Personal Top courses list

[Bill Shamleffer]

There is a lot of discussion about specific golf course rankings and the whole process of ranking golf courses.  I am not a world traveler, and therefore would never dream of trying to rank the best courses.  And that is one of the common knocks against these lists.  How many of the raters played a specific course, how can one rate courses if they have not played a significant number of great courses.  Etc.

But most of us are likely well informed about most of the great courses in a specific geographic area (city or state or region).

I think it would be interesting if we submitted our favorite courses for a specified geographic area in which we believe ourselves to be well-traveled.

Set your own region, you own criteria, and you own#.  I find the ranking process to be trickier than I expected, but a fun process.  I will begin this exercise.

St. Louis area golf courses:

This is my personal bakers dozen for St. Louis area golf courses.  I have ranked them beginning with most favorite.  My personal criteria is a course of very good architectural standards, ranked in the order I would most want to play it on a regular basis.  I have a personal preference for old style courses that max out between 6500-6800 yards that do not require a power game, but do encourage a variety of strategic options.  I do not look for perfect conditions or overtly lush courses, but I do like greens in very good condition.  I also have a preference for courses that encourage walking.

1. St. Louis C.C.
          (Charles Blair McDonald)
2. Westwood
          (Harold Paddock)
3. Bellerive
          (Robert Trent Jones, Sr.)
4. Normandie
         (Robert Foulis)
5. Fox Run
          (Gary Kern)
6. Glen Echo
         (Robert Foulis)
7. Algonquin (I grew up caddying at this course, so likely some strong bias)
         (Robert Foulis)
8. Old Warson
         (Robert Trent Jones, Sr.)
9. Norwood - West Course
          (Wayne Stiles)
10. Annbriar (Waterloo, Il.)
          (Dr. Michael Hurdzan)
11. Crescent Farms (formerly The Players Club, formerly Crescent C.C.)
          (Gary Kern)
12. Norwood - East course
          (Wayne Stiles)
13. Forest Park (current 27 holes)
         (Robert Foulis)

The significant courses I have not seen include the following:
Aberdeen, Country Club of St. Albans, Fox Creek, Gateway National, Old Hickory, Persimmon Woods, Stone Wolf, Winghaven & Wolf Hollow.

[Tim Gavrich]

Greater Hartford area:

1. Yale GC
2. TPC River Highlands
3. Hartford GC
4. The Ranch GC
5. CC of Farmington
6. Wampanoag GC
7. Hop Meadow CC
8. Gillette Ridge GC
9. Wintonbury Hills
10. Manchester CC
11. Fairview Farms GC
12. Tower Ridge CC

I can't include courses like Shuttle Meadow, Waterbury CC, Ellington Ridge, and a couple others because I haven't played them.

[Cliff Hamm]

Southeastern New England:

Newport National
Waverly Oaks
Triggs
Shennecossett
Blackstone National

[Brad Tufts]

I can do Mass., by personal preference:

1.  Essex
2.  TCC (members, havent played composite)
3.  Myopia
4.  Salem
5.  Taconic
6.  Kittansett
7.  Winchester
8.  Concord
9.  Brae Burn
10.  Eastward Ho!
11.  Longmeadow
12.  Plymouth
13.  Orchards
14.  Red Tail
15.  Charles River
16.  Tedesco
17.  Oak Hill
18.  TPC Boston
19.  Stockbridge
20.  Vesper
21.  International-Oaks
22.  Wahconah
23.  Waverly Oaks
24.  Wachusett
25.  CC of Greenfield

I have not played Boston GC, Old Sandwich, Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Worcester, Woods Hole, Sankaty Head, Wyantenuck, or Berkshire Hills, which would effect the above list.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill S:

Good stuff -- as Eastwood was famous for saying, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Plenty of good info from those who know their own territories. I'll be happy to post my recommended Jersey list -- I have added info on a few other states from other threads posted previously.

Just a quick question -- you have the RTJ course at Bellerive as #3 in the state. Is that rating based upon hosting previous majors - what makes the RTJ layout there unique because frankly from those I know well who have played there they don't see much there. Or is the high rating tied to the fact that Missouri golf overall is not that superior in terms of overall depth.

Forgive my ignorance -- I've only played in the state 3-4 times.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

Your list is really interesting.

I was speaking with Geoff Walsh the other day and he shared with me that Essex is one of his Top Five courses, PERIOD.

His assessment, and your concurrance, immediately moves it Wayyyy up in my Must Play list.

Thanks!

[Paul Richards]

First, there is Heaven.

Then there is Cypress Point.

Then there is Royal County Down.

And then, there is everything else.....

 

[Cristian]

OK; a non US contribution limited to courses which are guaranteed worthwhile to visit and play:

Netherlands

1. Haagsche (Royal The Hague G&C)-Colt
2. De Pan-Colt
3. Noordwijk-Pennink
4. Kennemer-Colt
5. Eindhoven-Colt
6. Hilversum-Burrows, Colt?
7. Rosendael-Del Court van krimpen/Pennink
8. Toxandria-Morrison, Colt, sir Guy Campbell


Belgium

1. Royal Zoute-Colt
2. Ravenstein-Simpson
3. Spa - Simpson
4. Royal Antwerp-Simpson/W.Park Jr
5. Limburgsche (Houthalen) Hawtree
6. Sart-Tilman - Simpson

Not played; Royal Ostend

Luxemburg:
Grand Ducal

Composite Benelux:

1. Haagsche
2. De Pan
3. Noordwijk
4. Kennemer
5. Royal Zoute
6. Eindhoven
7. Ravenstein
8. Spa
9. Royal Antwerp
10. Hilversum
11. Rosendael
12. Toxandria
13. Houthalen
14. Sart-Tilman
15. Grand Ducal

[Jeff_Stettner]

Bill,
I will see your STL and raise you...

1. St. Louis CC -- heads and tails the best of the bunch.
2. Old Hawthorne -- It's in Columbia... cheating, yes, but still worth putting down
3. Bellerive -- Much improved since Rees tinkered
4. Norwood West -- Strong test of golf
5. Persimmon Woods -- Gem of a track that nobody mentions
6. Old Warson -- Some good holes but also some goofy stuff. Strange routing.
7. Westwood -- Cut down the trees and it could be number 2 in the region
8. Fox Run -- Can be the toughest course in the state
9. St. Albans (Morrish) -- Beautiful bunker work and plenty of variety
10. Gateway National -- the first public course... a sad statement for non-club members
11. Meadowbrook -- Solid if unspectacular
12. Annbriar -- Great front, odd back
13. Glen Echo -- Neglected
15. Normandie -- See Glen Echo
16. Norwood East -- Fun

[Kyle Christensen]

Upstate South Carolina-

1. Greenville CC. Chanticleer
2. Cliffs at Keowee Vineyards
3. Greenville CC. Riverside
4. Furman Golf Club
5. Green Valley C.C.
6. Boscobel G.C (best deal in the upstate)
7-10 Other Cliffs community courses, take your pick.
11. Reserve at Lake Keowee
12. Walker Course at Clemson

[Brad Tufts]

Mike C...

Essex really is a treat.  I'm always amazed that it doesn't get more recognition nationally.  I worked at Myopia for a year, and while I love both sister courses, I do like Essex more.

I've probably played it 20-25 times, and it gets better every time.  A late afternoon there is the stuff of dreams.  Every hole isn't perfect, but the course is diverse, strategic, and the very definition of Ross right before he and his associates brought his brand of design to the rest of the US and Canada.

They have been moving the course back towards a more firm and fast profile, a plan started by GCA-er Pat K. back about 3-4 years ago.  This has just put it over the top in quality, just in time for the Curtis Cup next year.

[Cory Lewis]

Wilmington, Delaware area(within 15 miles):

1. DuPont (DuPont)
2. Wilmington (South)
3. Bidermann
4. Fieldstone
5. Wilmington (North)
6. Hartefeld National
7. Deerfield
8. Rock Manor
9. Kennett Square
10. Delaware National

[Bill Shamleffer]

Bill,
I will see your STL and raise you...

1. St. Louis CC -- heads and tails the best of the bunch.
2. Old Hawthorne -- It's in Columbia... cheating, yes, but still worth putting down
3. Bellerive -- Much improved since Rees tinkered
4. Norwood West -- Strong test of golf
5. Persimmon Woods -- Gem of a track that nobody mentions
6. Old Warson -- Some good holes but also some goofy stuff. Strange routing.
7. Westwood -- Cut down the trees and it could be number 2 in the region
8. Fox Run -- Can be the toughest course in the state
9. St. Albans (Morrish) -- Beautiful bunker work and plenty of variety
10. Gateway National -- the first public course... a sad statement for non-club members
11. Meadowbrook -- Solid if unspectacular
12. Annbriar -- Great front, odd back
13. Glen Echo -- Neglected
15. Normandie -- See Glen Echo
16. Norwood East -- Fun

Jeff,

Good St. Louis list.  Thank you for your contributions.  It would be interesting to see if a few of the other St. Louis posters will also add their lists to see how the consensus develops.  I do think #1 is obvious for St. Louis.

I see no problem adding Old Hawthorne.  It is not a Lake of the Ozarks course, and I am sure it is far and above everything else in Columbia/Jefferson City, so it seems quite fair to me to lump it in with the St. Louis area courses.

I also can not argue with your rankings of some of the courses I listed as not seen yet.  I have heard good things about St. Albans and Gateway.  I actually moved to Springfield, Massachusetts in 2001 after living the first 36+ years of my life in St. Louis.  I really need to play Gateway National during one of my St. Louis visits.  I do like Meadowbrook and I would likely place in my top 15.

I see you also do not list Boone Valley.  Is this because you have not played their, or is this because you are not a big fan of Boone Valley?  Personally I would have to get to about 20th before I would consider ranking Boone Valley.  But I have only been out there twice.

[Jim Nugent]

Bill, too many new courses in the St. Louis area I'm not familiar with to give you a meaningful list.  Years ago, no question that SLCC was my number one, with Westwood not that far behind.  A big gap after those two. 

[Jeff_Stettner]

Bill,
I have played Boone Valley.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Bill S:

Good stuff -- as Eastwood was famous for saying, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Plenty of good info from those who know their own territories. I'll be happy to post my recommended Jersey list -- I have added info on a few other states from other threads posted previously.

Just a quick question -- you have the RTJ course at Bellerive as #3 in the state. Is that rating based upon hosting previous majors - what makes the RTJ layout there unique because frankly from those I know well who have played there they don't see much there. Or is the high rating tied to the fact that Missouri golf overall is not that superior in terms of overall depth.

Forgive my ignorance -- I've only played in the state 3-4 times.

Matt,

I unfortunately St. Louis is lacking in great golf course architecture.  St. Louis C. C. is THE great course in St. Louis.  When doing my ranking, St. Louis is on my list as Tiger Woods was on the World Rankings list before his knee injury - nothing else even comes close.

The good early courses in St. Louis are dominated by the Foulis brothers.  On my list that included Glen Echo, Normandie, Algonquin, and Forest Park.  I like their courses very much and think they are very fun courses with some interesting strategic options offered.

One of the problems for St. Louis courses is the environment.  The soil has quite a bit of clay and is not conducive to great golf course turf.  Also, most St. Louis courses (including St. Louis C.C.) have a lot of trees that come into play.  It is common on many of the course to be in the fairway at certain spots and have branches blocking your path to the hole.  Having grown up with this type of golf, I enjoy the challenge presented by having to play around the trees, even in the fairways.  Only in the last few years have I begun to appreciate the benefit of keeping trees out of play, but I still think they can serve a purpose on some courses.

Other than the Foulis brothers' courses, St. Louis C.C., and Wayne Stiles' 36 holes at Norwood C.C., not much of any significance happened in St. Louis golf architecture until RTJ did Old Warson and then Bellerive in the 1950s.  Then again nothing more of any significance happened until the 1980s.  So that was half a century with only 2 significant courses added to the region.

I would agree that if you drop Bellerive in New Jersey it may not make a top 25 for the state.  Nevertheless, I do think it is an excellent example of a RTJ championship course.  It is a brute of a course, mainly about power golf.  But it will challenge you and will require your best game to do well there.

It is a big course, with big greens.  It lacks the quaintness and variety of St. Louis C.C., but it also does not have any silly holes.  Its biggest knock may be that it is somewhat boring, but I think this is a simplification of the course.  I actually see some minimalism to the course.  I do like courses with blind shots, with some quirks, and I am OK with a course that is not always "fair".  Bellerive is a fair course that rewards good shots and punishes bad shots.  Personally I could never play most of my golf at Bellerive, but if you want a course that will test your game to the max in St. Louis, in my opinion there is no better choice then Bellerive.

In addition, I do like the most recent renovations.  I think the current bunkering and some of the changes to the green have visually improved the course, and added a bit of fun to the course.

Perhaps Bellerive is St. Louis's Butler National.  I have never been to Butler, although from what I have read I expect Butler is the harder of the two courses.  But Bellerive is St. Louis's brute of a course, and it is a good example of that style of golf course architecture.

Finally, I did not take tournament history into any consideration.  But it is interesting to see the list of champions at Bellerive:
1965 US Open - Gary Player
1981 US Mid-Am - Jim Holtgrieve
1992 PGA Championship - Nick Price
2004 US Senior Open - Peter Jacobson
2008 Western Open - Camilo Villegas

I do not think this list says anything conclusive about the course, but it is a good list of winners.

On a side note, Jim Healey is the dean of golf history in St. Louis.  He has a couple of contributions on this site, one per Glen Echo and the other per the Foulis brothers.  His book GOLFING BEFORE THE ARCH is a must read by all St. Louis golfers.  In addition his web site Golfing Before the Arch - http://stlgolfhistory.com/ - is a great resource for not just St. Louis golf, but for all golf.  On his site besides many links and details per St. Louis golf, he also has a section that lists the winners and sites of all of the men’s and women’s major professional and amateur golf tournaments - http://stlgolfhistory.com/results.html.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Bill S:

Good stuff -- as Eastwood was famous for saying, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Plenty of good info from those who know their own territories. I'll be happy to post my recommended Jersey list -- I have added info on a few other states from other threads posted previously.

Just a quick question -- you have the RTJ course at Bellerive as #3 in the state. Is that rating based upon hosting previous majors - what makes the RTJ layout there unique because frankly from those I know well who have played there they don't see much there. Or is the high rating tied to the fact that Missouri golf overall is not that superior in terms of overall depth.

Forgive my ignorance -- I've only played in the state 3-4 times.

Matt,

I wanted to add some additional comments to golf architecture in St. Louis; the last 25 years saw quite a boom in St. Louis golf courses.  First, St. Louis finally had some very good public golf courses.  Before 1980 St. Louis public golf was pathetic per the quality of courses available.  Fortunately, there is now a full range of quality and price levels among St. Louis public golf courses.  Secondly, quite a few interesting private courses were also added to the region in the last quarter century.

Although the St. Louis region now has courses by Fazio (Missouri Bluffs), Nicklaus(Stonewolf), Player (Tapawingo), Weiskopf (St. Albans) & Palmer (Spencer T. Olin).  It is some of the less "famous" architects that have made the bigger splash in St. Louis golf architecture.  These include Gary Kern, Michael Hurdzen, P.B. Dye, Bob Goalby, Keith Foster & Hale Irwin.

Gary Kern has probably designed the most course in St. Louis over the last 25 years (10+ courses), both public and private.  His public courses are some of the best public courses, and are typically decent priced courses for the level of quality.  So he must charge a reasonable fee.  His courses are challenging while still being fun, yet are not overly expensive to maintain.

If you ever do get back to St. Louis, play St. Louis C.C. over all else, but then find and play a Gary Kern course (Fox Run his is best in town).  I see that he does have one New England course that he designed with Hale Irwin, The New England C.C. in Bellingham, MA.

[Jim Colton]

Any Chicago-area GCA'ers willing to come up with a collective rating of Chicagoland publics?  Send me your rankings via PM and I can compile the results.  Here's a list of potential candidates:

Cog Hill (Dubs)
Cog Hill #2
Cantigny
Pine Meadow
Harborside (Port)
Harborside (Starboard)
Prairie Landing
Thunderhawk
Orchard Valley
The Glen Club
Heritage Bluffs
Chalet Hills
Glenwoodie
Foxford Hills
Stonewall Orchard
George Dunne National
White Deer Rune
Mistwood
Makray Memorial
Whisper Creek
Big Run
Water's Edge
Golf Club of Illinois
Village Links of Glen Ellyn
Ruffled Feathers
Klein Creek
Schaumburg Golf Club
Arrowhead
Bolingbrook
Shepherd's Crook
Seven Bridges
Balmoral Woods
Coyote Run
Peter Jans (forward or reverse)
Odyssey
Steeple Chase
Willow Crest

[PCCraig]

Chicago area:

1.  Reverse Jans National - transcends golf.  Takes the game to a higher plane.  Head and shoulders above all others.

2.  Old Elm

3.  Shoreacres

4.  Skokie

5.  OFCC North

6.  Lawsonia (geographic stretch, but worth it)

7.  Lost Dunes (ditto)

8.  Medinah 3

9.  Butler

10. Exmoor

11. Chicago Golf

12.  Glen View Club

13.  North Shore

14.  Briarwood

15.  Beverly

16.  Glen Club

17.  Black Sheep

18.  Dubsdread

19.  Knollwood

20.  Itasca

I agree with your high rank of Old Elm...can you explain why you like it over SA?

Mine would be the following (only courses I have played more than once or twice);

1) Shoreacres

2) Old Elm

3) Chicago Golf

4) Glen View Club

5) Butler

6) #4

7) Skokie

Bob O'

9) Knollwood

10) Beverly

11) Kemper Lakes

12) Conway Farms

13) Black Sheep

14) Medinah #3

and...


#1,079) Cinder Ridge

[PCCraig]

Any Chicago-area GCA'ers willing to come up with a collective rating of Chicagoland publics?  Send me your rankings via PM and I can compile the results.  Here's a list of potential candidates:

Cog Hill (Dubs)
Cog Hill #2
Cantigny
Pine Meadow
Harborside (Port)
Harborside (Starboard)
Prairie Landing
Thunderhawk
Orchard Valley
The Glen Club
Heritage Bluffs
Chalet Hills
Glenwoodie
Foxford Hills
Stonewall Orchard
George Dunne National
White Deer Rune
Mistwood
Makray Memorial
Whisper Creek
Big Run
Water's Edge
Golf Club of Illinois
Village Links of Glen Ellyn
Ruffled Feathers
Klein Creek
Schaumburg Golf Club
Arrowhead
Bolingbrook
Shepherd's Crook
Seven Bridges
Balmoral Woods
Coyote Run
Peter Jans (forward or reverse)
Odyssey
Steeple Chase
Willow Crest

This list is a blast from the past for many. I'll exclude the ones that I would have no problem never going back to;



Orchard Valley
Heritage Bluffs
Chalet Hills
Glenwoodie
Foxford Hills
Stonewall Orchard
Mistwood
Makray Memorial
Whisper Creek
Big Run
Water's Edge
Golf Club of Illinois
Village Links of Glen Ellyn
Ruffled Feathers
Klein Creek
Schaumburg Golf Club
Arrowhead
Shepherd's Crook
Seven Bridges
Balmoral Woods
Odyssey
Willow Crest


So that would leave me with;

Cog Hill (Dubs)
Cog Hill #2
Cantigny
Pine Meadow
Harborside (Port)
Harborside (Starboard)
Prairie Landing
Thunderhawk
The Glen Club
George Dunne National
White Deer Run
Peter Jans (forward or reverse)
Steeple Chase

Quite the list!  

So I will rank them...

1 Cog Hill (Dubs)
2 The Glen Club
3 Thunderhawk
4 Pine Meadow
5 Cantigny
6 George Dunne National
7 White Deer Run
8 Steeple Chase
9 Prairie Landing
10 Cog Hill #2
11 Harborside (Port)
12 Harborside (Starboard)
13 Peter Jans (forward or reverse)

[PCCraig]

I agree with your high rank of Old Elm...can you explain why you like it over SA?

Yes.

 

[Joel Zuckerman]

Let me chime in with my opinion of the Best of the Best in greater Hilton Head--my home turf:

1--May River Golf Club
2--Colleton River--Nicklaus
3--Secession Club
4--Harbour Town
5--Chechessee Creek
6--Old Tabby Links
7--Long Cove
8--Colleton River--Dye
9--Oldfield
10--Haig Point

[PCCraig]

Bill S:

Good stuff -- as Eastwood was famous for saying, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Plenty of good info from those who know their own territories. I'll be happy to post my recommended Jersey list -- I have added info on a few other states from other threads posted previously.

Just a quick question -- you have the RTJ course at Bellerive as #3 in the state. Is that rating based upon hosting previous majors - what makes the RTJ layout there unique because frankly from those I know well who have played there they don't see much there. Or is the high rating tied to the fact that Missouri golf overall is not that superior in terms of overall depth.

Forgive my ignorance -- I've only played in the state 3-4 times.

Matt,

I unfortunately St. Louis is lacking in great golf course architecture.  St. Louis C. C. is THE great course in St. Louis.  When doing my ranking, St. Louis is on my list as Tiger Woods was on the World Rankings list before his knee injury - nothing else even comes close.

The good early courses in St. Louis are dominated by the Foulis brothers.  On my list that included Glen Echo, Normandie, Algonquin, and Forest Park.  I like their courses very much and think they are very fun courses with some interesting strategic options offered.

One of the problems for St. Louis courses is the environment.  The soil has quite a bit of clay and is not conducive to great golf course turf.  Also, most St. Louis courses (including St. Louis C.C.) have a lot of trees that come into play.  It is common on many of the course to be in the fairway at certain spots and have branches blocking your path to the hole.  Having grown up with this type of golf, I enjoy the challenge presented by having to play around the trees, even in the fairways.  Only in the last few years have I begun to appreciate the benefit of keeping trees out of play, but I still think they can serve a purpose on some courses.

Other than the Foulis brothers' courses, St. Louis C.C., and Wayne Stiles' 36 holes at Norwood C.C., not much of any significance happened in St. Louis golf architecture until RTJ did Old Warson and then Bellerive in the 1950s.  Then again nothing more of any significance happened until the 1980s.  So that was half a century with only 2 significant courses added to the region.

I would agree that if you drop Bellerive in New Jersey it may not make a top 25 for the state.  Nevertheless, I do think it is an excellent example of a RTJ championship course.  It is a brute of a course, mainly about power golf.  But it will challenge you and will require your best game to do well there.

It is a big course, with big greens.  It lacks the quaintness and variety of St. Louis C.C., but it also does not have any silly holes.  Its biggest knock may be that it is somewhat boring, but I think this is a simplification of the course.  I actually see some minimalism to the course.  I do like courses with blind shots, with some quirks, and I am OK with a course that is not always "fair".  Bellerive is a fair course that rewards good shots and punishes bad shots.  Personally I could never play most of my golf at Bellerive, but if you want a course that will test your game to the max in St. Louis, in my opinion there is no better choice then Bellerive.

In addition, I do like the most recent renovations.  I think the current bunkering and some of the changes to the green have visually improved the course, and added a bit of fun to the course.

Perhaps Bellerive is St. Louis's Butler National.  I have never been to Butler, although from what I have read I expect Butler is the harder of the two courses.  But Bellerive is St. Louis's brute of a course, and it is a good example of that style of golf course architecture.

Finally, I did not take tournament history into any consideration.  But it is interesting to see the list of champions at Bellerive:
1965 US Open - Gary Player
1981 US Mid-Am - Jim Holtgrieve
2004 US Senior Open - Peter Jacobson
2008 Western Open - Camilo Villegas

I do not think this list says anything conclusive about the course, but it is a good list of winners.

On a side note, Jim Healey is the dean of golf history in St. Louis.  He has a couple of contributions on this site, one per Glen Echo and the other per the Foulis brothers.  His book GOLFING BEFORE THE ARCH is a must read by all St. Louis golfers.  In addition his web site Golfing Before the Arch - http://stlgolfhistory.com/ - is a great resource for not just St. Louis golf, but for all golf.  On his site besides many links and details per St. Louis golf, he also has a section that lists the winners and sites of all of the men’s and women’s major professional and amateur golf tournaments - http://stlgolfhistory.com/results.html.

Bill-

Thanks for all the neat info on STL golf. The only courses I have played down there while visiting the future in-laws are Bellerieve, Old Warson, SLCC, Forest Park, Algonquin CC, and Gateway National.

I happen to love BCC...it gets a bad rap on here but overall the course does something for me. It may be a stretch to call it a Butler-like course because personally I don't think it is that hard, even from the tips. I thought that Old Warson was very boring except for a couple good holes. SLCC is just awesome. Forest Park is a pretty neat city course. ACC was darn good when I played it last fall, not great but a ton of fun to play. Gateway is good for the land given...not much to work with there.

[Dan_Callahan]

I have not played Boston GC, Old Sandwich, Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Worcester, Woods Hole, Sankaty Head, Wyantenuck, or Berkshire Hills, which would effect the above list.

Have you played Dedham Country and Polo Club? I would put that ahead of Red Tail and Waverly Oaks. I would also have the Orchards and Longmeadow ahead of Taconic, but I am probably in the minority on that. No Crumpin Fox? That might squeek onto my list ahead of Waverly. I would also have Blackstone on there somewhere.

Definitely play Wyantenuck if you get the chance. The architecture might not surpass some on your list, but the combination of fun layout and great atmosphere put it near the top for me. If I was looking for one play, I would go with some of the big names like Myopia and Kittansett. But for a course I would love to play every day, it is hard to find anything better than Wyantenuck.

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Dan,

I have played Dedham, I actually meant it to be #25.  I enjoyed it, although it is pretty short.  In my one play, I hit something like 12-13 wedges into greens.  I'm a fan of Waverly (Soon to be RIP), and of Red Tail (only one play though).  I think Red Tail is head and shoulders ahead of WO, and the two Pinehills.

Taconic for me is better than both Orch. and Longmeadow.  Ironically, its playability puts it slightly ahead of Longmeadow for me, whereas the reason it's ahead of the Orchards is that Taconic is more challenging.  I was a member of the Orchards for 2008 (no longer, just couldn't find time to get out there) and it's a great course, but I thought it just wasn't that hard.

I like Blackstone, although it is so demanding in places it can be a slog.  There are also a few throwaway holes.  Not a bad place for a round though if in that area.

As for Crumpin-Fox, I've played it 2-3 times, and I'm not a huge fan.  There are certainly good stretches and it is by no means awful, but it alternates between cramped/strangely conditioned and wide open and pretty.

I have also not played the Ranch, which I have heard is decent.