOOD)
TEMPLE NEWSAM (LORD IRWIN)
RAWDON
ELLAND
FULNECK
QUEENSBURY
PAINTHORPE HOUSE
RYBURN
KIRK ELLA
EAST BRIERLEY
LONGLEY PARK
CLAYTON
FARDEW
GOTTS PARK
HEADLEY
BAGDEN HALL HOTEL
BRADFORD MOOR
HEBDEN BRIDGE
PHOENIX PARK
MARSDEN
ROUNDHAY
FERRYBRIDGE 'C'
SOUTH BRADFORD
CASTLEFIELDS
WHITWOOD

[Tony_Muldoon]

Scott can you rank things exactly in a list?

 You might get
...
4 Cox's Apple
5 Conference Pear
...


It's similarly fruitless trying to produce a scale by sorting quality by shelves e.g. The Richelin Scale.  However you could do a lot worse than checking out:


A) The Confidential Guide- although I sometimes fail to see the difference between a 6 and an 8 - but that’s for each of us to decide.

I thought I’d look up three courses I know you've played.
Deal            6
Princes        5 
Addington   7 Gourmet’s Choice

B) The Peugeot Golf Guide.  Subtitled Europe's top 1000 courses.  They rank courses out of a max score of 20 across Europe and only those scoring 14 and (mostly) above get in.  It's a little more generous than Doak (i.e. just doubling the Doak score would often come up more than two points lower than their score for top courses) but I find it amazingly reliable considering it's the work of many people. Without it I'd never have heard of Cardigan, a real sleeper with views equal to anywhere. Recommended. 

Deal           17
Prince's      14
Addington   Not in my 2004 edition! I take it all back. The Peugeot Guide is a piece of crap and you can't trust anyone!

"Who are you going to believe? Me or your own eyes?"  Groucho Marx.

[Mark_F]

Any list made by Ross Perrett has to be considered the holy grail of rankings.

[Mark Pearce]

If Moor Allerton is the third best course in West Yorks then I'm a baboon.

[Scott Warren]

Thanks Tony for sharing those examples.

Doesn't the length of time since Tom saw some of the courses in the Confidential Guide make it somewhat hit-and-miss as a source of ranking, or even recommending what to play?

A lot can go wrong, or right, in 10 or 15 years. I've not read it, so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure TD himself said there are courses in there he hasn't seen since the 1980s.

[Adrian_Stiff]

If Moor Allerton is the third best course in West Yorks then I'm a baboon.

Mark- My statistics show not many great courses in West Yorks and a huge gap between the top 4. Moor Allerton & Sand Moor were very close and by two single methods Sand Moor was 3 and Moor Allerton was 4. Is Moor Allerton miles out? Am I missing some great courses in West Yorks? How about the others is it a fair reflection with Moor Allerton just too highly rated or are the ratngs haywire?

[Norbert P]

 I trust the GCAtlas agents who don't trust ranking lists.

[Andrew Mitchell]

If Moor Allerton is the third best course in West Yorks then I'm a baboon.

Mark- My statistics show not many great courses in West Yorks and a huge gap between the top 4. Moor Allerton & Sand Moor were very close and by two single methods Sand Moor was 3 and Moor Allerton was 4. Is Moor Allerton miles out? Am I missing some great courses in West Yorks? How about the others is it a fair reflection with Moor Allerton just too highly rated or are the ratngs haywire?

Adrian
Sorry I've not come back sooner since you posted the Yorkshire rankings at my request but work has got in the way for the last couple of days

I would confirm that Mark Pearce is NOT a baboon as IMHO Moor Allerton is nowhere near the 3rd best course in West Yorkshire.  I assume that the hype of it being one of the few RTJ Snr courses in the UK elevates its standing.  For my money Sand Moor, Ilkley and Huddersfield (Fixby) and probably a few more would surpass it in the standings.

Having said that  I like a ranking list that puts my home course as the 7th in West Yorks

I've played nowhere near all the courses on your lists but the one thing that strikes me is that in each of your three lists there are a couple of courses at the top that stand out head and shoulders above the rest (i.e Ganton & Fulford in North Yorks, Lindrick in South Yorks, Alwoodley & Moortown in West Yorks).  There is then a large secondary tier of courses which you would not necessary travel for miles to play but they offer a good day's golf if you are in the area.

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott,

If you want to borrow a CD for a while you are welcome to mine. It'll cost you a pint!

Mark

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

I really didn't like Moor Allerton.  I don't know the Yorkshire courses terribly well but it strikes me that Alwoodley is clearly better than Moortown (at least in its modern incarnation) which is still a good course.  Moor Allerton is not close to Moortown in quality and I can't believe that courses such as Sand Moor aren't significantly better.  If Moor Allerton was in Northumberland it still wouldn't be the third best course in the county and Northumberland isn't as strong a golfing county as West Yorks.

[Scott Warren]

If you want to borrow a CD for a while you are welcome to mine. It'll cost you a pint!

Thanks Mark, we should arrange another beer in London soon and maybe try to get a few other GCAers along for a chat. Then I can buy you that pint!

Otherwise, I'll probably catch you at Deal on the 25th for the foursomes.

[Jamie Barber]

I like reading these guides to get an indication of good courses to play - but I certainly wouldn't take *any* of them as an authoritative list.

To give a not-too-controversial example, how can Nefyn outrank Ardglass (the former creeps into GW top 100 in 2008, the latter doesn't)?

For a more controversial example, County Down and TOC are usually closely ranked. Would I make a special trip to play County Down? Absolutely. Would I make a special trip to play TOC? No way.

At the end of the day you pay your money and play the courses you like (hence for me Prince's above Deal )

[Mark Pearce]

Would I make a special trip to play TOC? No way.

You should expect a visit from the GCA police any time now.

[Scott Warren]

The TOC hate has been strong the past few days. Maybe GCA posters have been inspired by the pros' new-found voice re: changes to ANGC.

[Jamie Barber]

I'd better lie low! I'm not a hater, it was fun to play but for me it's overrated.

[Adrian_Stiff]

For a more controversial example, County Down and TOC are usually closely ranked. Would I make a special trip to play County Down? Absolutely. Would I make a special trip to play TOC? No way.

At the end of the day you pay your money and play the courses you like (hence for me Prince's above Deal )

Jamie- That controversial example just highlights 'opinion' and how some like blondes, some dont. For many/most A SPECIAL TRIP to play TOC is the holy grail. Deal rates much higher than Princes in most rankings. You are ofcourse not right and your not wrong and we will all have ones we like and ones we dont and opinions are something that can never be argued with. The more opinion collated does strengthen the validity, though its unlikely it could ever be a totally objective ranking.

[Jamie Barber]

Very true. Hence my statement that I like reading these guides to get an indication of good courses to play but I wouldn't take *any* of them as authoritative (at least for me). Just because some else rates a course, doesn't mean I will.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Golf world UK or today’s golfer as it seems to be called seems to me to be a touch open centric.  With the last open venue and the next open venue both in the top 3.  I think Turnberry has jumped up a quite a few places just because it happens to be holding the open this year.

I also find a bit too many parkland courses in it for my liking, Loch Lomond in the top 10 and the new Gleneagles pga centenary in the top 100 somewhere as well.

Also St Mellion seems to have been added for no other reason than it will be hosting a European tour event, the same week as the PGA Championship.

[Mark Chaplin]

Jamie,

Meet you at the end of Deal pier tomorrow night with cutlasses, canx that I'll be the wrong side of a club dinner and kummel, I'd probably fall over board. We must have a game soon instead!

Mark

[Scott Warren]

Mark, you must defend Deal's honour.

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