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Jeff_Brauer

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Why "defend par" at the green?
« on: April 02, 2009, 01:33:54 PM »
I posted this in Pat's thread on Tiger Proofing, but it may get lost, so I re-post it here:

Why "defend par" at the green? 

The call for this comes from some of the same voices that praise strategy and "risk/reward". 

My question is, if the putts are so hard that there is no reward for either strategy or hitting close with skill, where is the risk/reward we seemingly cherish? 

Isn't it somewhat inherent or intuitive on a strategic course that if a hole is played well (strategy and execution) tee to green, there is a reasonable chance of birdie instead of just getting the shaft with tough contours?  To enhance strategy, it would seem that a green could fall away from one side or the other to make it harder to hit from different areas, but once on the green, shouldn't the contours be gently rolling, fairly readable and allow one close to the pin to make the putt?

And if a player hits a dozen great approach shots, is there a problem with him making a bunch of those putts and converting those good shots into birdies?  Statistically, the break even 50-50 point is about 6' (albeit, apparently going up on tour) Of the par 3 and 4 holes, golfers would have to all hit within 6' to attain 7 under, and the par 5's might allow another birdie (statistically on Tour, I think they birdie about 25% of all par 5's.) 

So, if you stiffed it all day, you might shoot 8-11 under par, but being within 6' just doesn't happen that often.  If contours are severe, and good player hit it an average of >12' from the pin on all holes, don't severe contours actually produce bogeys more than stop birdies?

I guess raising scores by reducing birdies and creating more bogeys does defend overall par.  Is it worth it, or is a balanced test of golf really better?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Anthony Gray

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2009, 01:53:37 PM »


  Jeff,

  Everything in balance. A couple tight faiways...a couple hazards in play...a couple difficult greens. Your "Design Interest" philosophy is the best way to go.


  Anthony



JMEvensky

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2009, 02:03:52 PM »
I've never understood why par needs to be defended-it does pretty well without anyone's help.

That said,IF par has to be defended,the green would seem to be the best place if it's a course designed for a lot of different skill levels.

Putting is the only part of the game that anyone can become passably good at.Further,I would guess contoured greens would be less advantageous(relatively speaking) to a very good putter.Or,the flatter the green,the bigger advantage the good putter has.

Scott Witter

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 02:06:07 PM »
Jeff:

This is a good...perhaps great question and the type that should receive many responses, we'll see?

To me I think there is nothing wrong with challenging the player, especially the better ones with some tough putting surface contours, but I have always believed that defending par was more encompassed within the whole green site and not just the PS, such that you offer.  I'll try not to stray too far from your topic.

While the PS should fit the approach shot, the recovery options around it and countless other conditions and choices, strategic and otherwise, I don't think defending par is solely focused on the PS alone.  When I think about defending par and explain this concept to clients, I rarely select the PS as the singular feature which has the greatest influence on this concept, but I do talk about how the particular design of the PS works or doesn't work with the whole green site and what I or the original architect was trying to accomplish on a larger scale of strategy and defending par as a complete design approach/philosophy.

I see your point on intuition re: strategy from tee to green, but raise you the idea that the strategy shouldn't end there so the architect should relax and 'ease up' on the golfer--not that that is what you are suggesting ;)  The bold PS's that you refer to, I believe if done well are an extension of the same, if not a bit more focused, strategic thinking the architect is asking the player to consider with every shot they execute.  Yes, some are overdone and those are not nearly as successful and probably do become penal and breakdown strategy and weaken the hole.

Personally, I have always liked the tilted PS side to side front to back, back to front and with interesting characteristics within them such as Ross swales and plateaus, or Travis's ridges, mounds and quick grade breaks.  They can be very challenging and often still require the player to put their approach shot in the correct location for a good roll at birdie.  I also enjoy a more subdued, but thoughtfully designed  PS with smaller... random undulations that make reading the surface tricky and then it is hard for the player to know precisely where to leave their approach.  The choice isn't as clear and I like the idea of keeping the player on guard.

I am quite certain that if Tom Doak responds (this is the perfect thread for his work) he will have a different take on this.  Many of his PS, however, while very bold, always seem to have a deliberate purpose that link the PS to all aspects of playing the hole and playing it well, or the opposite through poor choices made.

Now that I have thought about this more, this is a super thread and hopefully it spurs some lively debate.

Ian Larson

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 02:22:12 PM »
really good topic...

My initial thought was that a golf courses only defense against the player is it's par. Why should the golf course lay down and roll over dead at it's greens? The greens are it's last chance to defend itself, sometimes ( depending on the design ) the greens are it's only and best chance of defense.

I like all the responses so far, it's all about balance and fairness. Mother nature should be the factor to dictate fairness, not the course.

TEPaul

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2009, 02:26:14 PM »
"Why "defend par" at the green?"


JeffB:


Here's one incredibly basic and fundamental reason to "defend par" at the green or "green-end" of a golf hole.

Because the green and green-end really can be considered an inherently "democractic" area of a golf course and golf hole in that no golfer nessarily has to rely on strength and distance in that area (the one true inequality amongst the spectrum of golfers). Given that, intelligence and imagination can reign with all on the green and at the green-end.

Since STRENGTH and DISTANCE (the one TRUE physical INEQUALITY amongst golfers) is at least not an issue in that area of a hole (as it is on all the other areas of all holes) in theory even a little old lady has a chance to succeed with a shot that is as rewarded as any other golfer's, including the best of the best.

Again, that is not the case on most all other areas of all golf holes, but it sure is at the green or green-end. So, in my opinion at least, the green (and green-end) could legitimately be considered the one inherently DEMOCRATIC part of golf and architecture!!  ;)

And that's one good and truly fundamental reason to defend par at the green----ie EVERYBODY at least has a CHANCE for real succees (and with a single shot no less) at the green and green-end!

« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 02:35:20 PM by TEPaul »

Gary Slatter

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2009, 03:12:40 PM »
In a round of 18 regulation pars 50% of the shots are putts. 
Why shouldn't some of them be very challenging? I love the 3 putt, 1 putt, 3 putt, 1 putt rut I seem to in when I play the Old Course every Thursday. 
Today with no wind the greens still defended par. Same score as last week in 50 mph breeze.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 03:14:11 PM »
My good Mr. Paul,

I see what you are saying. However, one must first get to the green, as Mr. Witter notes. Would not the strong player be approaching from shorter distance, which inherently gives him an advantage, at least on all the green end (or as I call them, green surrounds) aspects that relate to the approach shot accuracy?

Would not rough, and narrower fw in the, say 300 yard range, actually favor those who play for accuracy by punishing the longer player in advance of reaching the green? If we wait for the green for equal challenges that even the lesser player MIGHT prevail, but he/she is prevailing for a 5 vs. a 3, what good is that?  I guess that is what handicaps are for.

But, greens are also the only part of the golf course everyone sees eventually.  The short hitter isn't going to see hazards at the 300+ mark, so you could make a case for defending par - for the good player who is most likely to make par - with hazards and features in areas unique to their game, no?

And for that matter, severe contours and surrounds do affect everyone as much as "allow an opportunity" for everyone, and are probably more likely to cause bogey for average players than good ones, and more likely bogey vs birdie - given the overall stats of how people usually raise their scores mostly through ineptness around the greens. (I can painfully attest to the truthfulness of that stat!)

Yours truly,

JDB

Gary,

Both Scott and I are agreeing with you on variety. I doubt anyone disagrees.  As I said, its not all black and white - I agree some holes should defend par at the green, and moreover, with the putting contours.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 03:18:38 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carl Johnson

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 03:20:23 PM »
What does it mean to "defend par at the green?"  Is there agreement on that?

My recollection from reading a while ago is that Ross is said to have defended par at the green.  Yet I also recall that his design approach called for fairly generous fairways [assume par four for the rest of my discussion], but with the idea that if you were not in a very good position off the tee, relative to pin for the day, even though in the fairway, you were generally going to have a tougher time making a par, once on the green, because you would likely end up with a very long put or end up in bunker or some other undesirable off-the-green location.  On the other hand, if your drive was properly positioned off the tee, relative to the pin location for the day, a par would come much easier, and a birdie would be a good possibility.  Putting would be easy from the correct location on the green.

So, Ross is defending par at the green by requiring (1) a very good drive and (2) a very good second shot, made easier by a good drive, (3) to be correctly positioned on the green for a real good one or two putt possibility.  So, if what I've said so far is valid, then wouldn't it be just as fair to say Ross defended par off the tee, because despite the generous fairways, you would have a more difficult time getting your par if your drive ended up in the wrong place in the fairway.  I guess you could go even further and suggest that Ross really defended par on the approach shot, because regardless of where the drive ended up, a good approach shot was still needed from a well-placed drive to put you in a good position to make par, while a spectacular approach would be needed from a poorly placed drive.  Alternative, why not say good design defends par all over the place?

I could go on, for example about my understanding of Ross and the bogey, but I'm not a architect, just a humble golfer, so I'd like to hear what the architects have to say about just what it means to them when someone says that architect X defends par at the green (as compared with defending par in some other way).  By the way, I'm not personally convinced of the value of thinking in terms of "defending par."  To me that's an arbitrary, after-the-fact number that came to the game later than bogey.  Does this mean that 100 years from now our successors will be debating "defending birdie?"  [I'd insert a wink face here if I knew how to do it.]

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 03:31:00 PM »
I think for a lesser golf, difficult greens that repel the ball are probably annoying. In general in the UK most courses dont have internal contours that throw the ball away such that a ball gets say 10 feet from the hole hits a slope and gets carted 40, 50 feet away to three putt territory, of course this can happen at the TOC...but tends be one of anti-like things to many. I think the 14th green at Augusta is the green that is probably 'silly', it makes a fool out of everyone and is probably not right..18 greens like this would surely be no fun.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Mark_Fine

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 04:16:38 PM »
Jeff,
I put up a post on this same topic a week or two ago and it got little traction.  No one wanted to hear about reducing the influence on putting even though it was never meant to be the most important aspect of the game of golf.   Hope this thread is more successful at getting some to think differently.
Mark

Greg Tallman

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 05:07:34 PM »
I posted this in Pat's thread on Tiger Proofing, but it may get lost, so I re-post it here:

Why "defend par" at the green? 

The call for this comes from some of the same voices that praise strategy and "risk/reward". 

My question is, if the putts are so hard that there is no reward for either strategy or hitting close with skill, where is the risk/reward we seemingly cherish? 

Isn't it somewhat inherent or intuitive on a strategic course that if a hole is played well (strategy and execution) tee to green, there is a reasonable chance of birdie instead of just getting the shaft with tough contours?  To enhance strategy, it would seem that a green could fall away from one side or the other to make it harder to hit from different areas, but once on the green, shouldn't the contours be gently rolling, fairly readable and allow one close to the pin to make the putt?

And if a player hits a dozen great approach shots, is there a problem with him making a bunch of those putts and converting those good shots into birdies?  Statistically, the break even 50-50 point is about 6' (albeit, apparently going up on tour) Of the par 3 and 4 holes, golfers would have to all hit within 6' to attain 7 under, and the par 5's might allow another birdie (statistically on Tour, I think they birdie about 25% of all par 5's.) 

So, if you stiffed it all day, you might shoot 8-11 under par, but being within 6' just doesn't happen that often.  If contours are severe, and good player hit it an average of >12' from the pin on all holes, don't severe contours actually produce bogeys more than stop birdies?

I guess raising scores by reducing birdies and creating more bogeys does defend overall par.  Is it worth it, or is a balanced test of golf really better?


Are you saying that defending at the green does not reward great ball striking and consistency? I think it to be quite the opposite.

Guy misses all his 12 footers while the other guy who hits it no closer than 25 feet all day lag putts well, gets it up and down from the garbage a few times and equals the good ball striking round... not likely to happen on contoured greens. They are putting a premium on shot quality and thus strategy... nit the damn fairway so you can place your approach rather than gouge it from the rough to a flat soft green and ram a 15 footer.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 05:42:32 PM »
Jeff  (and posters) - really good thread. I can't add anything except a question: I've wondered before why the phrase "defending par at the green" tends to have positive connotations while the phrase "a second-shot golf course" tends to have negative connotations.  Are those two phrases describing similar designs/design philosophies? If not, what kind of difference exists?

Peter

David_Elvins

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 05:51:34 PM »

Why "defend par" at the green? 
Because no-one ever lost a ball four putting.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

JESII

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 05:52:50 PM »
I think the word "defend" has negative connotations on here because the truth is, par does not need to be defended...I know when I use the term in the title I intend to affiliate it with interest and character and strategy and such...not...punish mistakes and force three and four putts.

A bland course up to the green, but with really cool greens is miles ahead of a really exciting course up to the green with flat, soft, slow greens...Winged Foot West is my example of the first category.

JESII

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 05:54:20 PM »
Further,I would guess contoured greens would be less advantageous(relatively speaking) to a very good putter.Or,the flatter the green,the bigger advantage the good putter has.

I couldn't disagree more...long difficult putts will be a huge advantage to the better putter...

JMEvensky

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 06:09:16 PM »
Further,I would guess contoured greens would be less advantageous(relatively speaking) to a very good putter.Or,the flatter the green,the bigger advantage the good putter has.

I couldn't disagree more...long difficult putts will be a huge advantage to the better putter...

Every putt is a huge advantage to the better putter.

The bad putter will make few putts,irrespective of length or contour.The good putter will make fewer putts on contoured greens than he will on flat greens.

The bad putter can't make fewer than the 0 he's already making.If the good putter makes less than he would on flat greens,doesn't that mean their respective difference has lessened?




Scott Witter

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 06:56:16 PM »
Peter:

I have for many years heard both of those phrases, but didn't think of them as positive and negative in the way you did...but I do see exactly what you mean.  I wonder if defending par at the green has received praise because 

JESII

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2009, 07:00:34 PM »
Further,I would guess contoured greens would be less advantageous(relatively speaking) to a very good putter.Or,the flatter the green,the bigger advantage the good putter has.

I couldn't disagree more...long difficult putts will be a huge advantage to the better putter...

Every putt is a huge advantage to the better putter.

The bad putter will make few putts,irrespective of length or contour.The good putter will make fewer putts on contoured greens than he will on flat greens.

The bad putter can't make fewer than the 0 he's already making.If the good putter makes less than he would on flat greens,doesn't that mean their respective difference has lessened?





I'd like to stay under Huckaby's radar with this...but no, their respective difference has not lessened because the bad putter is going to three putt most every green on the difficult ones, and the good putter really doens't make all that many putts of any length on flat greens anyway.

Scott Witter

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2009, 07:21:26 PM »
I don't know what the hell just happened...I was in the middle of typing and all of a sudden my message was sent???

Anyway, where was I...because the green site is where so much attention is placed by just about all golfers.  I think too many people take for granted the experience from tee to green all the while focusing their thoughts about when they arrive at the green and for the moment when they have to face those devilish few, but all important putting strokes.  I am not explaining this very well..sorry.  As I think about the best architects from the past and those of the present they are all well known for their routing, their strategy, the total experience, etc., but most are easily as well known, if not more so, for their great putting surfaces, but almost as the climax to the great work they have created from the tee.  

A "second shot golf course" to me has meant that there isn't much to challenge or engage the player when standing on the tee and all of the architect's focus, and thus the players, starts from the landing area with most of the consideration given to the approach shot and where they will be most successful on or around the PS.  I think these two phrases are similar in the philosophy they describe.  One begins more generically...looking in from the outside...wondering what is all the fuss about, the other is at the heart where every single move one makes is rippled with consequence...something the player didn't realize fully when standing in the landing area, but which seemed to be relatively benign at first.  Not sure I presented my thoughts very well tonight :P

Mark_F

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2009, 08:01:32 PM »

Why "defend par" at the green? 
Because no-one ever lost a ball four putting.

You lose it when you throw it into the bushes afterwards, though.

You could defend par from the tee without losing a ball.

Jeff  (and posters) - really good thread. I can't add anything except a question: I've wondered before why the phrase "defending par at the green" tends to have positive connotations while the phrase "a second-shot golf course" tends to have negative connotations.  Are those two phrases describing similar designs/design philosophies? If not, what kind of difference exists?

I have wondered this too.  If a classic "second shot" course is your wide fairways and big greens a'la Augusta, TOC and Royal Melbourne, then what are Oakmont and Pine Valley and NGLA?

Second shot courses may have a negative connotation because the greens have easy and difficult pin positions, and the wide fairways mean that if the pins are easy, then so too is the course, relatively speaking. There have been several threads in the past about this, most notably one years ago about Royal Melbourne West.

Maybe defending par at the green means smaller greens with more exacting green complexes?

Ross Waldorf

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2009, 08:19:51 PM »
This is a very interesting topic. I find it hard to think clearly here about how this affects all levels of golfer, which is why I have so much respect for the architects who make the design choices. But looking at it from the limited perspective of my own game, there are a few points that come to mind.

The first is that I generally agree with Tom Paul's point about "democracy," thinking specifically about my game, and what it is that I enjoy about a golf course. I am a decent driver of the ball, not too short and not too curvy. But I definitely do not hit the ball super straight most of the time, so having a bit of room to maneuver in the fairway is helpful with my game. Super tight courses make me a little nuts, because I'm constantly looking around in the rough or worse for my tee shots. I hate that (not that there shouldn't be golf courses that demand superior control off the tee, just that I don't like 'em as much).

Now, having said all that, I'm also not a wizard around (or on!) the green. But I really don't find what Adrian said to be true for me -- that is, contours that repel the ball around the green don't bother me so much. I think that kind of stuff is fun. The recovery shots are fun. Trying to get out of gnarly rough, or trying to recover from really difficult first shot hazards isn't as much fun. For me at least.

It's true -- no one ever lost a ball four putting . . .

My $.02.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2009, 08:45:33 PM »
Jeff:

I guess it all goes back to what you mean by "defending par".  Personally, my main goal has always been just to make it pretty hard for a good player to make birdies, while giving everyone else a reasonable chance at (net) par.  Bobby Jones stated it better than I could when writing about Augusta [unfortunately paraphrased since I don't have his book at home]:

"We believe that a birdie should result not just from two good shots, but should require either a great approach, or the holing of a putt of more than common difficulty."

The emphasis on my greens is never on PUTTING, but on making the approach shot and recovery play difficult ... and on making it more difficult from one side than from the other.  Sometimes, that will produce three-putts if you leave yourself on the wrong side of a contour inside the green ... but generally you should be able to two-putt if you leave it on the correct side of that contour.  The intent of the contour is to make the good player hedge to the safe side, instead of firing right at the flag and always being within birdie range after an average 9-iron miss.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2009, 08:49:34 PM »

Why "defend par" at the green? 

Because, at the conclusion of play on a hole, that's where everyone must end up.

Other than the tee, it's the only common area used by every* golfer.



Tom_Doak

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Re: Why "defend par" at the green?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2009, 09:07:45 PM »
Or, as David Duval famously said in the press conference after shooting 59 in Vegas, when a writer asked him about making the rough more severe:  How many fairways do you think I missed on my way to a 59?

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