Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?

[George Pazin]

I recall once reading an interview with Jack; the interviewer, knowing Jack's fondness for TOC, asked Jack if it was the toughest (or something to that effect). Jack said it wasn't so much tough, as awkward.

Fast forward to your generic PGA Tour event. With a few notable exceptions - Kapalua, Sawgrass, maybe a few others - the overwhelming majority of Tour events look like they could be played on driving ranges: flat stances everywhere.

Quick cut to your average links. It kills me that I haven't made it overseas, but the courses just appear so much less uniform. Even a course with modest elevation changes, such as TOC, appear to offer few opportunities for your basic flat stance, what's-my-yardage type of shot.

Augusta gets plenty of (deserved) attention for its speedy greens, but it seems the wonderful ups and downs and lefts and rights of the terrain are every bit as important in the interest it generates.

Whadaya think?

[Mark_Fine]

George,
Jack probably descibed TOC as awkard because you can't see much off the tee.  You have to play on memory (and with a good caddy).  It that regard it might be described as awkard but I don't really like the word. 
Mark

[JESII]

Mark,

I think "Awkward" can have a positive intent as opposed to just favoring ones own skills...how is it measurably different from "Quirk"?

[Pete_Pittock]

Synonyms: embarrassing, tricky, problematic, difficult, thorny, complex
Antonym: straightforward

Synonyms: uncomfortable, embarrassed, out of your depth, tongue-tied, self-conscious, discomfited, gauche, inept, discomforted, ill at ease, uneasy
Antonym: comfortable

Awkward is a good choice of words by Jack with this section of some
synonyms and antonyms of awkward.
 
Edit: this reply is an awkward reading.
 
 
  

[TEPaul]

George:

I think awkardness the way you (and Nicklaus) seem to be describing it----eg a good deal of lies that aren't flat can be very good for golf. I don't think it's necessarily a must for good architecture and golf but it is definitely a plus as it certainly does force golfers to be more creative with successful shot making. Less than flat lies in architecture I think are best when there are strategic ways that involve risks to play away from the more complex lies towards flatter or at least less complex ones.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

I think awkward was a good choice of words.  St. Andrews not only presents awkward lies and stances, but some awkward strategies, too ... fairways that narrow to nothing just where you would normally drive it, bunkers where you sometimes can't get a stance, etc.

Not every course in the UK is as undulating as St. Andrews ... the fairways at Lytham or Montrose or Carnoustie or even parts of Dornoch and Birkdale generally provide a level lie.

I think odd stances combined with wind raise the standard of shotmaking immeasurably.  I've been lucky to work on a bunch of pieces of ground which afforded similar opportunities.

[Garland Bayley]

Hey George,

Oakmont looks pretty awkward to me! Enjoy!

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Since you like the word, what courses of yours would like described as awkward?
Mark

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

The 18th at High Pointe is/was awkward, but not in a good way!

Barnbougle Dunes has a few awkward places on it, where there is no perfect answer to where to hit it ... the 8th hole most famously.  You can get some really fun stances there.

I think Ballyneal is also kind of awkward in spots, where you have to hit the ball to a certain point to get it to bounce down toward the flag ... but it's not obvious from the fairway where that point is.  I am sure that's one of the reasons it doesn't get more love from the GOLF DIGEST guys, and it's also one of the main reasons I love the course.

St. Andrews Beach had some awkward moments, too, and that did not bode so well for it, sadly.

Old Macdonald will have a couple of them, too.

[JESII]

Stonewall North...favorably awkward!

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Certain holes can be described as awkward and that is not necessarily a bad thing.  However, describing an entire course as awkward is in my opinion not all that flattering.  The word has too many negative connotations.  If for example, the first word out of Nicklaus's mouth when asked about Barnbougle Dunes was "awkward", I don't think you would think he was trying to flatter you  

TOC clearly has many holes that the first few times around seem awkward but the more you play it, the less awkward they become.
Mark

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

If Jack said Barnbougle Dunes was awkward, I would take it as a high compliment.  He doesn't try to flatter any fellow architect, including (especially?) me.

I am going to interview for a new job last week and will see if they'll let me build an awkward course like St. Andrews.  It's about time someone did.

[Anthony Gray]

 George,

  I love this topic. Very nice thinking. Billy Knight. Sam Ckancy. Clyde Vaughn.

  My favorite course in the world has Cruden Bay. The land can be considerd as awkward, but it allows for a wonderful variety asnd uniqueness of holes.

  Anthony

[Philippe Binette]

Akward sites... (whatever that means) bring or force creativity and therefore leads to great design.

For some reason, try to design a great golf course, or a great public space with a flat imaginary piece of land, no context or problems... it is almost impossible... because it's hard for a designer to know where to start when you have no where to start.

Great routings don't come from a flat piece of land with no obstacle... they comes from creative solutions from certain problems on the site... Think Crystal Downs, Merion

[Scott Henderson]

Some of the most interesting routings and most interesting holes I have ever played have been on some of the most awkward ground.  It would seem to me that difficult problems bring out the best in designer's imaginations.

[Adam Clayman]

There would appear to be different types of awkward courses. Since everyone has listed the positive examples of awkward, I'll call Bay Harbor a poorer form. I'd add Chaparel Pines as another with potential. Dismal too.

[Mark_Fine]

I think Jim Sullivan summed up my point about the use of the word awkward - he apparently felt compelled to add the word "favorably" because on its own, awkward has too many negative meanings.  Clumsy and tacky are a few that come to mind. 

Philippe,
I agree with you about obstacles.  The is no great course without great hazards.  However, flat is not necessarily bad.  Pinehurst #2 has about 4 feet of elevation change across the property.  Many many great courses have little elevation change.  If you want me to start listing them, I'd be happy to do so.  Do you know what the elevation change is on TOC?

When I think of awkward, I think of the 5th hole at Inniscrone in Philly.  Gil had his hands tied with that hole and had to insert a little drop shot par three down a steep hill.  After you play the hole, you have to walk back up the hill to the next tee.  It is not cool, not quirky, not clever, ..., it is very awkward and Gil would be the first one to tell you that. 

Yes awkward can have positive implications when it comes to golf but to answer George's original question, I would say NO - awkwardness is not necessarily a key element of great land/great golf.  What was awkward about the site for Sand Hills 
Mark

[Rich Goodale]

"Awkwardness" has nothing to do with terrain but everything to do with design.  It is the interaction of the golfer and the course which can be "awkward," and this feeling will be different depending on the golfer.  I would guess that to Jack Nicklaus, a course like Olympic, which requires several right-left shots off of left-right lies would be awkward, as would a course like St. Andrews which often requires low running shots and penalizes high floating ones.  On the other hand, players like Gib Papazian flourish under such conditions, but find it difficult to play courses which require long high fades to many greens.  What some find awkward, some find challenging.  Horses for courses, and all that.

The best courses make everybody feel awkward, but on different holes and on diferent days.  Variety and uncertainty are the key words.

[Mark_Fine]

Rich,
Variety and uncertainty are much better words. 

[TEPaul]

"I recall once reading an interview with Jack; the interviewer, knowing Jack's fondness for TOC, asked Jack if it was the toughest (or something to that effect). Jack said it wasn't so much tough, as awkward."


I, for one, surely don't want to get into a long discussion about what "awkward" means to anyone and everyone as the word relates to a golf course or architecture. However, I would submit that if we just use George Pazin's remark above from an interview with Nicklaus, it's pretty clear that Nicklaus did not intend his description of TOC as being awkward to mean something negative about TOC if in the same interview he proclaimed his fondness for TOC!! 

I say that assuming that Jack Nicklaus is not in the habit of regularly contradicting himself in his statements and interviews.   

[JESII]

Mark,

You may think Variety and Uncertainty are less offensive, but Awkward is much more descriptive.

I like Stonewall North, I'm not sure I love it, but I definitely like it alot and awkward is a better description of enough of the holes to call the course awkward...in a good way...

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Paul,
Agreed.

Jim,
I like the course as well and yes there are definitely holes at Stonewall North that could be described as awkward.  I guess it is just a matter of how we elect to define words and when I think of awkward I think of it in a negative context.  For example, I think the 18th hole at Stonewall North could be described that way.  To me it seems forced and awkward (not in a good way  )
 

[TEPaul]

As an example of what Nicklaus may mean by "awkward" (in a good and challenging way) with a golf course (in the context of its lies and such) how could one find a better example than ANGC's #13?

It's pretty much agreed that hole was designed to be basically a shortish "go/no go" par 5 where the theme was based on busting a good and long drive up onto a severely canting right to left fairway to try to filter the tee shot as low as possible to a fairway lie that even though very much canting right to left is less so than to the right of it. And from there the hole's basic strategic "hinge" is to make the decision to go/or not at a green (fronted by a creek) that is very much oriented left to right for a fade shot from a fairway right to left pulling/hooking lie.

What could get more "awkward" than that and in an apparent benefically challening way? 

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

I doubt if hitting a high fade was ever awkward to Jack in his prime, regardless of the slope of the lie.

Rich

[Pete_Pittock]

TEP,
I agree on the 13th at ANGC. No only is the tee shot awkward, but how difficult is the 2nd shot going for the green ( unless you rope hook the drive next to the creek). How much of a optical vortex was created by AM with the fairway shaping? Everything is telling you about a hook, but there are far more (as I recollect them) shots going right or short/right creek than miss the green left.