Golf Digest International Rankings

[Tom_Doak]

No comments so far about the ranking of the 100 Greatest Courses Outside the USA -- maybe because it's printed in type so small I could barely read it!

The top fifty here looked pretty much as most would expect.  The second fifty seem to include a lot of token choices from different countries.  They did not specify whether they are using the same scoring system for international courses that they do for the U.S. list ...

By far the most unusual aspect of these rankings is that they included not only The Old Course at St. Andrews ... and the new Castle Course ... but also the New Course AND the Jubilee Course at St. Andrews among the top 100!  Neither of the last two has ever had any support for the GOLF Magazine list, so it's weird how they all turned up here.

[Mark Bourgeois]

More red meat -- on a Friday during Lent no less!  I couldn't find an updated list online; is it just in the magazine?

[Rich Goodale]

Marco

Do the cut and paste from the below thread into your browser:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39257.35.html

Some food for thought in all that GD have done.  Some of it is "off-putting" as they say here in Ole Blimey, but all is worthy of discussion.

Tom

IMO the New Course is worthy of consideration for a GBI top 100 (and it has made it into those off and on).  Top 100 ROW, probably not.  I put it in the top 15-30 in Scotland, which is good enough golf for me.  As for the Jubilee, it has it's admirers, but they are off their heids!

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich

Are you sure that's the link?  What the heck, let's plow forward: I could see the New in a list somewhere.  Maybe "Most Gorseful"?

Mark

[Tommy Williamsen]

The international courses are rated the same way the course in the US are.

 
100 BEST COURSES OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES
° 1 Royal County Down G.C.
Newcastle, N. Ireland
° 2 St. Andrews Links (Old)
St. Andrews, Scotland
° 3 Muirfield Gullane, Scotland
° 4 Royal Portrush G.C.
(Dunluce)
Portrush, N. Ireland
° 5 Turnberry Resort (Ailsa)
Turnberry, Scotland
° 6 Royal Dornoch G.C.
(Championship)
Dornoch, Scotland
° 7 Ballybunion G.C. (Old)
Ballybunion, Ireland
° 8 Carnoustie G. Links
(Championship)
Carnoustie, Scotland
°
 9 New South Wales G.C. 
Sydney, Australia
° 10 Sunningdale G.C. (Old)
Sunningdale, England
° 11 Kingston Heath G.C.
Melbourne, Australia
° 12 Royal St. George’s G.C.
Sandwich, England
° 13 Cape Kidnappers 
Hawke’s Bay, New Zealand
° 14 Royal Birkdale G.C. 
Southport, England
° 15 Royal Troon G.C. (Old) 
Troon, Scotland
° 16 Lahinch G.C. (Old)   
Lahinch, Ireland
° 17 Royal Lytham
& St. Annes G.C.
Lytham St. Annes, England
° 18 Kingsbarns G. Links
St. Andrews, Scotland
° 19 Hirono G.C. 
Hyogo, Japan
° 20 Barnbougle Dunes
Bridport, Tasmania, Australia
° 21 Loch Lomond G.C.
Luss, Scotland
° 22 Royal Melbourne 
G.C. (West)
Melbourne, Australia
° 23 Woodhall Spa 
G.C. (Hotchkin)
Woodhall Spa, England
° 24 Cabo del Sol (Ocean) 
Los Cabos, Mexico
° 25 Kauri Cliffs
Northland, New Zealand
° 26 Royal Liverpool G.C. 
Hoylake, England
° 27 St. George’s G. & C.C.
Etobicoke, Ontario, Canada
° 28 G. de Morfontaine
Mortefontaine, France
° 29 Ganton G.C.
Ganton, England
° 30 Portmarnock G.C.
Portmarnock, Ireland
° 31 Kawana Hotel G. Cse. (Fuji)
Shizuoka, Japan
° 32 National G.C. of Canada
Woodbridge, Ontario, Canada
° 33 Casa de Campo 
(Teeth of the Dog) 
La Romana, Dominican Republic
° 34 Hamilton G. & C.C. 
Ancaster, Ontario, Canada
° 35 Beacon Hall G.C.
Aurora, Ontario, Canada
° 36 Walton Heath G.C. (Old)
Walton-on-the-Hill, England
° 37 Cruden Bay G.C.
Cruden Bay, Scotland
° 38 Capilano G. & C.C. 
West Vancouver, B.C., Canada
° 39 Machrihanish G.C.
Campbeltown, Scotland
° 40 North Berwick G.C. 
North Berwick, Scotland
° 41 The European Club 
Brittas Bay, Ireland
° 42 Highlands Links 
Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, Canada
° 43 Valderrama G.C. 
Sotogrande, Spain
° 44 Royal Porthcawl G.C.
Porthcawl, Wales
°
 45 Waterville G. Links
Waterville, Ireland
° 46 Punta Espada G.C. 
Cap Cana, Dominican Republic
° 47 Les Bordes
Beaugency, France
° 48 Royal Aberdeen 
G.C. (Balgownie)
Aberdeen, Scotland
° 49 Leopard Creek C.C. 
Malelane, South Africa
° 50 Swinley Forest G.C. 
Ascot, England
° 51 Redtail G. Cse. 
St. Thomas, Ontario, Canada
° 52 Banff Springs G.C. 
(Stanley Thompson)
Banff, Alberta, Canada
° 53 Four Seasons G.C.
at Peninsula Papagayo
Guanacaste, Costa Rica
° 54 Gary Player C.C.
Sun City, South Africa
° 55 St. Enodoc G.C. (Church)
Wadebridge, England
° 56 Mid Ocean Club
Tucker’s Town, Bermuda
° 57 Ellerston G.C.
Hunter Valley, Australia
° 58 Western Gailes G.C. 
Irvine, Scotland
° 59 Wentworth Club (West)
Virginia Water, England
° 60 Old Head G. Links 
Kinsale, Ireland
° 61 Royal Adelaide G.C. 
Adelaide, Australia
° 62 Carne G. Links
Belmullet, Ireland
° 63 St. Andrews Links (New)
St. Andrews, Scotland
° 64 The Club at Nine Bridges 
Jeju Island, South Korea
° 65 St. Andrews Links (Castle)
St. Andrews, Scotland
° 66 St. George’s Hill G.C.
Weybridge, England
° 67 Fancourt (Links) 
George, South Africa
° 68 Sheshan International G.C.
Shanghai, China
° 69 Prestwick G.C. 
Prestwick, Scotland
° 70 El Dorado G. & Beach Club 
Los Cabos, Mexico
° 71 Olivos G.C.
Buenos Aires, Argentina
° 72 Durban C.C.
Durban, South Africa
° 73 Rye G.C. (Old) 
Rye, England
° 74 Spring City 
G. & Lake Resort (Lake)
Kunming, China
° 75 Fox Harb’r Resort
Wallace, Nova Scotia, Canada
° 76 Metropolitan G.C.
Melbourne, Australia
° 77 Tralee G.C. 
Ardfert, Ireland
° 78 Devil’s Paintbrush
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
° 79 Vista Vallarta 
G.C. (Nicklaus) 
Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
° 80 Oarai G.C. 
Ibaraki, Japan
° 81 Royal Montreal G.C. (Blue)
Ile Bizard, Quebec, Canada
° 82 Kasumigaseki C.C. (East)
Saitama, Japan
° 83 G. de Sperone
Bonifacio, Corsica, France
° 84 The National 
G.C. (Moonah) 
Cape Schanck, Australia
° 85 G. de Moliets
Moliets, France
° 86 Hamburger G.C. 
Hamburg, Germany
° 87 Buenos Aires G.C. 
Bella Vista, Argentina
° 88 Queenwood G.C. 
Ottershaw, England
° 89 Limburg G. & C.C. 
Houthalen, Belgium
° 90 Jockey Club (Colorada) 
San Isidro, Buenos Aires, Argentina
° 91 Noordwijkse G.C.
Noordwijk, Netherlands
° 92 St. Andrews Links (Jubilee) 
St. Andrews, Scotland
° 93 Tokyo G.C. 
Saitama, Japan
° 94 Royal Zoute G.C. 
Knokke-Heist, Belgium
° 95 G. Santander 
Madrid, Spain
° 96 Monte Rei G. & C.C.
Tavira, Portugal
° 97 Emirates G.C. (Majlis) 
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
° 98 Kennemer G. & C.C.
Zandvoort, Netherlands
° 99 Santa Elena G.C. 
Santa Rosa, Philippines
° 100 G.C. Biella Le Betulle
Magnano, Biella, Italy
° Courses you’ve played

[Tom Birkert]

Hmmmmmmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Wentworth?! Ahead of St George's Hill and Prestwick?

I'm biased but Sunningdale New is leagues above Wentworth. In fact, the New was recently ranked higher than the Old in a UK publication for the first time, although that particular list was a waste of paper.

[Mike_Clayton]

NSW the best course in Australia?
Royal Melbourne West the 4th best?

Why do they even print this stuff when it is so patently incorrect by any measure?

[David Kelly]

What happened to Royal Mebourne?  4th best in Australia???

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

There is no way they have 40 votes on Barnbougle Dunes or Ellerston, to name two.  They probably don't have ten on Ellerston.  I am guessing they somehow incorporate their associated publications' rankings into these, but I don't know how they do it.

Just taking South Africa as one example, these rankings [Leopard Creek #1, then Gary Player CC, Fancourt, Durban #4, no Humewood] are COMPLETELY at odds with the reports from Ran, Ben & the group that was just there.

There are about ten courses toward the bottom of the list which seem out of place, at least based on anything I've ever heard.  Has anyone here ever played any of the following?  Are they worthy of a list like this?

G de Moliets, France
Shensan International, China
Olivos, Argentina
Fox Harbor, Canada
Oarai, Japan
Limburg, Belgium
Monte Rei, Portugal
Vista Vallarta (Nicklaus), Mexico
Santa Elena, Philippines

[Greg Tallman]

Tommy:

There is no way they have 40 votes on Barnbougle Dunes or Ellerston, to name two.  They probably don't have ten on Ellerston.  I am guessing they somehow incorporate their associated publications' rankings into these, but I don't know how they do it.

Just taking South Africa as one example, these rankings [Leopard Creek #1, then Gary Player CC, Fancourt, Durban #4, no Humewood] are COMPLETELY at odds with the reports from Ran, Ben & the group that was just there.

There are about ten courses toward the bottom of the list which seem out of place, at least based on anything I've ever heard.  Has anyone here ever played any of the following?  Are they worthy of a list like this?


Vista Vallarta (Nicklaus), Mexico

Not worthy. Decent enough but just that.... decent. Also El Dorado at #70 and Querencia not listed at all is a head scratcher. 

At least THIS list is not ranking half finished ungrassed courses!

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

Querencia wouldn't have gotten my vote, if I voted. 

The original Eldorado might have gotten my vote, but I haven't seen it since the changes ... but the changes must have taken a toll, no?  Your mention of it made it hard to understand whether you thought it should be higher or lower -- clever of you.

[Andrew Hastie]

I've played Limburg golf club and it's a nice golf course but top 100 in the world outside the U.S. "no".

If your in Belgium,  Knokke is a better choice.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I feel I have played enough courses on this list to mark it as the work of, well, "idiots" is the word that comes to mind -- Tommy W excluded of course!

I looked at the list in bunches of 5 and compared courses in each grouping relative to each other and / or relative to others in the list.

1-5 the Old is miles better than Turnberry almost any way you slice it.
6-10 have only played NSW in this grouping but the only list where I see it belonging in the bottom half of a top 10 is "Best Australian."
21-25 Kauri Cliffs in this position proves how completely idiotic Golf Digest's criteria are.  Completely idiotic -- somebody needs to go back and do one of two things: 1) take "greatest" out of the description and replace with some other word; 2) come up with a set of criteria that pushes this course waayy down.

If the inclusion of Kauri with RMW and Woodhall Spa elevates this list to farce, then the grouping of Woodhall Spa with RMW makes it simply a joke -- even as I accept that comparing RMW to Woodhall Spa in and of itself is something of a joke.  Chalk and cheese.

26-30 Hoylake, St. Gs and Ganton all are excellent, but if this shows anything it's that the panel played Ganton only once.  And that is no way to uncover Ganton's greatness.  Too bad Ganton's founders didn't have the foresight to install an ocean next or mountain range next door: they could have gotten their course into Golf Digest's Top 10 Non-US courses!  BTW, don't you just love that: "Non-US."  Like ROW is some kind of ghetto.

And so on.  This is getting tiresome -- but I must call out two additional groupings:

71-75 I liked Durban but Rye by any measure is a better round of golf.  Really scratching my head over this one -- I honestly can't see how a low handicapper, applying GD's stupid criteria, would put Durban anywhere close to Rye, never mind ahead.  Perhaps most raters travel to England only during summer?

91-95 granted we're at the bottom, but Noordwijkse for me was a hugely disappointing course, the poster child in all my travels for an opportunity lost.  A system that puts Noordwijkse ahead of Kennemer I feel is just wrong.  But again, we're down at the bottom so maybe the question is whether either belong on the list. (I am not qualified to judge.)

That's Golf Digest, then.  They should stick to rating US courses and leave the "non US" stuff to people with a clue.

Oh, here's a thought: why not just use the GD Australia rankings of Australian courses.  At least that group got the order largely right.  The mag also published the top-10 lists of noted experts -- a great and informative read.

Mark

[Brian Phillips]

I have to agree with Mark.  That Golf Digest even bothers to even try to create a list like just makes a mockery of the magazine.  It just shows the lack effort they put into the damn list.

Am I right in that there is no Swedish course in the list? No Falsterbo, Halmstad or Barsebeck...?

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

Querencia wouldn't have gotten my vote, if I voted. 

The original Eldorado might have gotten my vote, but I haven't seen it since the changes ... but the changes must have taken a toll, no?  Your mention of it made it hard to understand whether you thought it should be higher or lower -- clever of you.

Only meant to compare the two, Querencia and Dorado, and my personal view is Querencia is the better golf course. The changes at Dorado destroyed it from a routing standpoint and that is saying something considering the awkwardness of the original routing. The ocean holes that were sacrificed were never my favorites there anyway and while the remaining golf is quite good and nice piece of land Querencia is a better overall experience and both are way ahead of Vista Vallarta.

If either ever get open I would expect Diamante and Chileno Bay to crack this list with Diamante having a legit shot at GOLF's list as well.

Oh yeah there is this course up the road... Bahia de los something or other that may merit some consideration.    How is that turining out? Particularly the "boring" holes 3-5/6... perfectly sequenced for the less spectacular holes on the course. I'm really curious to see how #16 turned out as it seemed awfully funky to me though 10-15 were very cool (loved 11).

May take a trip to La Paz soon to see Hills course that is now open and may call Steve to sneak another peek at BDLS.

[Andrew Summerell]

I must say I’m getting sick of buying into the controversy of these lists. It’s just the opinion of a bunch of people, some of whom know what they are talking about & some don’t.

Even the fact that they feel a list of the best courses OUTSIDE the United States is needed reeks of arrogance. If they need to list courses outside the U.S., why don’t they list them by country (or area).

[henrye]

I'm with you Greg on the ElDorado / Querencia compare, although neither are worthy of the list.  BTW, neither is another Mexican course, Vista Vallarta.

[Greg Tallman]

I'm with you Greg on the ElDorado / Querencia compare, although neither are worthy of the list.  BTW, neither is another Mexican course, Vista Vallarta.

Henry,

As noted above I wholeheartedly agree regarding Vista Vallarta. With Querencia and Dorado I don't know that you could flatly say they do not belong... if not they certainly cannot be too far from appearing on the list.

The biggest issue I have with Querencia are the 7th and 9th holes.

#7 is a 340ish yard downhill par 4 that really does not entice you  to go for it but rather hit a 3-5 iron from the tee setting up a wedge. More could have been done in this corridor as the land itslef lends itself to a risk reward type setup with the fall off into the canyon left.

#9 is just plain goofy to me... hit it 300 down the middle and you are just as well to putt your next one down the slope ending up on a shelf about 120 yards out... if you go through the shelf the ball rolls out to say 60 yards leaving an awkward pitch... I literally hit a "putt" with a fairway wood for my second a couple of weeks ago... never left the ground and rolled maybe 180 yards.

Apart from those holes I enjoy the course and think there are several really goof holes. 

[Robin Doodson]

Barnbougle ahead of Royal Melbourne. that's huge. Might be time to send the Oz open down to tassie. The reputation of the golf course might be what finally draws some big names down under.

Am heading down to Barnbougle in July. Can't wait.

robin

[Andrew Summerell]

Am heading down to Barnbougle in July. Can't wait.

You may experience some tough weather down there in July.

[Robin Doodson]

Am heading down to Barnbougle in July. Can't wait.

You may experience some tough weather down there in July.

that's ok. i was born and raised in scotland so i'm actually looking forward to it. i'm hoping it gives me an advantage in the australian superintendents championships.

[Tom_Doak]

The Australian superintendents' championships are at Barnbougle?  That's cool.

It may belong at #20 outside the USA, but the only reason it's ranked ahead of Royal Melbourne (West) is because most of the rest of this list is whacked.

[Michiel Teeling]

Tommy:

There is no way they have 40 votes on Barnbougle Dunes or Ellerston, to name two.  They probably don't have ten on Ellerston.  I am guessing they somehow incorporate their associated publications' rankings into these, but I don't know how they do it.

Just taking South Africa as one example, these rankings [Leopard Creek #1, then Gary Player CC, Fancourt, Durban #4, no Humewood] are COMPLETELY at odds with the reports from Ran, Ben & the group that was just there.

There are about ten courses toward the bottom of the list which seem out of place, at least based on anything I've ever heard.  Has anyone here ever played any of the following?  Are they worthy of a list like this?

G de Moliets, France
Shensan International, China
Olivos, Argentina
Fox Harbor, Canada
Oarai, Japan
Limburg, Belgium
Monte Rei, Portugal
Vista Vallarta (Nicklaus), Mexico
Santa Elena, Philippines

I played Limburg GC (Houthalen) and it's a decent course but definitly not top 100 outside US. In my opinion there are dozens of heathland courses like Limburg in UK and probably those are better.

Nice to see a classic like Kennemer in the list !

[Robin Doodson]

The Australian superintendents' championships are at Barnbougle?  That's cool.

It may belong at #20 outside the USA, but the only reason it's ranked ahead of Royal Melbourne (West) is because most of the rest of this list is whacked.

Sorry Tom, official Super's championships is at Royal Hobart but there is a delegation of about 40 supers going to Barnbougle prior to our annual conference in Tassie. BD is the main reason that we are all going. Any tips for me. (other than dress warm).

robin

[Brian Phillips]

The Australian superintendents' championships are at Barnbougle?  That's cool.

It may belong at #20 outside the USA, but the only reason it's ranked ahead of Royal Melbourne (West) is because most of the rest of this list is whacked.

Sorry Tom, official Super's championships is at Royal Hobart but there is a delegation of about 40 supers going to Barnbougle prior to our annual conference in Tassie. BD is the main reason that we are all going. Any tips for me. (other than dress warm).

robin

Robin,

My advice would be to try to convince Tom to meet you guys down there so he could give a talk to you about the design.

Now that is icing on the cake.

Brian

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