[Dub_ONeill]

While men and women in the same foursome seem to be able play separate tees without much complaint or tension, is this the case when the guys play?  Do men ever play comfortably from different tees in the same foursome?  Isn't it true that the foursome always settles on one set of tees and either the single digit guys think they are missing  seeing all the course, or the mid and high handicappers feel like they are overmatched at the outset by being dragged to the back?  Does course design make it easier to please everyone?  Are there particular courses where everyone of varying handicaps still feels content playing from either tees?  Is this a criterion that identifies the courses with the best strategic values?

[A_Clay_Man]

There should be no problem playing different tees.

Here at Pinon Hills, it is a constant happening. With all the diverse abilities wanting to play an affordable great course, there is no stigma associated with playing a differsnt set of tees.

The marshall/starter isn't at all adverse to going up to a player or group in the fairway and suggesting a better pace or a shorter tee.

[Dan Kelly]

Dub O' --

You ask: "Do men ever play comfortably from different tees in the same foursome?"

Answer: Yes. Many times.

The guy or guys at the back tees (that's where I am, though sometimes I shouldn't be  ) should LOUDLY encourage his or their companions to play whichever tees they'll most enjoy. And when it becomes apparent, during the round, that those companions have chosen tees too far back, the guy or guys at the back tees should GENTLY BUT UNMISTAKABLY encourage those companions to move forward for the remainder of the round.

Is there anything less fun than playing too hard a course for one's abilities? Yes, there is: It's WATCHING someone else play too hard a course for that someone else's abilities.

You ask: "Does course design make it easier to please everyone?"

I'll address one small aspect of that: Smaller tees at an angle to the fairway make it easier (and quicker) for everyone to play the appropriate tees than long, runway-type tees.  

[Dub_ONeill]

Dan K.
I am interested in your view as a guy at the back tees on the other aspect of this.  If, in order to make the better ball match your playing companions whine about you moving up a set of tees, does this leave you feeling like you are missing the course and, if so, is this true regardless of the course, or are there some places that it really does not matter whether you are playing the 7000 yard course versus the 6700 yard course?

[Craig Van Egmond]

In my experience I have no problems playing different tee boxes when playing with others, although I have played with people who do.  I have a tendancy to go with where the group wants to go as long as its not the way backs.

Yesterday our foursome consisted of 2 single digit handicaps, one 11 and a 26.  We all played from the blue tees at about 6500 or so yards.  It was obvious to me from the first tee that the 26 handicapper should play from the whites and that it would be a more enjoyable experience for him.  On about the 16th hole, he decided that maybe playing the blues was not a good idea.

I have teamed up with people who insist on playing the back tees who have no business being there.

[John_McMillan]

If the purpose of the round is to enjoy golf, it usually easier to split a group to different tees.  A common reason for being on a golf course invovles business relationships - in which case splitting the group becomes harder.  As a consultant, I've been amused to watch less senior individuals in a corporation walk to the back tees to get in their "face time" with the single-digit handicap VP.  In those situations, I think it's up to the better player to recognize what's going on, and suggest the group play off a different set of tees.  Actually, that might be a good way for recruiters to test "people skills" - because I think there are a lot who would be oblivious to what's going on.

[Bob_Huntley]

I have always thought that if you can't shoot even par from the whites why play the blues.

[David Wigler]

Dub,

Whether it is because of age or ego, I have a very hard time playing from easier tees than my playing partners do.  Fortunately for me, I am often the one who is pulling my partners back to a tee where they may be uncomfortable.  

Two stories to illustrate.  At Barona, we walked up to the Par 3 1/2 on the front.  We were playing the Tips.  At 250 yards, I felt that we lost the options Todd wanted to put into the hole.  Keith and I decided to move up to the 205-yard tee to put more options in play and make the hole more interesting.  We were greeted with comments like "Do not trip on your dress on the walk up" by two other GCA'ers who will go nameless.  Clearly, they were just teasing, but the stigma exists.  Second example.  I just got back from a trip to Palm Springs with Shooter.  He is a +2 and clearly better than me.  The Norman Course and the back nine of the Palms were both more than my game could handle from the tips.  I never went up on the Palms and it took until the 13th hole until I stuck my tail between my legs and moved up a box on the Norman.  Shooter is far too nice to have picked on me, but I did not want to seem like a wuss.  In retrospect, I think I will try to be more cognizant of where I am dragging my playing partners.

[Dub_ONeill]

David,
You raise another point about choosing tees.  How often in a round do you mix and match tee boxes by moving between the blues on one hole and the whites on other holes depending on things like carry off the tee or second shot carries.  I suppose this plays havoc with figuring course ratings and handicap records.  I know Cuscowilla has a mixed tee course set out on the card.  What other places that do the same?  Double Eagle solves the problem by having no tee markers and simply letting you pick where you want to play from on each hole, although in my limited experience there the group usually settles on at least one set of tee boxes.

[JohnV]

Craig, you definitely have never had a problem with this and I hope I'm not one of those you meant when you said had no business being there.  

I haven't noticed a large stigma in playing different tees since I've been playing at Pajaro.  Yesterday I joined a group on the 3rd hole who were playing the whites.  When they asked if I wanted to join, I said that I was playing the blues, but they didn't mind.  Two of the 3 joined me on the blues starting on #4.  One had been on the whites because he felt he should play with the others (including his father), he had no problem with the blues.  The other guy was a 24 handicap and probably should have stuck to the whites, althougth it doesn't make much of a difference at Pajaro.

Bob, if the ability to shoot par was the deciding factor, I'd probably be up at the reds.

I think that if you can't reach the par 4s comfortably in two shots you should always move up.

At the NCGA Team championship I played this week they had us on the whites at Spyglass and Poppy Hills.  It meant that every par 5 was reachable, no par 4s at Spyglass were over 400 yards and almost none at Poppy.  Seemed kind of short, but we still struggled so I guess it was ok.

[ed_getka]

I agree with Dan. I generally play tees a little further back depending on how much roll I think I'll be getting. At Barona I played the back tees because it plays F&F, so that 7,000 plays like 6,600. I make a point of encouraging the people I get paired with to play the tees that fit their game and not to worry about accomodating me.

As far as shooting even par, they don't make tees that allow my poor drives to end up making par possible except when I am scrambling very well.

On a day that I'm driving particularly poorly I should probably change tees mid-round after considering this thread.

[A_Clay_Man]

John V- One of the tricks the PB co. has done is to add the new gold tees. They were formerly the whites but due to the state of the game and RJ's mandate to pick up the pace the white tees are now much shorter than designed.

[Billy F.]

One course which has tried to change the attitude is Hawkree in Bismarck, ND.   Here is a link to their web site.

http://www.hawktree.com/CourseInfo/YardageSystem.htm

[redanman]

I play the Red tees  whenever I can.  Especially at National, Shinnecock and Seminole.  And when I play lefty.  I get to play with the girls then.  I love women on a golf course.  Absolutely love them.

But seriously, I don't always play the last set.  I prefer to play a course over 65-6600 yds if I can, but if it is not prudent, then bombs away if its a scramble or 3-iron if it's friendly.  If I play 6200 yds when there are 6700 yds, it's silly to wait wait wait to hit a driver or even a 3-wood, but it is silly to play 3 or 4 sets of tees with a foursome, too. (Another reason to play a 2 or 3-ball).  PLaying multiple sets of tees (More than two) is a pain in the arse.

It really is a shame that the red tees are automatically thought of as the ladies tees.  We have to put up with an extra set of tees at my club (On small tee pads) because short hitters won't play the reds.  Insane.  (And the former blues became the blacks, now the golds and the whites are now blue and........(Insert B.S. here......)  Maybe every set of tees at any given course should all be the same color.  (Front reds, middle reds, long reds)  That's the answer?  Nah.

On vacation, I always pair up my wife and myself with two ladies.  Best of all worlds.

But there is no "one" answer.  If the course is too short hazard-wize for a longer hitter, what's the point, it becomes awkward to try to fit in shots sometimes.  No course plays the same from all tees except maybe the Old Course or other links I haven't played.

[Gib_Papazian]

The low handicapper in the group should quickly evaluate what the abilities of the other players are and suggest a set of tees that will be a happy medium. Golf is about fellowship as much as striking a ball and having everyone from different tees is awkward unless with strangers.

If the turn points in the doglegs are 200 yards on some of the holes, then maybe everyone needs to move back a bit, but this idiotic machisimo I too often observe is completely out of line. What makes it worse is that more than half the time, the long hitter determined to drag everyone to the tips swings out of his shoes and couldn't keep the ball between the gutters if he had a gun to his head.

So he shoots an 84 with 6 penalty strokes - one for each beer from the cooler in his cart.  

What fun is it to shame a 16 handicapper into playing the back tees and watching him struggle all day hitting 3-wood into the par-4 holes?

That strikes me not only as stupid, but self-centered. It always ends with an exhausted and frustrated golfer who may not admit it, but deep down he is resentful that the whole day was wasted in a death struggle where he had no chance.

Plus, it takes forever to play because the weaker player is behind the 8-ball before he even starts.

The difference between me hitting a 7-iron or 5-iron into a hole is negligible, so I am happy to play whatever tees will ensure everyone has a good time. That is what golf is all about.

This is especially true when I have guests out at Olympic. If they want to play the tips on the Lake, I invariably tell them I play from the #2 set and if I know they are not a single digit, I just march right up to the #3 markers and hit it.  That way there is no discussion.

The lone exception happened a few months back when my dad had a guest out (the surgeon who operated on him) and his son who was an enormously long hitter who had recently played in the U.S. Am.

My dad and his very cocky father played the regular tees and this guy nudged me into playing the tippity tips. Plus, it was a bit damp. They wanted a Father/Son Team bet.

I was hitting fairway wood into the greens vs. his mid-irons, but with 26 putts, I managed to play him to a draw. Where I ought to have been enormously pleased with myself, I was so exhausted from having the cream every tee shot that I collapsed in a chair in the grillroom and drank tequila until my back stopped throbbing.

He was a nice kid, but I got a good dose of what it is like to be on the other end of the spectrum and truth be told, was a bit miffed that I had been shamed by this guy's father into beating my brains in for 18 holes.          

Bob is right, if you cannot regularly shoot par from the regular tees, don't bother with the back markers. The object is to have fun, not try to prove that your golfing penis is longer than the guy you're playing with.

[JohnV]

The only time I've played the Red tees is at Stanford and they were probably too tough for me.

[Gib_Papazian]

Is it common on the East Coast to have the red markers be  the back tees?

I can only think of NGLA.

[Tom_Egan]

Reading Gib's post reminded of the many guests I played with over a period of years at an East Coast US Open club.  Almost without exception, anyone with a single digit handicap who was playing the course for the first time wanted to play the "Open Tees". (about 7100 yards)  As my handicap was in the 6-8 range, I played the Open tees also.  Those were always my least favorite days at the club.  Not so much because of my scores, which suffered greatly, but because I felt that no matter how well I played I was always behind the 8-ball and would have 7-8 holes where I couldn't even reach the green in regulation.  I didn't have the guts or good sense to let these people play the tips while I went up to the still-long-enough white markers at 6600 yards.  Misplaced pride has a tendency to make me stupid.  

One interesting observation over these many rounds was that the scores of these "hot shot" guests tended to vary wildly and unpredictably.  I remember one 1 handicap player who made a 20 foot birdie putt on 18 to shoot 99!

I wish I had all those rounds back now as do-overs.

[Jeff Fortson]

NGLA
NGLA
NGLA

It doesn't seem to matter which tees you play, it's always good for all players.

Jeff F.

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,

I wonder if you would clarify your statement above. Obviously, you are a PGA member and I cannot understand how somebody with ample experience watching amateurs can suggest that it is perfectly alright for a 16 handicapper to try and tackle tees that are clearly inappropriate for his/her skill level.

My contention has always been that golfers who adhere to this stupid mentality of machisimo rarely improve.

The trick to playing golf well - unless you aspire to the highest levels of the game - is to learn to HIT SHOTS.

Lunging at a fairway wood like and angry gorilla 14 times a round is no way to develop the necessary skills to fully enjoy the game.

Any idiot can blast from the tips, but they only learn to hit three clubs well.

Driver
Fairway wood
Wedge

That is nothing more than the male version of watching the ladies do the same when their tees present a golf course that is too long.

As a professional, you are supposed to be promoting the game of golf as it is meant to be played and not some convoluted version.

The first thing I encourage the kids I coach is to learn to hit their 5-iron the distance they normally hit their 7-iron. Then, once we get the "jump-out-of-your-shoes" impulse out of their heads (temporarily), then we try to learn to manipulate the ball.

That is the art of golf. Get it? Art.

You are not doing anyone any good by encouraging play from tees where they will rarely get the opportunity to actually hit the ball in creative ways.

End of rant.

[redanman]

Gib

I think the key is to play the tees that provide you the most variety along with a challenge.  


For a longer hitter that means a set of tees that is long enough, that doesn't mean the longest.  I am not Matt Ward long, but courses too short get to be a bore or at least very frustrating unless they are very very very good-and there are very very very few of those.

[Craig Van Egmond]

JohnV,

     No you weren't one of them I was talking about.  You are a single digit handicapper who hits the ball a long way so you can play any tee you want.  Of course you hit the ball a long way it just isn't always straight.      

     I wasn't even talking about Tom 'aw shucks' Huckaby and his need to play Fort Ord from the way backs.  The dude has got game.

     I agree with Gib on this, its about hitting the shots. play the tees that are right for your ability and the game will be more fun for everyone.

[Brad Swanson]

Gib and Bob,
   I don't know if I agree with your rule that you shouldn't play from the tips if you don't shoot par from the "blues" every time.  I play to a 3 but only play about once a week.  I tire of hitting PW and SW into virtually every par 4 and driver iron into most of the par 5s on my home course.  Going back to the tips occasionally lets me hit some different shots.  Since I typically shoot in the mid 70s, I shouldn't be allowed to do this??? .

Brad Swanson  

[Will E]

I think that many times we get trapped into playing the back tees and really miss what the architect was trying to have us see in their design. Case in point was the first time I played the Ocean Course I got talked into playing it from ALL the way back. I thought the course was a joke from back there on all but a few holes. Playing it around 6900 was a fantastic treat. I would guess that most of us could figure out where we'd get the most enjoyment from. At a lot of the monster courses I almost never see the back tees even out.
When Wigler and I played the Palms the back nine would have been much more fun if we'd have mixed up the tees. Pounding driver and killing 4 iron hole after hole makes for a grumpy Shooter. All of this "Tiger Proofing" by making a course longer is a joke! The only chance I've got against guys that can go 120+ mph (I'm the old ODS @ about 110) is to play a course that requires some thought and shots. Even then I don't have much of a chance.
I don't think anything could have made the Norman course enjoyable.

[Evan_Green]

Golf courses are meant to be played from the back tees- thus I try to play from the back tees whenever possible. If I am going by myself to a course then I dont really care where the other play from (and they dont care that I want to play from the back tees). However if the purpose of the round is not to appreciate the architecture but rather for socializing or business then I think it is best to play from whatever tees your friends or business associates are comfortable playing from because it makes them feel more comfortable and unless the course is a once in a lifetime what difference does it really make?

Thus I think the issue depends on the context of the round.

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